Transfer of Power: THE EMERGENCE OF ENROTH!

[HopefulFuture]

The Fact is, THE SABRES AS A TEAM, haven't won those "Clutch" games. Its your opinion saying that Milelr hasn't won those games. if you look at the FACTS, ie. more then just the win/loss, you would see that he has played good enough to win, or was the entire reason they were in most of those "clutch games"

Well, if you view it as such, then that is your opinion and I respect that.

But, it brings me back to my point that Enroth is as good as Miller (and will be better in those clutch games) and therefore Miller is the expendable piece given his age, body of work to date and the return he should bring that will undoubtedly help on the offensive side for this club.

[HopefulFuture]

Name 3 stud centerman up for grabs, especially if the only thing you have to offer is a Goalie looking to rebound who's on $7 mill odd.

I don't have to name 3 stud centermen up for grabs, your dealing with oranges, I'm dealing with apples.

 

I'll counter your question with this:

Name those teams that wouldn't consider trading a stud centerman (if they have one) for Ryan Miller (or a package including Ryan Miller) outside of Boston, Nashville and maybe the Canadians?

[HopefulFuture]

This will make us the 2009-2011 Flyers. I don't care if you go get Brad Richards. Enroth is not good enough (at this point) to carry even a center-stacked team to the cup. He has gotten away with some terrible performances. If he is the starter on a regular basis, that will not continue. Much growing to do, but I am confident that in 2 years we will have a good choice to make between miller and jhonas.

No it wouldn't in my opinion.

Not with Enroth (who I consider every bit as good as Miller) pulling duty between the pipes.

[apuszczalowski]

This will make us the 2009-2011 Flyers. I don't care if you go get Brad Richards. Enroth is not good enough (at this point) to carry even a center-stacked team to the cup. He has gotten away with some terrible performances. If he is the starter on a regular basis, that will not continue. Much growing to do, but I am confident that in 2 years we will have a good choice to make between miller and jhonas.

I wouldn't say he isn't good enough, but what I would say is that we don't have any evidence to prove that he is good enough at this time. He has started less than 30 games in the NHL in his career, yet people here think they have seen enough in him to dump Miller and hand things over to Enroth? This reminds me of Bills fans and Trent Edwards who people thought was the answer at QB for them after seeing him in a couple games and the preseason, due to his great "Poise" in the pocket

 

Enroth has shown that he may end up being a very capable starting goaltender in the NHL, but right now there is no reason to make that move with him. Blame gaoltending all you want for the Sabres start, but there plenty of bigger problems on this team right now, and besides throwing out a ton of money in the offseason, this time is not much better then it was last year, just less cap room.

 

Its funny, everyone praises Enroth for his performance so far, but why doesn't anyone bring up that they almost blew the game he started at home against Columbus, the worst team in the NHL last week? The Sabres were up 2-0 in that game and the Blue jackets tied the game. Same thing happens to Miller against Florida and its "The Enroth should start, Miller overrated"

[dEnnis the Menace]

I don't have to name 3 stud centermen up for grabs, your dealing with oranges, I'm dealing with apples.

 

I'll counter your question with this:

Name those teams that wouldn't consider trading a stud centerman (if they have one) for Ryan Miller (or a package including Ryan Miller) outside of Boston, Nashville and maybe the Canadians?

 

you just spun his question back at him with different wording. you turned his orange into a clementine, which is still a variance of an orange :doh:

 

What about Broduer...ESPN has a nice article/opinion column regarding the play of Miller and Broduer. If youwere NJ and Broduer goes on a bad stretch...what do you do? LINKY

 

Broduer has almost identical career save percentage and a slightly lower GAA. Would you recommend trading him at any down point in his career?

[LastPommerFan]

Well, if you view it as such, then that is your opinion and I respect that.

But, it brings me back to my point that Enroth is as good as Miller (and will be better in those clutch games) and therefore Miller is the expendable piece given his age, body of work to date and the return he should bring that will undoubtedly help on the offensive side for this club.

 

You base your argument on such faulty premises that it is insulting. you list the 4 playoff series the team has lost with him in net, and they all fall on his shoulders. Meanwhile, he receives no credit for the 4 playoff series that he won. You knock him for losing a Olympic Elimination game, but no credit for winning 2 others. You would list Roberto Luongo as a clutch goalie because he "won" the gold medal? Again, the argument starts by throwing out 100% of the professional analysis of every hockey analyst. Not a good place to start.

[apuszczalowski]

Herein lay the difference.

 

Well then, once again, you can't get around my thoughts on who should be the starter. I whole-heartedly believe Enroth should be the starter and Miller should be gone in a trade, or, the backup if you like.

I firmly believe Enroth is everybit as good a goalie as Miller and I also believe he will out perform Miller when it comes to those "clutch games" I speak of.

 

I especially like the talent analysis in this write up on him......

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/jhonas_enroth

 

He does have the ability to perform in big games, just as Miller does, but I believe Enroth succeeds where Miller has failed to date......

Based on what, his less than 30 starts in the NHL?

 

What Big games in the NHL has Enroth played in that proves that he has the ability to perform in those games?

[RazielSabre]

I don't have to name 3 stud centermen up for grabs, your dealing with oranges, I'm dealing with apples.

 

I'll counter your question with this:

Name those teams that wouldn't consider trading a stud centerman (if they have one) for Ryan Miller (or a package including Ryan Miller) outside of Boston, Nashville and maybe the Canadians?

Capitals, Pens, Philly, LA, Carolina, NYR, Oilers, Calgary, Anahiem, Colorado.

 

Thanks not including teams with no cap space.

