If the goal is to Win Cups...

[BetweenThePipes00]

As far as the substance of the thread -- for the old-timers here: remember when Bob Sauve muscled his way out of a backup role and into a more or less equal rotation with Don Edwards, and then eventually took the #1 job? I'm not saying that this is what's happening here, but I couldn't help thinking last night that it was a possibility.

 

Kinda ... but several things are different ... Edwards and Sauve were the same age, for one thing, although Edwards had that one 72-game season that did entrench him as the starter. Still, very different dynamic.

But most importantly ... the money matters. It just does. Not just the big number Miller makes but how it relates to the salary cap ... in this day and age, we are all GMs and capologists just waiting to be discovered, right? These issues did not exist in the early 80s, so the thing played itself out with minimal fan pressure either way compared to today.

 

People look at it and say Miller makes almost 10x what Enroth makes, he's never won anything, Enroth is playing great, so therefore Miller MUST be way overpaid and has to go. Even if he is a LITTLE better, he's not 10x better! His wife likes L.A.! Trade him for a center! As if it were that easy.

 

Plus, I think some people just wanted Miller to apologize and say he sucked vs. Philly, and that's just not him. He admitted he blew the first goal vs. Florida, he took responsibility. But he's not going to fake it, and he believed those were great shots that he played technically correctly and got beat. For some reason, this makes him a crybaby. I don't agree, he's just kind of a weird dude who gets lost in his own head enough as it is. His big thing a couple years ago was not being so hard on himself and focusing on the next shot, not the one that went in. So he's not going to convince himself he sucked on a play just to make other people happy. If that is condescending, implying that most people would not understand the technical side of it, so be it. Doesn't make it wrong.

 

Whatever the case ... perhaps Enroth is going to be THE starter sooner than anyone thought. Maybe Miller does get dealt in the offseason (I can't imagine that kind of blockbuster coming together in-season given the cap issues). I just hate that we can't feel good about our "other" goalie without slamming Miller and making him out to be a sieve and a choker and all that other stuff. He's a very good goalie ... if the right move is to move him eventually, fine, but I'd hate to see him run out of town based on the HOPE that MAYBE Enroth can eventually prove to be better. Before the season his numbers were essentially the same as Miller's. Are we really ready to annoint him as better now based on 4 starts? Scary to me.

[LastPommerFan]

My $.02:

 

Enroth is an unknown commodity. His value as a starter is completely unknown at this point, what we do know is that he is capable of winning at the NHL level. That is an astounding improvement over the last few years. Now, in my opinion, Enroth is 2 seasons away from fully developing as an NHL netminder. At that point, we will know enough to make a decision as to who the right goalie is for the Buffalo Sabres.

 

Miller is a well known commodity. He's not going to get any more "solved" by the league than he is right now. He is 18 months removed from a 18 month stretch when he was HANDS DOWN the best active goalie on the planet. He is capable of stealing games, and has never cost the Sabres a playoff series. Now, in my opinion, when his defensive core was decimated after the Vezina run, he completely failed to adjust to being a more Hasek type, react to errors goalie. The blue line talent is back up now, but a technical positional netminder like Ryan is going to be more affected by a defense that is in the process of gelling. Once the changes from the off season settle in, and Miller knows what to expect from his own guys when the opposing team has the puck, he's going to be back on top of the goalie heap. Miller is a great goalie in the right situation. He doesn't need perpetual Selke and Norris winners (like Detroit) or a 100% defense first mentality (like NJ) to be the best goalie in the world, all he needs is defensemen and forwards who are in the right positions in the defensive zone. We'll get there, and we'll get Vezina Miller back when we do.

 

In the mean time, how lucky are we to have a skilled goalie that doesn't expect anything at all from his defenses because he hasn't played enough games to expect anything. Despite our struggles, we sit at 8-5 with the best GAA of any team in the eastern conference. Once the D start playing with some positional consistency, we should be looking to set the record for fewest GA since the lockout.

