Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 You are assuming the truth of your theory -- ie the Sabres didn't respond, so it MUST have been because of the "programming." To which I respond: 60-70% of the players in the NHL would have wussed out in the same way the Sabres did -- and it's not because of "programming." It's because most of them don't have that response wired into the way they play the game. The key is that the 30%-40% of players who are wired to respond must do so and must do so immediately and forcefully. But those 30% didn't. Why? What was holding them back? I would be offended if I had to sit down for 20 minutes with Lindy to have him explain response. Just the fact that someone in that room didn't go ape at somepoint in the game or the next morning and the team had to be brought in for individual talks is a huge red flag. A real captain would have gone to Lindy in private and gotten blessing to go balistic on his own to make sure his guys in that room knew they can't slink away from a situation like that. Or if your captain is a puss....then Gaustad, Regehr, someone like that needs to do it. This 5 hours of individual meetings is as MickeyMouse as you can get. Are there no men on this team? I would be offended to be in that meeting, and just the fact that was going on would be message enough and I would be embarrased. I would make it clear within 15 seconds that it would be taken care of this Wednesday. This is just one giant layer-cake of failure.
nfreeman Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 But those 30% didn't. Why? What was holding them back? I would be offended if I had to sit down for 20 minutes with Lindy to have him explain response. Just the fact that someone in that room didn't go ape at somepoint in the game or the next morning and the team had to be brought in for individual talks is a huge red flag. A real captain would have gone to Lindy in private and gotten blessing to go balistic on his own to make sure his guys in that room knew they can't slink away from a situation like that. Or if your captain is a puss....then Gaustad, Regehr, someone like that needs to do it. This 5 hours of individual meetings is as MickeyMouse as you can get. Are there no men on this team? I would be offended to be in that meeting, and just the fact that was going on would be message enough and I would be embarrased. I would make it clear within 15 seconds that it would be taken care of this Wednesday. This is just one giant layer-cake of failure. You might be offended to be in that meeting, but if you were one of the Sabres, you would have no right to be offended -- or to do anything other than hang your head in shame. You are right -- it's a huge red flag. And you are right about what a real captain would have done. Do you think Pommer at ANY stage of his career (i.e. before Lindy was finished neutering him) would have gone after Lucic OR demanded that his teammates do so? I certainly don't. And you might even be right that the red flag signifies a problem with Lindy. My point is simply that there is zero evidence to support this, and the weight of the facts supports an inherent lack of heart in the players as being the cause -- not a neutering of previously-tough guys by a micromanaging Lindy.
JWell Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 At this point... if the sabres announced they have traded jochen hecht for george parros i would do that in a heartbeat. yea we lose a player that can get us 25+ points per season in hecht... but we get a guy who fights and will stick up for say our player that gets 60+ points (Vanek, Roy, etc) or a guy that is the face of US hockey (Miller) in Parros.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 You might be offended to be in that meeting, but if you were one of the Sabres, you would have no right to be offended -- or to do anything other than hang your head in shame. You are right -- it's a huge red flag. And you are right about what a real captain would have done. Do you think Pommer at ANY stage of his career (i.e. before Lindy was finished neutering him) would have gone after Lucic OR demanded that his teammates do so? I certainly don't. And you might even be right that the red flag signifies a problem with Lindy. My point is simply that there is zero evidence to support this, and the weight of the facts supports an inherent lack of heart in the players as being the cause -- not a neutering of previously-tough guys by a micromanaging Lindy. If you have a bunch of gutless/heartless players.....and it isn't Ruff....then who is it? Who is responsible for bringing in at least 1 player on a roster of 20 who will respond with the most basic hockey instincts in a hectic situation? Some of us have been saying for years that there is a problem. All we wanted was a chance to figure out where that problem evolved. Was it coach? Players? GM? Ownership? Well going into the year, the appologists stood up for the coach, and the gm...saying the "shackles" were off. The Gm brought in many high priced players and the team is spending the most cash of any franchise out there this year. Everyone wanted to blame the previous owner.....some of these same people who would get upset if you questioned that owner at the time. Ok....new owner who spends oodles of money....check Roster full of $$$ and the players that Darcy really wanted.....check So if it isn't Lindy's fault? The again....where should the blame lay if you admit the Boston game and followup has been a complete failure? We are 14 years into the same people and culture. All 5 of your captains have been in the organization for the better part of a decade. Just when will we figure out WITHOUT ANY SPECULATION....just who is to blame for a culture of soft beings? Pegula is loyal to a fault. These last few weeks should make it even more evident. I don't know if anything of substance is going to change. We just have to hope for the best as fans. I don't like relying on hope. I like relying on trust, history, and results.
