If the goal is to Win Cups...

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

It's almost fashion show season. That should snap Miller out of his funk.

 

Miller is the better goalie. Some people are just getting a little tired of a 30 year old man acting like an 8 year old when things don't go perfect for him. How many of us in life have the luxury of things going perfectly? Champions make things happen in the midst of chaos. That has been my biggest knock on Miller. He is a good guy, he is a technical wizard, he wants to succeed....but in the middle of war, he can't seem to shake off watching his buddy stepping on a landmine.

 

That has always been my beef with the entire organization. Book Smarts.....not "Do'ers". Darcy, Lindy, Miller....the holy trinity are all decent in a structured layout, but on the fly, Ruff is the only one who has any ability to "flow". He loves his system though.

 

The debate isn't who is the better goalie, it's why anyone expects any of these guys to change at this point in life.

[LastPommerFan]

I would suggest changing the title of this thread to "Goaltender Debate: Enter at your own risk" I just want the conversation to exist without people complaining that the conversation exists. This is an important debate for this team, but if every other post in the thread is about how the thread is stupid, it'll get co-opted and shut down again. I think the disclaimer will help.

[wjag]

I would suggest changing the title of this thread to "Goaltender Debate: Enter at your own risk" I just want the conversation to exist without people complaining that the conversation exists. This is an important debate for this team, but if every other post in the thread is about how the thread is stupid, it'll get co-opted and shut down again. I think the disclaimer will help.

 

If it gets shut down, it will just open a new. This is the most debatable topic on the Sabres. It's Kelly v Reich. It won't go away anytime soon unless one gets hurt (long term) or traded. Unlike Kelly v Reich (where one was a bona fide future HOFer), Miller has yet to punch his HOF ticket.

 

I said the other day if I was Miller or Kiprusoff I'm officially worried. Little did I know that meant the VERY next day.

[donteatyellowsnow]

I would suggest changing the title of this thread to "Goaltender Debate: Enter at your own risk" I just want the conversation to exist without people complaining that the conversation exists. This is an important debate for this team, but if every other post in the thread is about how the thread is stupid, it'll get co-opted and shut down again. I think the disclaimer will help.

 

This! I don't understand the need for people to comment if they don't like the thread. Read it and move on, without comment, that is what I do if it is something uninteresting to me.

[bob_sauve28]

I think it is stuff like this that riles people up. Other than 1 year, Miller has NEVER approached top 5 goalie status stat wise. So while you and a ton of others keep saying this stuff, it has never proven out and is purely your opinion which I disagree with and which the stats prove otherwise.

 

Why is impossible for you to believe that there just could be somebody better than Miller? There are a lot better than Miller and I think Enroth is one of them! Right now, so does Ruff.

 

 

I think Miller is a nice guy, an American working class kid, so a lot of people just want him to be our goalie instead of a European kid who just looks unbeatable at times. Hasek was arguably the best athlete ever to play in Buffalo but so many people hated him. That's just how it goes. Miller is obviouly a good goalie, but heck, we have seen a lot of good goalies just the past few games for other teams. He isn't all that special, but he is American, looks and acts like people want him too, etc. I think that big contract, that sexy wife he wants to get home to asap every night have taken the edge off of old Ryan and made him just a little more average. Up comes the young hungry kid with talent and he passes the comfortable well off vet. So it goes. I want to win and right now and sees that Entroth obviously gives us the better chance to do that.

[ColdBlueNorth]

I am all for a team-before-individual attitude, but let's be real. Ryan Miller at his finest is a better goaltender than Jhonas Enroth at his finest. Instead of rooting for Enroth to be the starter, we should be hoping Miller can get his game back on track and be the elite goaltender he has shown he can be. That gives us the best chance to win. I'm amazed at how quickly some Sabres fans have turned on Miller. We're talking about a guy who has given us top 5 goaltending for most of his career, despite having subpar defenses in front of him and despite Ruff's aggressive system that often leaves the goaltender out to dry.

