game discussion thread GDT: Sabres at Bruins 11/12/11 7:00PM

[Stormin Norman]

Anyone who posts a response like, "Chill out everyone. We're 10 and 6, and it's still early in the year," doesn't have a clue. Those people figuratively close their eyes, cover their ears, rock back and forth, and sing to themselves to protect themselves from reality.

 

The truth is the organization failed a major test last night from top to bottom. The absence of leadership was both resounding and astounding. Former coaches and players and commentators across the country were less taken aback by the Lucic cheap shot than they were about Buffalo's utter lack of response to it.

 

Now, word has it the Sabres will take care of business when they play Boston at home in a little over a week. In the heat of battle, the entire team turtles, and when they are rightly excoriated for it, they suddenly manufacture bravery?

 

Gotta fix the core of this team.

[Andrew Amerk]

This is not a job for any of the children in the AHL.

 

I've noticed quite a few people on this board as well as in comments under various articles clamoring for Kassian.

 

Not sure if these people have been watching him in Rochester, but he isn't playing the Lucic type style in the AHL that he did in juniors.

 

It looks like he wants to, but someone has told him not to. Maybe one of the 3 R's - Ruff, Rolston, or Regier.

[qwksndmonster]

I was waiting for someone to say we needed to sign Oggie Oglethorpe. :D

+1

[darksabre]

I was waiting for someone to say we needed to sign Oggie Oglethorpe. :D

 

Goldie Goldthorpe is still alive :unsure:

[2ForTripping]

Ain't nothin new :(

Agreed. this team has been flaccid for many years.....

[Sabre fan]

While I sincerely believe that Zac Kassien is gonna be a good one down the road, he is still a kid and no match for Lucic at this point. There are established tough guys available if retribution is on anyone's minds here. I'm more worried about Miller and his poor start. As well, the team in general are not playing all that well, which concerns me too.

[spndnchz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvE82q4yKEM

[CallawaySabres]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvE82q4yKEM

 

Was he about to cry......

[nfreeman]

If that's the interview that Bucky was referring to when he wrote that Miller was about to cry, then Bucky is FOS.

[That Aud Smell]

If that's the interview that Bucky was referring to when he wrote that Miller was about to cry, then Bucky is FOS.

this one was immediately after the game on november 12; the one where it was reported that his lip was quivering occurred after this one, maybe on november 15 (the sabres edge blog is down, so i can't confirm). i think the lip-quivering thing was also after the closed door meeting where ruff told the players that they failed to answer the bell.

 

what i did find was this piece from the ny times over the weekend:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/21/sports/hockey/hockey-changes-its-retaliatory-ways.html

 

prior to reading that article, i hadn't heard/known (1) that the GMs basically told shanahan to deal with these kinds of incidents differently on a go-forward basis and (2) that ruff came right out and effectively said that the players should've known to sacrifice in-game success in favor of responding to what lucic did.

[nfreeman]

this one was immediately after the game on november 12; the one where it was reported that his lip was quivering occurred after this one, maybe on november 15 (the sabres edge blog is down, so i can't confirm). i think the lip-quivering thing was also after the closed door meeting where ruff told the players that they failed to answer the bell.

 

what i did find was this piece from the ny times over the weekend:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/21/sports/hockey/hockey-changes-its-retaliatory-ways.html

 

prior to reading that article, i hadn't heard/known (1) that the GMs basically told shanahan to deal with these kinds of incidents differently on a go-forward basis and (2) that ruff came right out and effectively said that the players should've known to sacrifice in-game success in favor of responding to what lucic did.

I think you're right, and I'm glad to see Bucky wasn't fabricating (at least not based on that interview).

 

Interesting NYT piece.

[That Aud Smell]

I think you're right, and I'm glad to see Bucky wasn't fabricating (at least not based on that interview).

yeah - november 15 was the quivering lip report -- during the "these guys have my back" interview.

 

http://blogs.buffalonews.com/sabres/2011/11/audio-miller-suffering-whiplash-headaches-sabres-goalie-disappointed-in-nhl-bruins-comments.html

[LGR4GM]

While I sincerely believe that Zac Kassien is gonna be a good one down the road, he is still a kid and no match for Lucic at this point.

