Who's starting in goal tomorrow night?

[Weave]

I'm starting to regret playing devil's advocate in response to your earlier post. :(

 

Hindsight is what makes the Briere trade a good one. Same with trading away Campbell. If Regier thinks that trading Miller away makes us better long term to winning a cup, then i'm all for it. What I was trying to convey is the average fan relates the Sabres pretty closely to Miller, and management should be pretty confident in what they have since there will be public questioning should the day that Miller is traded come.

 

Devil's advocate away. If nothing else you make me think more about my position. :thumbsup:

[Samson's Flow]

How is the Campbell a good trade in hindsight?

 

Note: please do not include in your response the assumption that in order to keep him, the Sabres would've had to have paid him what he got as a UFA. That is classic TG/LQ dissembling.

 

Note #2: I apologize if you had no intention of including the above assumption in your response.

I was thinking about how he has bounced around to multiple teams following us trading him to SJ. That and we have more depth at D than we know what to do with. I did forget that he did end up winning a cup in 2010 with the Blackhawks :wallbash:

 

Cap dollars should have nothing to do with a player's success.

[Weave]

How is the Campbell a good trade in hindsight?

 

I think you can regard it as an even trade if you assume that Rivet and his mindset helped mold plyers like Vanek and Pommer into what we are seeing on the ice today. Considering how far we really were from being a competitive team it might have been better long term to lose Campbell and get a vet in return that showed our younger guys how to grow up.

 

I'm not married to this line of thought but felt it worthy of consideration.

[Samson's Flow]

Devil's advocate away. If nothing else you make me think more about my position. :thumbsup:

Well my devil's advocate post was more thinking along these lines...

 

Say Darcy fleeces some team and gets a top center and a second line scoring winger for Miller. Everyone would think that was a good trade at the time (I would hope). But if the top center turned out to be a Lindros type career ending injury type, and the winger didn't pan out for whatever reason, then 5 years down the line we would be on the losing end of the "why did we trade away Miller" question.

 

I agree 100% that is should be all about hindsight when judging trades. Nobody knows if it is a good trade until it is too late.

[korab rules]

I was thinking about how he has bounced around to multiple teams following us trading him to SJ. That and we have more depth at D than we know what to do with. I did forget that he did end up winning a cup in 2010 with the Blackhawks :wallbash:

 

Cap dollars should have nothing to do with a player's success.

We have so much depth at D that we have been chasing D-Men, and a power play QB in particular, in free agency ever since he left.

 

Numbers at a position is not the same as depth.

[Samson's Flow]

How is the Campbell a good trade in hindsight?

 

Note: please do not include in your response the assumption that in order to keep him, the Sabres would've had to have paid him what he got as a UFA. That is classic TG/LQ dissembling.

 

Note #2: I apologize if you had no intention of including the above assumption in your response.

 

 

We have so much depth at D that we have been chasing D-Men, and a power play QB in particular, in free agency ever since he left.

 

Numbers at a position is not the same as depth.

I am willing to say that the Campbell trade was not a steal given you both have refuted my two points pretty well and I don't want to bring up the 'overpaid' moniker since that is a TG/LQ type argument.

[nfreeman]

I agree and I think you essentially re-worded what I was trying to convey.

Much easier than developing my own thoughts.

 

I was thinking about how he has bounced around to multiple teams following us trading him to SJ. That and we have more depth at D than we know what to do with. I did forget that he did end up winning a cup in 2010 with the Blackhawks :wallbash:

 

Cap dollars should have nothing to do with a player's success.

More low-end depth. Soupy is still better than any defenseman currently on the Sabres. (NB I expect Myers to surpass him, but it hasn't happened yet.) And "bounced around" is a bit of an exaggeration. We traded him at the deadline, he played for SJ as a rental for 20-odd games and then struck gold with Chicago as a UFA. Chicago didn't plan their cap well and had to unload him to Florida, where he has 12 pts in 13 games and is playing over 27 minutes per game, and the Hawks are now missing him quite a bit.

 

I think you can regard it as an even trade if you assume that Rivet and his mindset helped mold plyers like Vanek and Pommer into what we are seeing on the ice today. Considering how far we really were from being a competitive team it might have been better long term to lose Campbell and get a vet in return that showed our younger guys how to grow up.

 

I'm not married to this line of thought but felt it worthy of consideration.