 

Miller is in a funk. He needs to work it out. In the mean time play Enroth. But to those of you that think Enroth is the better goalie or that Miller is the one thing holding this team back from a championship, I think you need to reevaluate the situation a bit. For this team to truly compete for a Cup, they need Miller in net...a physically and mentally healthy Miller. That is what we should be rooting for.

 

What he said. :thumbsup:

 

Seriously, there are times in hockey where a guy has to sit for a while to get his head straight. Instead of being thankful that we have another goalie that can play at a really high level folks just want to label one of them as supreme "starter".

 

Miller has had some issues staying focused, he has started out rough and at the same time we have a team that notoriously starts with the ice tilted towards our net - a really bad combination. The guys in front of him have played really bad when facing an early heavy forecheck, but he has also had issues sealing games where we have had the lead.

 

Enroth has shown that he can slow things down and weather the early storm till the team finds its legs, he has also closed the door at the end of games when we have a one goal lead and that is what we need right now. That is a welcome situation compared to the Lalime liability we have had in the past when Miller was injured or simply exhausted.

 

Ruff is just playing the hot hand, and I am sure that Miller will find his way again. A lot of things can mess with your head and focus; my completely uninformed guess is woman-problems. Just playing the percentages of the things that traditionally tie a man's brains in knots.

 

Sometimes athletes have to have something taken away from them for a while to remember that they actually miss it. Ruff has sat a lot of players, why should Miller be immune. At least Ruff has the luxury of letting him sit and pull himself together.

 

All part of the ups and downs of being a professional athlete in a sport that has a long season with plenty of games left to play.

[drnkirishone]

The first 2 shooters in the shootout is the sort of thing that has me worried with Enroth. He plays a fairly unorthidox style (ala Hasek). The more starts he gets the more shooters in this league are gonna develop a book on him. So the real question is gonna be can he adapt to shooters like Hasek did or is he gonna turn into a bust once the league learns his game.

 

Also it is way way to early to annoint Enroth the savior. All he has done imo is earned more frequent starts.

[nfreeman]

I merely point out his failures in a few clutch games over a lengthy period of time that I have cherry-picked out of context in order to support my theory, while omitting many more clutch games because they refute my theory,and would like to see a different out come.

Fixed it for ya.

 

Give it a rest already. Everyone knows where you stand on this by now.

[dudacek]

First off:

I am kinda befuddled at the amount of attention Miler's wife is being given as the cause of his so-called funk.

I admit I haven't paid a lot of attention to the issue, but I don't think he's the first Sabre to get married.

And I'm pretty sure he's not the first hockey player with a hot wife.

Maybe there's a well-known study explaining the detrimental effects of marriage on hockey players, that I missed.

Or maybe there are posters with inside info about the relationship of Ryan and Mrs. Miller they haven't shared.

But absent of that, I'm amazed at the conclusions being drawn with no more information than "he got married" as a premise.

Then again, a mediocre effort against Tampa and being unable to save the team from its worst 10 minutes of the season against Philly constitutes grounds for "struggling," so what do I know?

 

Which leads to the bigger issue:

I would summarize his play as solid overall, but less than his league-wide reputation promises.

With better play from Miller, we probably would have won the Tampa game. He couldn't put out the fire against Philly. Without Miller's play we lose against Montreal.

He's been decent to good the rest of his starts. His game certainly doesn't have me worried.

 

Enroth has yet to steal us a game, but has been very reliable and earned his back-to-back starts.

He hasn't let in a bad goal and his save percentage is more than .950. Of course he should be playing.

 

This team is 8-5 and its biggest problem so far has been secondary scoring.

We're fifth in goals against in the league.

I am not going to engage in a popularity contest. I'm just going to stay happy about having two good goalies.

[donteatyellowsnow]

Fixed it for ya.

 

Give it a rest already. Everyone knows where you stand on this by now.

 

 

...and here lies my point. No need to comment if this is all your going to say. Why comment at all? Read it and move on with out commenting or is there an overwhelming urge to make comments all the time about everything and anything because your controlling personality dictates that. You must be a real joy to be around on a daily basis.

[LGR4GM]

...and here lies my point. No need to comment if this is all your going to say. Why comment at all? Read it and move on with out commenting or is there an overwhelming urge to make comments all the time about everything and anything because your controlling personality dictates that. You must be a real joy to be around on a daily basis.