I have no idea who the bolded player is... There is a ZACK KASSIAN on the Americans roster...

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

this one was immediately after the game on november 12; the one where it was reported that his lip was quivering occurred after this one, maybe on november 15 (the sabres edge blog is down, so i can't confirm). i think the lip-quivering thing was also after the closed door meeting where ruff told the players that they failed to answer the bell.

 

what i did find was this piece from the ny times over the weekend:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/21/sports/hockey/hockey-changes-its-retaliatory-ways.html

 

prior to reading that article, i hadn't heard/known (1) that the GMs basically told shanahan to deal with these kinds of incidents differently on a go-forward basis and (2) that ruff came right out and effectively said that the players should've known to sacrifice in-game success in favor of responding to what lucic did.

 

People think I go after Ruff just because I like to hear myself talk....but the bigger question in all of this is how can 20 guys fail to have an instinctive response? The situation was about as obvious as minding your own business at the bar and some guy comes and coldcocks your buddy on the head with a beer bottle. What are you going to do? Call the cops? No....you're instinct is to jump the guy....natural instinct, both to prevent any further damage on his part to your friend or anyone else...and from your outrage at a dispicable act that had no business in taking place. Let someone else call the cops and you sort it all out afterwards.

 

I've long held that Lindy micromanages these guys so much that the young ones don't know whether they are coming or going by the time it's said and done. Look at who was on the ice....Vanek, Pominville, Gaustad, Sekera, Myers, Miller........ALL ORIGINAL SABRES FROM THEIR YOUTH!!! They have been through the Lindy ringer for years and know the edict. Nathat Gerbe in his 2nd intermission interview with Rob Ray said it wasn't up to the team to respond....it was for the officials to handle.

 

Now we need the coach to micromanage further and have 5 hours worth of individual meetings? He even has to coach these guys on when to have natural emotion? This whole thing would be comical if it wasn't shameful. Now we are going to have a group on Wednesday knowing something is expected of them, and it will probably be forced. A normal team would be able to respond throughout the natural flow of the game and maybe even use the original event to build momentum and come together....but this entire process with the Sabres has been like a high school play....learning your lines, your marks, rehearsing, etc.

 

I want some of you who have jumped down my throat to look at this whole recent event and response, and maybe now understand where I was coming from in my comments about Lindy with Adam and Kassian. A lot of you saw "horseplay". I saw a breaking process, much like you'd break a yearling horse in order for it to eventually do whatever you tell it to.

 

An event like Miller/Lucic only cements spectulation into reality in my mind.

 

5 hours of individual meetings.......is there a F'ng legit captain in the house?

 

I'm getting pissed as I write this.......

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I have no idea who the bolded player is... There is a ZACK KASSIAN on the Americans roster...

 

This is why I want you to be GM ...

 

You know all the players and how to spell their names.

 

LGR 4 GM!!

[Sabres Fan in NS]

People think I go after Ruff just because I like to hear myself talk....but the bigger question in all of this is how can 20 guys fail to have an instinctive response? The situation was about as obvious as minding your own business at the bar and some guy comes and coldcocks your buddy on the head with a beer bottle. What are you going to do? Call the cops? No....you're instinct is to jump the guy....natural instinct, both to prevent any further damage on his part to your friend or anyone else...and from your outrage at a dispicable act that had no business in taking place. Let someone else call the cops and you sort it all out afterwards.

 

I've long held that Lindy micromanages these guys so much that the young ones don't know whether they are coming or going by the time it's said and done. Look at who was on the ice....Vanek, Pominville, Gaustad, Sekera, Myers, Miller........ALL ORIGINAL SABRES FROM THEIR YOUTH!!! They have been through the Lindy ringer for years and know the edict. Nathat Gerbe in his 2nd intermission interview with Rob Ray said it wasn't up to the team to respond....it was for the officials to handle.

 

Now we need the coach to micromanage further and have 5 hours worth of individual meetings? He even has to coach these guys on when to have natural emotion? This whole thing would be comical if it wasn't shameful. Now we are going to have a group on Wednesday knowing something is expected of them, and it will probably be forced. A normal team would be able to respond throughout the natural flow of the game and maybe even use the original event to build momentum and come together....but this entire process with the Sabres has been like a high school play....learning your lines, your marks, rehearsing, etc.