I had high hopes for Rivet, and it's possible that he had a positive influence on Vanek and Pommer, but I'm reluctant to ascribe too much credit there since (i) he really only played one season with the Sabres before going downhill very quickly and (ii) the Sabres -- and especially their "top 6" -- still haven't done a GD thing in the playoffs -- so how much did he really help their maturity/toughness/other qualities?

[korab rules]

I am willing to say that the Campbell trade was not a steal given you both have refuted my two points pretty well and I don't want to bring up the 'overpaid' moniker since that is a TG/LQ type argument.

Let's include the money in the discussion.

 

What would we have considered a hometown discount for Campbell - 5x5 like briere and/or Drury?

 

Here are his career stats:

 

Brian "Soupy" Campbell - The Flying Tomato

Defense

Born May 23 1979 -- Strathroy, ONT

Height 5.11 -- Weight 185 -- Shoots L

 

 

Selected by Buffalo Sabres round 6 #156 overall 1997 NHL Entry Draft

 

--- Regular Season --- ---- Playoffs ----

Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM GP G A Pts PIM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1995-96 Ottawa 67's OHL 66 5 22 27 23 4 0 1 1 2

1996-97 Ottawa 67's OHL 66 7 36 43 12 24 2 11 13 8

1997-98 Ottawa 67's OHL 66 14 39 53 31 13 1 14 15 0

1998-99 Ottawa 67's OHL 62 12 75 87 27 9 2 10 12 6

1998-99 Rochester Americans AHL -- -- -- -- -- 2 0 0 0 0

1999-00 Rochester Americans AHL 67 2 24 26 22 21 0 3 3 0

1999-00 Buffalo Sabres NHL 12 1 4 5 4 -- -- -- -- --

2000-01 Rochester Americans AHL 65 7 25 32 24 4 0 1 1 0

2000-01 Buffalo Sabres NHL 8 0 0 0 2 -- -- -- -- --

2001-02 Rochester Americans AHL 45 2 35 37 13 -- -- -- -- --

2001-02 Buffalo Sabres NHL 29 3 3 6 12 -- -- -- -- --

2002-03 Buffalo Sabres NHL 65 2 17 19 20 -- -- -- -- --

2003-04 Buffalo Sabres NHL 53 3 8 11 12 -- -- -- -- --

2004-05 Jokerit Helsinki SM-li 44 12 13 25 12 12 3 4 7 6

2005-06 Buffalo Sabres NHL 79 12 32 44 16 18 0 6 6 12

2006-07 Buffalo Sabres NHL 82 6 42 48 35 16 3 4 7 14

2007-08 Buffalo Sabres NHL 63 5 38 43 12 -- -- -- -- --

2007-08 San Jose Sharks NHL 20 3 16 19 8 13 1 6 7 4

2008-09 Chicago Blackhawks NHL 82 7 45 52 22 17 2 8 10 0

2009-10 Chicago Blackhawks NHL 68 7 31 38 18 19 1 4 5 2

2010-11 Chicago Blackhawks NHL 65 5 22 27 6 7 1 2 3 6

2011-12 Florida Panthers NHL 13 1 11 12 0

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NHL Totals 639 55 269 324 167 90 8 30 38 38

 

Current statistics as of 2011-11-08

 

So - we have a player who has averaged roughly 40 points a year with a season high of 52 on an absolutely stacked blackhawks team and a previous high of 48 on the President's Cup winning Sabres team.

 

Compare that with Ehrhoff:

 

Christian "even I don't know how to spell my last name" Ehrhoff

Defense

Born Jul 6 1982 -- Moers, Germany

Height 6.02 -- Weight 200

 

Selected by San Jose Sharks round 4 #106 overall 2001 NHL Entry Draft

 

--- Regular Season --- ---- Playoffs ----

Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM GP G A Pts PIM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1999-00 Krefeld Penguins DEL 9 1 0 1 6 3 0 0 0 0