Seriously? You are upset that people are questioning your sub-par posts when almost every single post you make is "you suck, this team sucks, I am amazing" spare us. Why don't you ignore the people who make those comments and move. Your controlling, obnoxious personality is one reason why there is a block poster option. Start making some actual comments as opposed to your whining and maybe people will show you a hair of respect but as of right now, no one gives a flying wtf wave if you are pissed at another poster because you are a troll and incapable of making any contributions to this board.

[inkman]

...and here lies my point. No need to comment if this is all your going to say. Why comment at all?

Can't this exact point be made about posters who bang away on the same drum post after post, thread after thread?

[LGR4GM]

Really? Discrediting anything Enroth has done and using lame excuses to do so? LMAO! :rolleyes:

 

 

This! I don't understand the need for people to comment if they don't like the thread. Read it and move on, without comment, that is what I do if it is something uninteresting to me.

 

 

...and here lies my point. No need to comment if this is all your going to say. Why comment at all? Read it and move on with out commenting or is there an overwhelming urge to make comments all the time about everything and anything because your controlling personality dictates that. You must be a real joy to be around on a daily basis.

 

 

Can't this exact point be made about posters who bang away on the same drum post after post, thread after thread?

@inkman: YES. Not to mention he just yells at people who disagree with him but then we are supposed to play nice? snowboy can go ###### himself and his arrogance

[ozone]

After watching the Bills debacle, this thread is very interesting. What are the chances mini-Hasek starts the next game? My guess is that Miller gets the call.

 

I applaud Ruff for rolling with mini-Hasek and creating a controversy for himself because winning is more important.

 

Mini-Hasek : 4-0

Miller : 4-5

 

Puck don't lie.

[nfreeman]

...and here lies my point. No need to comment if this is all your going to say. Why comment at all? Read it and move on with out commenting or is there an overwhelming urge to make comments all the time about everything and anything because your controlling personality dictates that. You must be a real joy to be around on a daily basis.

Ooooooooooohhh. Good one. "You are." "No, YOU are."

 

Time to come up from the basement -- Mom has made your mac and cheese! If you're good you can have a juice box with it!

[X. Benedict]

... then how can Lindy not give serious consideration to making Enroth the starter? An organization designed to win championships has no sacred cows.

 

The more exposed Enroth is the more teams will find his weaknesses. When they find his weaknesses (which they will). It is up to Enroth to adjust his game.

 

Next start for Enroth teams will be shooting for Enroth's 5 hole.

Next start for Miller teams will be shooting for Millers high glove hand.

 

Count on it.

 

Up until now, teams have been putting every kind of shot on Enroth to test him, even bad shots.

 

Miller has shown that when he gets a tendency exposed, he is able to correct it.

 

 

Enroth, if he's the real deal, will be able to adjust too.

 

The nice thing about having two good goalies is that Ruff can start to play poker.

[nfreeman]

As far as the substance of the thread -- for the old-timers here: remember when Bob Sauve muscled his way out of a backup role and into a more or less equal rotation with Don Edwards, and then eventually took the #1 job? I'm not saying that this is what's happening here, but I couldn't help thinking last night that it was a possibility.

[bob_sauve28]

Ooooooooooohhh. Good one. "You are." "No, YOU are."

 

Time to come up from the basement -- Mom has made your mac and cheese! If you're good you can have a juice box with it!

:blink:

[bob_sauve28]

The more exposed Enroth is the more teams will find his weaknesses. When they find his weaknesses (which they will). It is up to Enroth to adjust his game.

 

Next start for Enroth teams will be shooting for Enroth's 5 hole.

Next start for Miller teams will be shooting for Millers high glove hand.

 

Count on it.

 

Up until now, teams have been putting every kind of shot on Enroth to test him, even bad shots.

 

Miller has shown that when he gets a tendency exposed, he is able to correct it.

 

 

Enroth, if he's the real deal, will be able to adjust too.

 

The nice thing about having two good goalies is that Ruff can start to play poker.