 

I want some of you who have jumped down my throat to look at this whole recent event and response, and maybe now understand where I was coming from in my comments about Lindy with Adam and Kassian. A lot of you saw "horseplay". I saw a breaking process, much like you'd break a yearling horse in order for it to eventually do whatever you tell it to.

 

An event like Miller/Lucic only cements spectulation into reality in my mind.

 

5 hours of individual meetings.......is there a F'ng legit captain in the house?

 

I'm getting pissed as I write this.......

 

I'm getting pissed as I read it ... not at you, of course.

 

In regards to the bolded part ...

 

I firmly believe if this happened a year ago Gerbe would have been the first one over the boards ... only to be beaten to a pulp when the rest of the girls didn't follow.

[R_Dudley]

People think I go after Ruff just because I like to hear myself talk....but the bigger question in all of this is how can 20 guys fail to have an instinctive response? The situation was about as obvious as minding your own business at the bar and some guy comes and coldcocks your buddy on the head with a beer bottle. What are you going to do? Call the cops? No....you're instinct is to jump the guy....natural instinct, both to prevent any further damage on his part to your friend or anyone else...and from your outrage at a dispicable act that had no business in taking place. Let someone else call the cops and you sort it all out afterwards.

 

I've long held that Lindy micromanages these guys so much that the young ones don't know whether they are coming or going by the time it's said and done. Look at who was on the ice....Vanek, Pominville, Gaustad, Sekera, Myers, Miller........ALL ORIGINAL SABRES FROM THEIR YOUTH!!! They have been through the Lindy ringer for years and know the edict. Nathat Gerbe in his 2nd intermission interview with Rob Ray said it wasn't up to the team to respond....it was for the officials to handle.

 

Now we need the coach to micromanage further and have 5 hours worth of individual meetings? He even has to coach these guys on when to have natural emotion? This whole thing would be comical if it wasn't shameful. Now we are going to have a group on Wednesday knowing something is expected of them, and it will probably be forced. A normal team would be able to respond throughout the natural flow of the game and maybe even use the original event to build momentum and come together....but this entire process with the Sabres has been like a high school play....learning your lines, your marks, rehearsing, etc.

 

I want some of you who have jumped down my throat to look at this whole recent event and response, and maybe now understand where I was coming from in my comments about Lindy with Adam and Kassian. A lot of you saw "horseplay". I saw a breaking process, much like you'd break a yearling horse in order for it to eventually do whatever you tell it to.

 

An event like Miller/Lucic only cements spectulation into reality in my mind.

 

5 hours of individual meetings.......is there a F'ng legit captain in the house?

 

I'm getting pissed as I write this.......

 

Wow never really thought "The System" might be that complicated. If it does indeed come down to that level of thinking verse reacting then no wonders Erhoff and Leino have not looked great. Regher's game has always been more physical/stay at home so makes sense his game could be less effected assuming he is told to mainly continue to perform in that role.

[nfreeman]

People think I go after Ruff just because I like to hear myself talk....but the bigger question in all of this is how can 20 guys fail to have an instinctive response? The situation was about as obvious as minding your own business at the bar and some guy comes and coldcocks your buddy on the head with a beer bottle. What are you going to do? Call the cops? No....you're instinct is to jump the guy....natural instinct, both to prevent any further damage on his part to your friend or anyone else...and from your outrage at a dispicable act that had no business in taking place. Let someone else call the cops and you sort it all out afterwards.

 

I've long held that Lindy micromanages these guys so much that the young ones don't know whether they are coming or going by the time it's said and done. Look at who was on the ice....Vanek, Pominville, Gaustad, Sekera, Myers, Miller........ALL ORIGINAL SABRES FROM THEIR YOUTH!!! They have been through the Lindy ringer for years and know the edict. Nathat Gerbe in his 2nd intermission interview with Rob Ray said it wasn't up to the team to respond....it was for the officials to handle.