1999-00 Duisburg EV GerOb 41 3 12 15 50

2000-01 Krefeld Penguins DEL 58 3 11 14 73 -- -- -- -- --

2000-01 Duisburg EV GerOb 6 1 2 3 12

2001-02 Krefeld Penguins DEL 46 7 17 24 81 3 0 0 0 2

2002-03 Krefeld Penguins DEL 48 10 17 27 54 14 3 6 9 24

2003-04 San Jose Sharks NHL 41 1 11 12 14 -- -- -- -- --

2003-04 Cleveland Barons AHL 27 4 10 14 43 9 2 6 8 11

2004-05 Cleveland Barons AHL 79 12 23 35 103 -- -- -- -- --

2005-06 San Jose Sharks NHL 64 5 18 23 32 11 2 6 8 18

2006-07 San Jose Sharks NHL 82 10 23 33 63 11 0 2 2 6

2007-08 San Jose Sharks NHL 77 1 21 22 72 10 0 5 5 14

2008-09 San Jose Sharks NHL 77 8 34 42 63 6 0 0 0 2

2009-10 Vancouver Canucks NHL 80 14 30 44 42 12 3 4 7 8

2010-11 Vancouver Canucks NHL 79 14 36 50 52 23 2 10 12 16

2011-12 Buffalo Sabres NHL 13 1 6 7 6

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NHL Totals 513 54 179 233 344 73 7 27 34 64

 

Current statistics as of 2011-11-08

 

He is three years younger than Soupy, has similar career numbers, and he is signed for a cap hit of only 4 million.

 

Based on this comparison, Campbell would have been overpaid when he signed to the 5 x 5 deal back in 2008. In 2011 dollars, he would still be slightly overpaid.

 

So - we got a bum and a first round pick that turned into Tyler Ennis instead of slightly overpaying for an offensive defensman we haven't been able to replace until signing (some would say overpaying for) Ehrhoff.

[nfreeman]

Let's include the money in the discussion.

 

What would we have considered a hometown discount for Campbell - 5x5 like briere and/or Drury?

 

Here are his career stats:

 

Brian "Soupy" Campbell - The Flying Tomato

Defense

Born May 23 1979 -- Strathroy, ONT

Height 5.11 -- Weight 185 -- Shoots L

 

 

Selected by Buffalo Sabres round 6 #156 overall 1997 NHL Entry Draft

 

So - we have a player who has averaged roughly 40 points a year with a season high of 52 on an absolutely stacked blackhawks team and a previous high of 48 on the President's Cup winning Sabres team.

 

Compare that with Ehrhoff:

 

Christian "even I don't know how to spell my last name" Ehrhoff

Defense

Born Jul 6 1982 -- Moers, Germany

Height 6.02 -- Weight 200

 

Selected by San Jose Sharks round 4 #106 overall 2001 NHL Entry Draft

 

He is three years younger than Soupy, has similar career numbers, and he is signed for a cap hit of only 4 million.

 

Based on this comparison, Campbell would have been overpaid when he signed to the 5 x 5 deal back in 2008. In 2011 dollars, he would still be slightly overpaid.

 

So - we got a bum and a first round pick that turned into Tyler Ennis instead of slightly overpaying for an offensive defensman we haven't been able to replace until signing (some would say overpaying for) Ehrhoff.

It's not just numbers, though. By the time he left the Sabres, Soupy was totally "fluent" in the Sabres' system. He wasn't on a par with the true Norris-type defensemen, but he was just one notch below those guys. He was a highly effective and highly integrated part of the Sabres' offense. When they traded him, it left a huge hole that still hasn't been filled. It will take Ehrhoff literally years to get to that same place within the Sabres' system. I'll also say that while Ehrhoff has more size, Soupy is better at carrying the puck and breaking down the opposing defense.

[korab rules]

It's not just numbers, though. By the time he left the Sabres, Soupy was totally "fluent" in the Sabres' system. He wasn't on a par with the true Norris-type defensemen, but he was just one notch below those guys. He was a highly effective and highly integrated part of the Sabres' offense. When they traded him, it left a huge hole that still hasn't been filled. It will take Ehrhoff literally years to get to that same place within the Sabres' system. I'll also say that while Ehrhoff has more size, Soupy is better at carrying the puck and breaking down the opposing defense.

A notch below Norris type defensemen? Outside his own blueline I agree, but in his own end he still had issues until the bitter end. He benefited immensely from the fast paced, high scoring two hand touch post lock out days when he could outskate everyone to the puck and then outskate all the dinosaurs still populating the NHL into the offensive end. As the league got faster and play tightened back up, his defensive zone issues became more prominent, which is why a 7.1 million dollar D-man ended up on the third pairing in Chicago.