 

Well, Enroth was beatin on shoot outs, not in game action like Miller was. Miller was beat from pretty far out, unlike the goals Enroth was. That's a big difference. What was Miller exposed on as a weakness before?

[Bmwolf21]

Oh, brother.

 

Look at the opposition, would ya'. Lindy is actually putting Enroth in a great position to succeed. He really only has one quality win this year (Pittsburgh) and even they were depleted at the time.

 

Why can't we just be grateful that we have a capable back up that can fill in for our starter when he is in a slump (and ALL starters have slumps). No, we have to go nuts and say he Sucks and is fragile and try and run him out of town.

 

I'm done with this topic.

Good post. Backup playing well, well enough to trust him with more work when Ryan struggles, so of course some want to weaken what should be a strong suit and ship out the starter, insert the backup and hope that he can do what he's done for 10-15 games over the course of a 60-game season. And no idea who will be the backup either.

I would suggest changing the title of this thread to "Goaltender Debate: Enter at your own risk" I just want the conversation to exist without people complaining that the conversation exists. This is an important debate for this team, but if every other post in the thread is about how the thread is stupid, it'll get co-opted and shut down again. I think the disclaimer will help.

Good idea.

Give it a rest already. Everyone knows where you stand on this by now.

Can't this exact point be made about posters who bang away on the same drum post after post, thread after thread?

Yes, yes it can. It's getting tiresome.

[X. Benedict]

Well, Enroth was beatin on shoot outs, not in game action like Miller was. Miller was beat from pretty far out, unlike the goals Enroth was. That's a big difference. What was Miller exposed on as a weakness before?

 

Miller has struggled high glove hand before. And he'll be alright.

Against the Flyers those high glovers were perfect shots, goalposts and in.

Still I think he should have had them.

 

Enroth has been helped by his goalposts the last two games. I counted 6 off the goalposts and out - (not sure if that's accurate).

 

Condra shot fiver on his breakaway. Two were fiver on the shootout. Not sure how Michalek's got in.

[donteatyellowsnow]

Seriously? You are upset that people are questioning your sub-par posts when almost every single post you make is "you suck, this team sucks, I am amazing" spare us. Why don't you ignore the people who make those comments and move. Your controlling, obnoxious personality is one reason why there is a block poster option. Start making some actual comments as opposed to your whining and maybe people will show you a hair of respect but as of right now, no one gives a flying wtf wave if you are pissed at another poster because you are a troll and incapable of making any contributions to this board.

 

:clapping: Nice way to miss my point. That's ok, I understand it is to complex for you. Really, you'll be ok! Trust me.

[Andrew Amerk]

I hope Miller gets a shutout in his next start, so that this topic can stop for just a couple of days.

[Robviously]

I am all for a team-before-individual attitude, but let's be real. Ryan Miller at his finest is a better goaltender than Jhonas Enroth at his finest.

Really? You're sure already? Because Jhonas Enroth is a 23 year old with a 2.45 career GAA and Ryan Miller is a 31 year old with a 2.57 career GAA.

 

So:

1. We probably don't even know what Enroth's best is yet. Maybe he's a flash in the pan or maybe he's a guy with 18 career starts who is still getting better.

2. Miller has had as many mediocre stretches as he's had brilliant stretches. Maybe he's just a good goalie and not a superstar.

[X. Benedict]

Really? You're sure already? Because Jhonas Enroth is a 23 year old with a 2.45 career GAA and Ryan Miller is a 31 year old with a 2.57 career GAA.

 

So:

1. We probably don't even know what Enroth's best is yet. Maybe he's a flash in the pan or maybe he's a guy with 18 career starts who is still getting better.

2. Miller has had as many mediocre stretches as he's had brilliant stretches. Maybe he's just a good goalie and not a superstar.

 

All goalies have mediocre stretches. Some goalies play pretty well and still lose.

 

 

Check out a lot of Marty Brodeur's Octobers. I think he won the Vezina twice post-lockout and had some brutal October stretches. The great goalies correct.

 

Miller will work it out.

 

Enroth? Who knows. I like what i've seen. But I wouldn't be ready to bank the franchise on him.