[Campy]

Lindy went with the goalie who was playing well - the "hot hand." if you will. This doesn't mean Ryan is a dud, it just means the Sabres have a backup goalie who can get it done.

 

In other words, slow your roll...

[donteatyellowsnow]

Ooooooooooohhh. Good one. "You are." "No, YOU are."

 

Time to come up from the basement -- Mom has made your mac and cheese! If you're good you can have a juice box with it!

 

 

Now, that is an original creative comeback! :clapping:

[Robviously]

All goalies have mediocre stretches. Some goalies play pretty well and still lose.

 

 

Check out a lot of Marty Brodeur's Octobers. I think he won the Vezina twice post-lockout and had some brutal October stretches. The great goalies correct.

 

Miller will work it out.

 

Enroth? Who knows. I like what i've seen. But I wouldn't be ready to bank the franchise on him.

Bottom line for me is that I'm still not sure how good Ryan Miller is. He doesn't "suck." He's good, at the very least. But is he so good he gives us a clear advantage over other teams? Or so good he can't be replaced? I don't know.

 

I do know his best playoff performance was 2006, the year me made the least regular season starts (only 48) because he was injured for a stretch. Maybe this helps him big time this spring.

 

I do worry that he comes off like a high strung dude (almost humorless) and I'm not sure that helps him. If you're an NHL goalie, you'd really better be able to shrug off your bad games or else you're going to lose your mind.

[bob_sauve28]

Bottom line for me is that I'm still not sure how good Ryan Miller is. He doesn't "suck." He's good, at the very least. But is he so good he gives us a clear advantage over other teams? Or so good he can't be replaced? I don't know.

 

I do know his best playoff performance was 2006, the year me made the least regular season starts (only 48) because he was injured for a stretch. Maybe this helps him big time this spring.

 

I do worry that he comes off like a high strung dude (almost humorless) and I'm not sure that helps him. If you're an NHL goalie, you'd really better be able to shrug off your bad games or else you're going to lose your mind.

He doesn't look like he is having any fun or is happy to be an NHL goalie, more like it's all a hassle to him and he just wants the game to be over. I made the point about being married, that could easily be a distraction. Especially for a goalie, who needs to have iron concentration. Maybe sitting will be the best thing for him

[Stormin Norman]

Wow, some good, passionate points of view on this. Let's keep it nice, and impersonal, because, guess what, your opinion is as good as mine.

 

With that said, someone wrote they hope Miller has a shutout next game and that ends the controversy. It won't. In my struggle to fully buy in to Ryan Miller, it is his inconsistency over time that makes me uncomfortable. So I could absolutely see him getting a shutout in his next start. It doesn't alter my view that he can be somewhat of a goaltending savant: brilliant beyond belief when he is zoned in, but looks like a lost head case for stretches thereafter. Is he looking over his shoulder at Enroth and not liking what he sees?

 

Every time I think Enroth is going to flame out, he looks solid. Last year's intense run to get into the playoffs told me he can win big games. Quite frankly, he intrigues me like Barrasso did as a rookie. If the goal is to win Cups, you can't ignore a guy that just wins.

 

(Disclaimer: I am a Miller fan. I have an authentic Miller jersey signed by Ryan. I like they guy. But I love Stanley Cups).

[nfreeman]

Kinda ... but several things are different ... Edwards and Sauve were the same age, for one thing, although Edwards had that one 72-game season that did entrench him as the starter. Still, very different dynamic.

But most importantly ... the money matters. It just does. Not just the big number Miller makes but how it relates to the salary cap ... in this day and age, we are all GMs and capologists just waiting to be discovered, right? These issues did not exist in the early 80s, so the thing played itself out with minimal fan pressure either way compared to today.

 

People look at it and say Miller makes almost 10x what Enroth makes, he's never won anything, Enroth is playing great, so therefore Miller MUST be way overpaid and has to go. Even if he is a LITTLE better, he's not 10x better! His wife likes L.A.! Trade him for a center! As if it were that easy.