 

I think that Ehrhoff has as much offensive game as Soupy, though you correctly point out it will take him some time to adjust to Ruff's system, but I also believe Ehrhoff will turn out to be better in his own end than Soupy.

[evil_otto]

Miller/Miller

 

Move along... No goaltending controversy to see here. I prefer a tandem of Miller and Enroth.

[nfreeman]

A notch below Norris type defensemen? Outside his own blueline I agree, but in his own end he was still a bit of a trainwreck until the bitter end. He benefited immensely from the fast paced, high scoring two hand touch post lock out days when he could outskate everyone to the puck and then outskate all the dinosaurs still populating the NHL into the offensive end. As the league got faster and play tightened back up, his defensive zone issues became more prominent, which is why a 7.1 million dollar D-man ended up on the third pairing in Chicago.

 

I think that Ehrhoff has as much offensive game as Soupy, though you correctly point out it will take him some time to adjust to Ruff's system, but I also believe Ehrhoff will turn out to be better in his own end than Soupy.

I must disagree. Soupy wasn't on Chicago's 3rd pairing. Not even close. He was third on the entire team in ice time (behind Keith and Seabrook) last year and tied for #2 with Seabrook the year before.

 

He also wasn't a train wreck in the defensive zone, although that was frequently a fair description until the spring of 2006. He steadily improved until reaching what I would call "solid but not great" status. Train wrecks don't play over 25 minutes per game for Lindy, which Soupy did in 2007-08.

[qwksndmonster]

Maybe I read it wrong. No harm no foul.

 

I always thought that a shake up in the core players (i.e. Roy, Pommers, Vanek, Goose, Stafford) was needed, and still do, in order to get tougher to succeed in the playoffs when the game gets tighter. I just don't understand how everyone seems to be okay with trading Miller after one bad stretch and roll with Enroth because he had a nice run over 19 games (~23% of a season) but the forwards seem to be untouchable.

 

I think anyone should be fair game for a trade if it puts the team in a better position to win a cup. That's the goal. Right now I don't think trading Miller does that unless some team blows us away with a top center/scorer. I don't see that trade out there atm.

I'll root for whoever they put on the ice in Blue and Gold, as long as it's not Scott Fartnell.

[korab rules]

I must disagree. Soupy wasn't on Chicago's 3rd pairing. Not even close. He was third on the entire team in ice time (behind Keith and Seabrook) last year and tied for #2 with Seabrook the year before.

 

He also wasn't a train wreck in the defensive zone, although that was frequently a fair description until the spring of 2006. He steadily improved until reaching what I would call "solid but not great" status. Train wrecks don't play over 25 minutes per game for Lindy, which Soupy did in 2007-08.

Yes, trainwreck was a bit of an overstatement, which is why I edited it before you even responded - I knew you would call me on that.

 

How much of Soupy's ice time was on the PP as opposed to even strength? I don't know the answer, but I will look. I would like to know where he ranked for even strength minutes.

 

After a little research, I can't seem to find stats for even strength time vs. PP time, but we know that in 2008-2009 24 of his 52 points were PP points. Obviously, he played a lot of PP time. Its tough to equate his pairing status with total minutes played without being able to parse out his PP minutes.

 

In 2009-2010 his PP production dropped substantially, to only 11 points. In 2010-2011, it dropped again to only six points.

[5th line wingnutt]

Miller is off to a slow start after a whole 13 games.

 

The team has struggled some over the whole time.

 

Lots of teams have major changes over the off season, and most of them struggle for a time.

 

Enroth has performed like, or better, than most of us hoped.

 

13 games is not enough to condemn a recent Vezina winner. Enroth's body of work is how many games? Worthy of attention but not anointment.

 

Same for Leino and Erhoff, (and Regehr btw), not a big enough sample set.

 

This is not a time for jumping to conclusions. It is a time for patience and reflection, grasshopper.

 

FWIW I voted Miller/Miller.

[Meathead]

Have your deed handy ....

i have my pajamas on but i packed a bag just in case

[Drunkard]

Will you be raping and pillaging with us on the 18th?

 

I really want to but I think I might have to miss out on this one, along with the road crew event unfortunately. I just started a new job recently and I haven't really accrued many vacation hours yet, plus I don't want to be the new guy at the job who is already asking for time off after only being here a month. Save me a broad to rape and a baby to eat though (or vice versa, depending on how we should play this year's pillaging). If I miss this game I'll definitely be there for the one later in the season.