nfreeman Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 If you have a bunch of gutless/heartless players.....and it isn't Ruff....then who is it? Who is responsible for bringing in at least 1 player on a roster of 20 who will respond with the most basic hockey instincts in a hectic situation? Some of us have been saying for years that there is a problem. All we wanted was a chance to figure out where that problem evolved. Was it coach? Players? GM? Ownership? Well going into the year, the appologists stood up for the coach, and the gm...saying the "shackles" were off. The Gm brought in many high priced players and the team is spending the most cash of any franchise out there this year. Everyone wanted to blame the previous owner.....some of these same people who would get upset if you questioned that owner at the time. Ok....new owner who spends oodles of money....check Roster full of $$$ and the players that Darcy really wanted.....check So if it isn't Lindy's fault? The again....where should the blame lay if you admit the Boston game and followup has been a complete failure? We are 14 years into the same people and culture. All 5 of your captains have been in the organization for the better part of a decade. Just when will we figure out WITHOUT ANY SPECULATION....just who is to blame for a culture of soft beings? Pegula is loyal to a fault. These last few weeks should make it even more evident. I don't know if anything of substance is going to change. We just have to hope for the best as fans. I don't like relying on hope. I like relying on trust, history, and results. These are fair questions. The optimistic answer is that while the Boston game was a disgrace, it wasn't the end of everything. It was, one hopes, a disgrace that the players learned from and will respond to with more heart, both during the regular season vs Boston and Philly, and hopefully during the playoffs this year. If that doesn't prove out? i.e. if the Sabres are 2-8 vs Boston and Philly this year, are generally manhandled during those games and then get bounced again in the first round? I'd be inclined to blame Darcy more than Lindy. But I'm not sure it will ever be possible to know this without any speculation. None of us is in those meetings. BTW, it should be remembered that even true NHL warriors sometimes don't answer the bell. Kesler, for whom I would trade any two of the Sabres' forwards, didn't do anything in the finals when the Bruins were taking liberties with his teammates. The Bruins themselves are plenty tough, but none of them did anything when Cooke cheap-shotted Savard last year.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 These are fair questions. The optimistic answer is that while the Boston game was a disgrace, it wasn't the end of everything. It was, one hopes, a disgrace that the players learned from and will respond to with more heart, both during the regular season vs Boston and Philly, and hopefully during the playoffs this year. If that doesn't prove out? i.e. if the Sabres are 2-8 vs Boston and Philly this year, are generally manhandled during those games and then get bounced again in the first round? I'd be inclined to blame Darcy more than Lindy. But I'm not sure it will ever be possible to know this without any speculation. None of us is in those meetings. BTW, it should be remembered that even true NHL warriors sometimes don't answer the bell. Kesler, for whom I would trade any two of the Sabres' forwards, didn't do anything in the finals when the Bruins were taking liberties with his teammates. The Bruins themselves are plenty tough, but none of them did anything when Cooke cheap-shotted Savard last year. We will NEVER know 100% what happens behind closed doors. That's what this forum is for. To ask questions and hold people accountable. As we slowly diddle, waiting another year, and another year, in hope that a change is made..... That Boston game was a black swan. You can't unsee that. On a relative emotional level, it's like walking in on your spouse cheating on you. Just in seeing the response from so many diehards who were always willing to give the team the benefit of the doubt, now say ENOUGH!...that is as close as I can get with a comparison. There's one thing when a player takes liberties......then there is a Badass, franchise hockey player going full speed across the ice and driving himself through your franchise, medal winning, Vezina winning, history of concussion, emo goaltender.....then laughing at everone on the ice, going to the bench and laughing some more, and not one person did anything about it.