 

Plus, I think some people just wanted Miller to apologize and say he sucked vs. Philly, and that's just not him. He admitted he blew the first goal vs. Florida, he took responsibility. But he's not going to fake it, and he believed those were great shots that he played technically correctly and got beat. For some reason, this makes him a crybaby. I don't agree, he's just kind of a weird dude who gets lost in his own head enough as it is. His big thing a couple years ago was not being so hard on himself and focusing on the next shot, not the one that went in. So he's not going to convince himself he sucked on a play just to make other people happy. If that is condescending, implying that most people would not understand the technical side of it, so be it. Doesn't make it wrong.

 

Whatever the case ... perhaps Enroth is going to be THE starter sooner than anyone thought. Maybe Miller does get dealt in the offseason (I can't imagine that kind of blockbuster coming together in-season given the cap issues). I just hate that we can't feel good about our "other" goalie without slamming Miller and making him out to be a sieve and a choker and all that other stuff. He's a very good goalie ... if the right move is to move him eventually, fine, but I'd hate to see him run out of town based on the HOPE that MAYBE Enroth can eventually prove to be better. Before the season his numbers were essentially the same as Miller's. Are we really ready to annoint him as better now based on 4 starts? Scary to me.

Good post. You are right that the Edwards-Sauve situation was very different. And I'm a big Miller fan and am certainly not in the "trade him for a center" group (as if that trade were a realistic possibility anyway). Still, we can't completely write off the possibility that something is happening here. I don't think it's likely, but it's far from impossible.

[Weave]

We've seen this happen several times over the Sabres history. Edwards-Sauve is just one example. Puppa came onto the scene and made Barasso expendable too. And of course Hasek got his shot when Fuhr hurt his knee. Heck, Miller did it to Biron. In every case the newer guy came in as the backup. Did a nice job in that roll, and eventually convinced management that they were ready for the #1 job.

 

This sort of situation happens on every team. Young guy comes in cuz the starter is down. Young guy does well. Young guy starts to get more games in. Eventually starter is displaced. I'm not saying it is inevitable here. Enroth could cool off and show that he isn't quite suited to a starting role. But he certainly could end up giving management enough confidence to take the starting roll over.

[inkman]

In my struggle to fully buy in to Ryan Miller

 

(Disclaimer: I am a Miller fan. I have an authentic Miller jersey signed by Ryan. I like they guy. But I love Stanley Cups).

:blink:

 

Isn't getting a jersey literally buying into a player?

[Stormin Norman]

:blink:

 

Isn't getting a jersey literally buying into a player?

 

Yes, as I said, I am a Miller fan. I didn't make my observations as a Miller-hater. I also have a Miller USA Olympic jersey. But I want the Sabres to win a Cup. And if that means Jonas Enroth or Joe Daley or Jerome Howard are in net when we win it, so be it! Whoever gets it done!

[X. Benedict]

Wow, some good, passionate points of view on this. Let's keep it nice, and impersonal, because, guess what, your opinion is as good as mine.

 

With that said, someone wrote they hope Miller has a shutout next game and that ends the controversy. It won't. In my struggle to fully buy in to Ryan Miller, it is his inconsistency over time that makes me uncomfortable.

I really think it is a flawed perception. (with no offense intended)

 

IMO, Miller is as consistent as they come. Especially over time. He's pretty much been bankable for 60-65 starts and 30 to 40 wins.

 

The odd blown start is nothing to sweat.

[donteatyellowsnow]

I really think it is a flawed perception. (with no offense intended)

 

IMO, Miller is as consistent as they come. Especially over time. He's pretty much been bankable for 60-65 starts and 30 to 40 wins.

 

The odd blown start is nothing to sweat.

 

 

I agree, this is true, but since the lockout, I think Buffalo could have had any competent goalie put up the same numbers as Miller has (no Lalime or Tbo).

 

I also see him as inconsistant. The door, which has always been open, is wide open now and Enroth is walking right through and I don't think Ryan is too keen on that. I'm interested to see how Ryan reacts, because in the end I want the Sabres to win regardless.