 

Now we need the coach to micromanage further and have 5 hours worth of individual meetings? He even has to coach these guys on when to have natural emotion? This whole thing would be comical if it wasn't shameful. Now we are going to have a group on Wednesday knowing something is expected of them, and it will probably be forced. A normal team would be able to respond throughout the natural flow of the game and maybe even use the original event to build momentum and come together....but this entire process with the Sabres has been like a high school play....learning your lines, your marks, rehearsing, etc.

 

I want some of you who have jumped down my throat to look at this whole recent event and response, and maybe now understand where I was coming from in my comments about Lindy with Adam and Kassian. A lot of you saw "horseplay". I saw a breaking process, much like you'd break a yearling horse in order for it to eventually do whatever you tell it to.

 

An event like Miller/Lucic only cements spectulation into reality in my mind.

 

5 hours of individual meetings.......is there a F'ng legit captain in the house?

 

I'm getting pissed as I write this.......

Believing in a theory for a long time doesn't make it any more likely to be correct. It's 100% speculation -- no more, no less.

 

When you look at who was on the ice -- has any of them other than Gaustad had a fight at the NHL level? I don't think so (or more than one, in any event). That to me says "non-fighter by nature" -- NOT "non-fighter despite being born a wild beast due to being neutered by Lindy."

 

Who are the guys on the Sabres with real fire in the belly? They guys who would instinctively respond hard to the shot on Miller? There aren't many -- Gerbe, Kaleta, Gaustad, Regehr, McCormick and Stafford (who gets to be on this list until proven otherwise due to stepping up for Drury in 2007). Gaustad had his chance and crapped the bed -- and owned up to it and will not, I'd expect, make the same mistake again. Gaustad also has a real track record of not faltering in these situations -- he was by far the toughest, most determined forward on the team last year in the playoffs and has fought guys like Phaneuf, Parros and Doan in the past. The others don't seem to have had the physical side "neutered" out of their games. I assume you aren't blaming Lindy for neutering Regehr, since he just got here, and Gerbe, Kaleta and McCormick are as aggressive as ever.

 

I also don't see how anyone can be unhappy about Lindy making clear to the team what is expected when their goalie gets run. They obviously didn't understand it at the time. Wouldn't you rather he set them straight?

 

The legit captain question is a very real issue that I and many others have posted about repeatedly. I don't think the absence of one can be laid at Lindy's feet. Is there a guy on the roster whom you think would have been a legit captain but for Lindy "subduing" him?

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Believing in a theory for a long time doesn't make it any more likely to be correct. It's 100% speculation -- no more, no less.

 

When you look at who was on the ice -- has any of them other than Gaustad had a fight at the NHL level? I don't think so (or more than one, in any event). That to me says "non-fighter by nature" -- NOT "non-fighter despite being born a wild beast due to being neutered by Lindy."

 

Who are the guys on the Sabres with real fire in the belly? They guys who would instinctively respond hard to the shot on Miller? There aren't many -- Gerbe, Kaleta, Gaustad, Regehr, McCormick and Stafford (who gets to be on this list until proven otherwise due to stepping up for Drury in 2007). Gaustad had his chance and crapped the bed -- and owned up to it and will not, I'd expect, make the same mistake again. Gaustad also has a real track record of not faltering in these situations -- he was by far the toughest, most determined forward on the team last year in the playoffs and has fought guys like Phaneuf, Parros and Doan in the past. The others don't seem to have had the physical side "neutered" out of their games. I assume you aren't blaming Lindy for neutering Regehr, since he just got here, and Gerbe, Kaleta and McCormick are as aggressive as ever.

 

I also don't see how anyone can be unhappy about Lindy making clear to the team what is expected when their goalie gets run. They obviously didn't understand it at the time. Wouldn't you rather he set them straight?

 

The legit captain question is a very real issue that I and many others have posted about repeatedly. I don't think the absence of one can be laid at Lindy's feet. Is there a guy on the roster whom you think would have been a legit captain but for Lindy "subduing" him?

 

You really need to sit down with each guy for 15-20 minutes as the coach and EXPLAIN to them what should be at the top of the list of Hockey's Ten Commandments, for anyone that has ever played the game from 4 years old on?

 

What depth of programming has gone on that they each need to be sat down and have it explained to them?