nfreeman Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 We will NEVER know 100% what happens behind closed doors. That's what this forum is for. To ask questions and hold people accountable. As we slowly diddle, waiting another year, and another year, in hope that a change is made..... That Boston game was a black swan. You can't unsee that. On a relative emotional level, it's like walking in on your spouse cheating on you. Just in seeing the response from so many diehards who were always willing to give the team the benefit of the doubt, now say ENOUGH!...that is as close as I can get with a comparison. There's one thing when a player takes liberties......then there is a Badass, franchise hockey player going full speed across the ice and driving himself through your franchise, medal winning, Vezina winning, history of concussion, emo goaltender.....then laughing at everone on the ice, going to the bench and laughing some more, and not one person did anything about it. ...unless they do so on Wednesday, and in each subsequent Boston game. Let's just see what happens before we torch the place.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 ...unless they do so on Wednesday, and in each subsequent Boston game. Let's just see what happens before we torch the place. When you finally decide to torch, make sure you bring plenty of kerosene and an ample spark.....because those seem to be in short supply on site.
MattPie Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 When you finally decide to torch, make sure you bring plenty of kerosene and an ample spark.....because those seem to be in short supply on site. That's funny, a non-Buffalo friend of mine whose taken to rooting for the Bills this year (he's disgusted with the Eagles and Andy Reid) asked me how we haven't burned Ralph Wilson Stadium to the ground after years and years of these seasons.
That Aud Smell Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 whither adam mair? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CZVn9jaOu8
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 whither adam mair? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CZVn9jaOu8 Jab....the forgotten art!
SwampD Posted November 22, 2011 Report Posted November 22, 2011 I haven't had time to read every post and even less to post, but Ghost, from the few I have read, you have my full support. I'm behind you 100% on whatever you say about this topic. I just can't believe that someone would need another early bouncing from the playoffs to know what they already know.
Andrew Amerk Posted November 22, 2011 Report Posted November 22, 2011 That Boston game was a black swan. You can't unsee that. On a relative emotional level, it's like walking in on your spouse cheating on you. Just in seeing the response from so many diehards who were always willing to give the team the benefit of the doubt, now say ENOUGH!...that is as close as I can get with a comparison. There's one thing when a player takes liberties......then there is a Badass, franchise hockey player going full speed across the ice and driving himself through your franchise, medal winning, Vezina winning, history of concussion, emo goaltender.....then laughing at everone on the ice, going to the bench and laughing some more, and not one person did anything about it. Well said. Watching that game was disheartening. I have rooted for this team for over 2 decades, and always have the benefit of the doubt for them. I can't even add up the amount of time and money I devote towards this team, and the lack of response was appalling. Give me the same money that I make at my stupid job now, and I will gladly skate out there and take on Lucic. Part of myself innately hopes that there will be a statement made on Wednesday - but that part of me is probably the same part that was holding out hope that the Bills wouldn't fall apart again.
LGR4GM Posted November 22, 2011 Report Posted November 22, 2011 The Bruins will come into the game Wednesday coming off of back to back shutouts... the game Wednesday may not really mean anything but it will be a check of this teams heart. I'd take a heartful loss over an empty win.
Andrew Amerk Posted November 22, 2011 Report Posted November 22, 2011 The Bruins will come into the game Wednesday coming off of back to back shutouts... the game Wednesday may not really mean anything but it will be a check of this teams heart. I'd take a heartful loss over an empty win. Heart Means Everything.