[X. Benedict]

I agree, this is true, but since the lockout, I think Buffalo could have had any competent goalie put up the same numbers as Miller has (no Lalime or Tbo).

 

It is a very short list IMO. There might be 20 to 30 active goaltenders with 100 wins in this league. That's about all. You might get a guy to put up great stats for a 30-40 game stretch, but that is about as far as most goalies ever get. If a goaltender is bankable for 30 to 40 wins in 60 starts every year that can't be underestimated.

 

Except maybe in Buffalo. ;)

 

 

 

I also see him as inconsistant. The door, which has always been open, is wide open now and Enroth is walking right through and I don't think Ryan is too keen on that. I'm interested to see how Ryan reacts, because in the end I want the Sabres to win regardless.

 

Enroth certainly has earned some more time. It isn't a zero sum game though. Two keepers are a great thing to have. If I'm Lindy I put him in starts against teams that haven't seen him yet.

[donteatyellowsnow]

It is a very short list IMO. There might be 20 to 30 active goaltenders with 100 wins in this league. That's about all. You might get a guy to put up great stats for a 30-40 game stretch, but that is about as far as most goalies ever get. If a goaltender is bankable for 30 to 40 wins in 60 starts every year that can't be underestimated.

 

Except maybe in Buffalo. ;)

 

 

Enroth certainly has earned some more time. It isn't a zero sum game though. Two keepers are a great thing to have. If I'm Lindy I put him in starts against teams that haven't seen him yet.

 

 

 

 

I happen to think that list is longer than you think. Contrary to what some think, Miller has been surrounded by some pretty good talent and a stable coaching staff during his time in Buffalo. IMHO that has absolutely helped him in the wins column, and given him better stats.

 

Put Miller in Columbus the past 8 years and he isn't nearly as productive. So for me the wins for a goalie are overrated it's all about the GAA and SV%, which if he had played in Columbus wouldn't have been as good as they have been.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Miller is Philip Rivers

 

Enroth is Josh Freeman

[drnkirishone]

I happen to think that list is longer than you think. Contrary to what some think, Miller has been surrounded by some pretty good talent and a stable coaching staff during his time in Buffalo. IMHO that has absolutely helped him in the wins column, and given him better stats.

 

Put Miller in Columbus the past 8 years and he isn't nearly as productive. So for me the wins for a goalie are overrated it's all about the GAA and SV%, which if he had played in Columbus wouldn't have been as good as they have been.

I don't think there is a goalie playing in the nhl at the moment that would of been considered productive if they had to play in Columbus the past 8 years.

 

Here is my take on Miller back in the first season post lockout. Can't get a shutout nor will he put up big numbers but he makes the save you need to win the game. I think I might of even made a Grant Fuhr reference to him that season.

 

imo Miller has slowly moved away from the let goals in but make the big saves to being a more reliable goalie when it comes to making saves and I think alot of that has to do with him changing his game to suit the team in front of him. Coming out of the lockout we had a high risk game where we where trading odd man rushes and putting the goalies in spectacular save positions. Now we are a bit more conservative with our forwards on the rush and aren't trading chances as much so the goalies need to make more routine saves (point shots and deflections)

[billsrcursed]

It is a very short list IMO. There might be 20 to 30 active goaltenders with 100 wins in this league. That's about all. You might get a guy to put up great stats for a 30-40 game stretch, but that is about as far as most goalies ever get. If a goaltender is bankable for 30 to 40 wins in 60 starts every year that can't be underestimated.

 

Except maybe in Buffalo. ;)

 

 

 

 

Enroth certainly has earned some more time. It isn't a zero sum game though. Two keepers are a great thing to have. If I'm Lindy I put him in starts against teams that haven't seen him yet.

 

This is what is confusing to me; why are we in such a rush to get rid of one of them? Why can't we win with both goaltenders? Fans are funny...