 

 

I haven't been in a physical fight since I was 13. It's different in "the real world" then on the ice, and I am able to use my size, wit, and diplomatic skill in the real world to calm tense situations.....but I tell you this, there are certain actions where your instincts take over and consequences be damned. For anyone that has ever played the game, Miller getting run like that, by a player of Lucic's caliber nonetheless.....was one of those times.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I'm getting pissed as I read it ... not at you, of course.

 

In regards to the bolded part ...

 

I firmly believe if this happened a year ago Gerbe would have been the first one over the boards ... only to be beaten to a pulp when the rest of the girls didn't follow.

 

I posted it in the gameday thread as it happened. Others heard and were shocked.

 

Gerbe did take a feel-good penalty by yipping at the ref a few weeks ago and it cost the team. Instead of explaining to Gerbe that he gets away with a lot of little things because he is so small and the refs respect his spunk, he probably was told that you don't take undisciplined penalties that will cost the team. As an individual, I would hope a guy that has shown his character can decipher between the two things. Instead we got what we got in the interview.

 

Gerbe and Weber were the signs of hope last year and one of the reasons I enjoyed the 2nd half of the season.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

The legit captain question is a very real issue that I and many others have posted about repeatedly. I don't think the absence of one can be laid at Lindy's feet. Is there a guy on the roster whom you think would have been a legit captain but for Lindy "subduing" him?

 

Gaustad had it when he came into the league. Weber has it in spades but was an afterthought this year. Regehr should have an A on at least. Gerbe has the spunk but his size might be a limiting factor.

 

Like I have been saying for 4 years....when will we bring in a guy up front that has these attributes? Your 5 letter wearers are all "the core". Guys we've been told by Regier and Ruff will "grow together as a group". Pominville, Roy, Vanek, Stafford, Gaustad. 60% of them were on the ice in Boston, and Miller "you're a POS, we allow you in here" is also a member of that core.

 

They've been "growing" for nearly a decade now. How's it working?

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Gaustad had it when he came into the league. Weber has it in spades but was an afterthought this year. Regehr should have an A on at least. Gerbe has the spunk but his size might be a limiting factor.

 

Like I have been saying for 4 years....when will we bring in a guy up front that has these attributes? Your 5 letter wearers are all "the core". Guys we've been told by Regier and Ruff will "grow together as a group". Pominville, Roy, Vanek, Stafford, Gaustad. 60% of them were on the ice in Boston, and Miller "you're a POS, we allow you in here" is also a member of that core.

 

They've been "growing" for nearly a decade now. How's it working?

 

All "growing" had stoped some time ago ...

 

In regards to the bolded part ...

 

He would be my captain and I believe he would have the "C" on his chest if not for the Rivet fiasco, but he didn't go over the boards after Lucic either.

[LabattBlue]

People think I go after Ruff just because I like to hear myself talk....but the bigger question in all of this is how can 20 guys fail to have an instinctive response? The situation was about as obvious as minding your own business at the bar and some guy comes and coldcocks your buddy on the head with a beer bottle. What are you going to do? Call the cops? No....you're instinct is to jump the guy....natural instinct, both to prevent any further damage on his part to your friend or anyone else...and from your outrage at a dispicable act that had no business in taking place. Let someone else call the cops and you sort it all out afterwards.

 

I've long held that Lindy micromanages these guys so much that the young ones don't know whether they are coming or going by the time it's said and done. Look at who was on the ice....Vanek, Pominville, Gaustad, Sekera, Myers, Miller........ALL ORIGINAL SABRES FROM THEIR YOUTH!!! They have been through the Lindy ringer for years and know the edict. Nathat Gerbe in his 2nd intermission interview with Rob Ray said it wasn't up to the team to respond....it was for the officials to handle.

 

Now we need the coach to micromanage further and have 5 hours worth of individual meetings? He even has to coach these guys on when to have natural emotion? This whole thing would be comical if it wasn't shameful. Now we are going to have a group on Wednesday knowing something is expected of them, and it will probably be forced. A normal team would be able to respond throughout the natural flow of the game and maybe even use the original event to build momentum and come together....but this entire process with the Sabres has been like a high school play....learning your lines, your marks, rehearsing, etc.