LabattBlue Posted November 22, 2011 Report Posted November 22, 2011 I don't want to hear what the Sabres are going to do on Wednesday except win a hockey game. They had two players on the ice against Boston(Myers and Gaustad) who could have addressed the situation at the time it happened, and at least 5 players(adding Regehr, McCormick & Kaleta) who could have done something later in the game. They didn't do it, so don't show up with some false bravado on Wednesday to claim retribution. What I care more about in terms of team toughness, is somewhere down the road when Miller or one of our finesse forwards gets run, who is going to stand up and show some balls without getting called on the carpet by the coaching staff and media? I wouldn't be surprised if Boston blows out the Sabres tomorrow by 4 or 5 goals. Boston is playing great hockey and the Sabres suck at home.
dEnnis the Menace Posted November 22, 2011 Report Posted November 22, 2011 I don't want to hear what the Sabres are going to do on Wednesday except win a hockey game. They had two players on the ice against Boston(Myers and Gaustad) who could have addressed the situation at the time it happened, and at least 5 players(adding Regehr, McCormick & Kaleta) who could have done something later in the game. They didn't do it, so don't show up with some false bravado on Wednesday to claim retribution. What I care more about in terms of team toughness, is somewhere down the road when Miller or one of our finesse forwards gets run, who is going to stand up and show some balls without getting called on the carpet by the coaching staff and media? I wouldn't be surprised if Boston blows out the Sabres tomorrow by 4 or 5 goals. Boston is playing great hockey and the Sabres suck at home. And Tim Thomas is on fire... very good post though. I agree with you 100% on this.
nfreeman Posted November 22, 2011 Report Posted November 22, 2011 Part of myself innately hopes that there will be a statement made on Wednesday - but that part of me is probably the same part that was holding out hope that the Bills wouldn't fall apart again. I wouldn't be surprised if Boston blows out the Sabres tomorrow by 4 or 5 goals. Boston is playing great hockey and the Sabres suck at home. There is indeed a cold feeling of dread afoot... But hope springs eternal. Go Sabres.
qwksndmonster Posted November 22, 2011 Report Posted November 22, 2011 Heart Means Everything. Healthy Changes Everything.
spndnchz Posted November 22, 2011 Author Report Posted November 22, 2011 Shanahan on 1050 today. Said he's talked with both GM's about Wednesday game and said that he'd be watching. Watching meaning from his TV in NYC.
LabattBlue Posted November 22, 2011 Report Posted November 22, 2011 Shanahan on 1050 today. Said he's talked with both GM's about Wednesday game and said that he'd be watching. Watching meaning from his TV in NYC. No need for him to watch from the Sabres point of view. The only reason Shanny may want to tune in, is to see if Chara, Marchand, Boychuk, Lucic, etc... decide to run Enroth or one of the other Sabres.
wonderbread Posted November 22, 2011 Report Posted November 22, 2011 Shanahan on 1050 today. Said he's talked with both GM's about Wednesday game and said that he'd be watching. Watching meaning from his TV in NYC. Eff shanahan, this guy is judge, jury, and executioner. Far to much power for one individual to have IMO. I hope he gets the non hd msg feed.
Weave Posted November 22, 2011 Report Posted November 22, 2011 Shanahan on 1050 today. Said he's talked with both GM's about Wednesday game and said that he'd be watching. Watching meaning from his TV in NYC. Which is why stuff needs to be handled in the heat of the moment and not the next game. Not that it would matter with the Sabres anyway.
CallawaySabres Posted November 22, 2011 Report Posted November 22, 2011 You know what I think is going to happen tomorrow - Buffalo is definitely going to go after Boston and they are going to get their ###### handed to them. On top of that, I see Boston using their physical beat-down to run away with the game. Hope I am wrong but I got a bad feeling about this one....Boston 5-2 Hopefully, there is enough pushback by Buffalo to at least change the chemistry on this team - we'll see
Claude_Verret Posted November 22, 2011 Report Posted November 22, 2011 If the Sabres run around looking for retribution they will suffer the double humiliation of a physical beat down and a loss. I agree that if these kind of things aren't handled in the heat of the moment then you never really had it in you in the first place as a team to deal with it. Maybe Enroth can steal one for us, but I think it's more likely that this is another ugly home loss tomorrow night.
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