[neverenough]

Miller is Philip Rivers

 

Enroth is Josh Freeman

 

 

 

Miller = Lee Evans and Enroth = Steve Johnson :lol:

[LastPommerFan]

(1)Enroth is an unknown commodity. His value as a starter is completely unknown at this point, in my opinion, Enroth is 2 seasons away from fully developing as an NHL netminder.

 

(2)Miller is 18 months removed from a 18 month stretch when he was HANDS DOWN the best active goalie on the planet. He has never cost the Sabres a playoff series. Now, in my opinion, a technical positional netminder like Ryan is going to be more affected by a defense that is in the process of gelling. Once the changes from the off season settle in, he's going to be back on top of the goalie heap.

 

(3)Once the D start playing with some positional consistency, we should be looking to set the record for fewest GA since the lockout.

 

A few further thoughts on the cliffs notes version of my previous post:

 

(1) Enroth is still adjusting to some of the things that are unique to the NHL: Traffic in front of the net as the puck moves from dot to dot, and the skill and stick speed of some forwards on the break. I think he was exposed for both of these on the last 5 pucks that have wound up in the net. I think with good coaching, he'll get better at both, but it will take a couple seasons.

 

(2) Miller's sv% is STILL 5th on the active list for career save percentage, and last season actually IMPROVED his numbers. The man is the model of goal tending consistency. He sits behind Luongo, Thomas, Lundqvist, and Vokoun. With the exception of Vokoun, all of these goalies have played with better defensive teams than Ryan. If this defense figures out how to play strong positional hockey (not looking for 3 Norris Candidates, just good positioning), Miller is the right guy.

 

(3) The record is 184 GA, we are currently on pace for 180, and I believe we will get better, Patrick should set this as a regular season challenge to the team. Be the best defense ever (and by ever, of course I mean post lock-out).

[wjag]

Miller is Philip Rivers

 

Enroth is Josh Freeman

 

How about Miller is Arian Foster

 

Enroth is Ben Tate..

[shrader]

I really think it is a flawed perception. (with no offense intended)

 

IMO, Miller is as consistent as they come. Especially over time. He's pretty much been bankable for 60-65 starts and 30 to 40 wins.

 

The odd blown start is nothing to sweat.

 

I missed the Florida game so I'm not sure exactly what happened there, but isn't that exactly what we're talking about here, one game? As for these comments about the team finally having goaltending depth, I'll disagree to an extent. You don't have depth unless you have 3. I will suddenly be very uncomfortable if either of these guys are gone for a long stretch.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

How about Miller is Arian Foster

 

Enroth is Ben Tate..

 

That may be better since it doesn't matter who plays on that team because the coach thinks he's brilliant and they always will disappoint in the end.

[billsrcursed]

I missed the Florida game so I'm not sure exactly what happened there, but isn't that exactly what we're talking about here, one game? As for these comments about the team finally having goaltending depth, I'll disagree to an extent. You don't have depth unless you have 3. I will suddenly be very uncomfortable if either of these guys are gone for a long stretch.

 

Well sure, three is "deeper" than two, but we're certainly better off with Enroth than we were with Lalime... if one goes down, we're back to where we were the last few years, and that's assuming Enroth continues to play at a high level (assuming Miller's the one who gets injured).

 

I still think it's a great problem to have and see no issues with both getting plenty of playing time. I disagree with the notion that the two can't co-exist, especially given Enroth's short tenure in the NHL.

[shrader]

Well sure, three is "deeper" than two, but we're certainly better off with Enroth than we were with Lalime... if one goes down, we're back to where we were the last few years, and that's assuming Enroth continues to play at a high level (assuming Miller's the one who gets injured).

 

I still think it's a great problem to have and see no issues with both getting plenty of playing time. I disagree with the notion that the two can't co-exist, especially given Enroth's short tenure in the NHL.

 

No doubt, but if we're going to say we have the depth to make a move, that's where I disagree. There is no decent 3rd goalie option in house. One trade and the goalie position goes from a position of incredible strength to a major question mark.