 

I want some of you who have jumped down my throat to look at this whole recent event and response, and maybe now understand where I was coming from in my comments about Lindy with Adam and Kassian. A lot of you saw "horseplay". I saw a breaking process, much like you'd break a yearling horse in order for it to eventually do whatever you tell it to.

 

An event like Miller/Lucic only cements spectulation into reality in my mind.

 

5 hours of individual meetings.......is there a F'ng legit captain in the house?

 

I'm getting pissed as I write this.......

:worthy: :worthy:

[nfreeman]

You really need to sit down with each guy for 15-20 minutes as the coach and EXPLAIN to them what should be at the top of the list of Hockey's Ten Commandments, for anyone that has ever played the game from 4 years old on?

 

What depth of programming has gone on that they each need to be sat down and have it explained to them?

 

I haven't been in a physical fight since I was 13. It's different in "the real world" then on the ice, and I am able to use my size, wit, and diplomatic skill in the real world to calm tense situations.....but I tell you this, there are certain actions where your instincts take over and consequences be damned. For anyone that has ever played the game, Miller getting run like that, by a player of Lucic's caliber nonetheless.....was one of those times.

You are assuming the truth of your theory -- ie the Sabres didn't respond, so it MUST have been because of the "programming."

 

To which I respond: 60-70% of the players in the NHL would have wussed out in the same way the Sabres did -- and it's not because of "programming." It's because most of them don't have that response wired into the way they play the game. The key is that the 30%-40% of players who are wired to respond must do so and must do so immediately and forcefully.

 

Gaustad had it when he came into the league. Weber has it in spades but was an afterthought this year. Regehr should have an A on at least. Gerbe has the spunk but his size might be a limiting factor.

 

Like I have been saying for 4 years....when will we bring in a guy up front that has these attributes? Your 5 letter wearers are all "the core". Guys we've been told by Regier and Ruff will "grow together as a group". Pominville, Roy, Vanek, Stafford, Gaustad. 60% of them were on the ice in Boston, and Miller "you're a POS, we allow you in here" is also a member of that core.

 

They've been "growing" for nearly a decade now. How's it working?

I want this (and I would guess everyone here does) as much as you do. It should've been addressed in FA or in trade last summer. I'd guess we'll see Foligno and/or Kassian next year, and hopefully an additional veteran from outside the organization.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Who are the guys on the Sabres with real fire in the belly? They guys who would instinctively respond hard to the shot on Miller? There aren't many -- Gerbe, Kaleta, Gaustad, Regehr, McCormick and Stafford (who gets to be on this list until proven otherwise due to stepping up for Drury in 2007). Gaustad had his chance and crapped the bed -- and owned up to it and will not, I'd expect, make the same mistake again. Gaustad also has a real track record of not faltering in these situations -- he was by far the toughest, most determined forward on the team last year in the playoffs and has fought guys like Phaneuf, Parros and Doan in the past. The others don't seem to have had the physical side "neutered" out of their games. I assume you aren't blaming Lindy for neutering Regehr, since he just got here, and Gerbe, Kaleta and McCormick are as aggressive as ever.

 

Gerbe - gave the interview that it was for the refs to handle

 

Stafford - on record as saying he needs to concentrate on the game and he is not a fighter, the physical stuff isn't for him

 

Gaustad - has turned into the king of the yippers after the whistle, as long as a well placed ref is in the line of fire

 

Kaleta - is a scumbag who headbuts, whips his head back in order to try and draw a penalty, turtles, tries to drive guy's heads to the ice with his forearm and slewfoots them at the end of "fights", and likes making noise by running into empty boards. I give him credit for at least lining up Chara, but I have little respect for him

 

McCormick - I don't know what his deal is anymore. When he first came up he had fire in him and he still does to some extent. Again though, he seems like he's more worried now about positioning than about making a statement in the game

 

Regehr - This one disappointed me. Lucic challenged him a few shifts before the Miller hit and Regehr backed down. It was after the whistle and Lucic came over, yipped, and put his stick in Regehr's space....away from any scrum or other action. Regehr ignored him, Lucic said something, and Regehr said a word or two back. When Lucic ran Miller, I am sure there was nobody on this team that made him think he would have a problem.