 

EDIT: DTM is right, turning my question back is pointless, still play the game though.

[HopefulFuture]

you just spun his question back at him with different wording. you turned his orange into a clementine, which is still a variance of an orange :doh:

 

What about Broduer...ESPN has a nice article/opinion column regarding the play of Miller and Broduer. If youwere NJ and Broduer goes on a bad stretch...what do you do? LINKY

 

Broduer has almost identical career save percentage and a slightly lower GAA. Would you recommend trading him at any down point in his career?

Yes, yes I did.

And as for the article on Miller/Broduer, looks even better for a trade scenario involving Miller.

I am not recommending anything, merely stating my opinion that I would like to see it happen.

As for the reason, it has nothing to do with a "bad stretch of games" as you called it. I gave my reasoning as to why (the lack of clutch game performances combined with the need to address the teams forward position with regards to center, inparticular, a stud center).

[HopefulFuture]

You base your argument on such faulty premises that it is insulting. you list the 4 playoff series the team has lost with him in net, and they all fall on his shoulders. Meanwhile, he receives no credit for the 4 playoff series that he won. You knock him for losing a Olympic Elimination game, but no credit for winning 2 others. You would list Roberto Luongo as a clutch goalie because he "won" the gold medal? Again, the argument starts by throwing out 100% of the professional analysis of every hockey analyst. Not a good place to start.

I make no apology for my belief in Miller's inability to perform in clutch games.

I am not here to make friends or enemies for that matter, merely to give my unfiltered opinion and respond to those in kind when I wish.

 

I fail to see why I would look to the "professional analysis of every hockey analyst" when I have the historical record to back my opinion on his "clutch game" performances.

As I have stated, Winners win, Leaders lead.

[dEnnis the Menace]

Yes, yes I did.

And as for the article on Miller/Broduer, looks even better for a trade scenario involving Miller.

I am not recommending anything, merely stating my opinion that I would like to see it happen.

As for the reason, it has nothing to do with a "bad stretch of games" as you called it. I gave my reasoning as to why (the lack of clutch game performances combined with the need to address the teams forward position with regards to center, inparticular, a stud center).

 

why is the need for a stud center so important still? Adam seems to be filling in our first line just fine. We don't need a flashy Crosby to get the job done with our first line. We need to fix our second line right now, as the first line seems to be scoring almost at will (42 points combined thru 11 games...just about at will). I don't see us trading away Miller for second line players.

[RazielSabre]

Yes, yes I did.

And as for the article on Miller/Broduer, looks even better for a trade scenario involving Miller.

I am not recommending anything, merely stating my opinion that I would like to see it happen.

As for the reason, it has nothing to do with a "bad stretch of games" as you called it. I gave my reasoning as to why (the lack of clutch game performances combined with the need to address the teams forward position with regards to center, inparticular, a stud center).

 

Since we're playing 'what would happen in a different dimension' what happens if we get a center and he royally blows, Enroth can't cut it or gets an injury and we rely on Macintyre/Leggio as no.1 for a 15 game stretch.

[HopefulFuture]

Based on what, his less than 30 starts in the NHL?

 

What Big games in the NHL has Enroth played in that proves that he has the ability to perform in those games?

Based on his skill sets (which, if you bothered to research his junior career you'd see) and by his ability to show patience in training within the AHL (the transition to the NA game) combined with his swagger, if you will, mentally.

I believe he has all the makings of a fine goaltender that will undoubtedly remove Miller from the throne quite honestly, in my opinion.

 

I also believe this will lead to a better overall competitive edge for the Sabres.

[dEnnis the Menace]

Since we're playing 'what would happen in a different dimension' what happens if we get a center and he royally blows, Enroth can't cut it or gets an injury and we rely on Macintyre/Leggio as no.1 for a 15 game stretch.

 

this is what I was trying to propose, but he blew that off.... <_<

[RazielSabre]

Yes, yes I did.

And as for the article on Miller/Broduer, looks even better for a trade scenario involving Miller.

I am not recommending anything, merely stating my opinion that I would like to see it happen.

As for the reason, it has nothing to do with a "bad stretch of games" as you called it. I gave my reasoning as to why (the lack of clutch game performances combined with the need to address the teams forward position with regards to center, inparticular, a stud center).

 

Name the games that made you lose faith in Team USA's goalie?

[RazielSabre]

this is what I was trying to propose, but he blew that off.... <_<

 

:lol: Snowmobiler97 muchly?

[HopefulFuture]

why is the need for a stud center so important still? Adam seems to be filling in our first line just fine. We don't need a flashy Crosby to get the job done with our first line. We need to fix our second line right now, as the first line seems to be scoring almost at will (42 points combined thru 11 games...just about at will). I don't see us trading away Miller for second line players.

The absence of Briere/Drury was obviously lost on you (both of which played center with the Sabres).

I don't believe you've acknowledged the past 4 seasons.

[apuszczalowski]

Yes, yes I did.

And as for the article on Miller/Broduer, looks even better for a trade scenario involving Miller.

I am not recommending anything, merely stating my opinion that I would like to see it happen.

As for the reason, it has nothing to do with a "bad stretch of games" as you called it. I gave my reasoning as to why (the lack of clutch game performances combined with the need to address the teams forward position with regards to center, inparticular, a stud center).

The Lack of Clutch Game performance - Which has been proven to be just your opinion based on which team won and which one lost as many posters have given facts to show that this isn't true and Miller has performed well in those situations, and Hockey is a TEAM sport.

 

The need to address the teams forward position - Which you have not been able to give any possible option where a team might be willing to give up a top centre for goaltending help (And why would a team be willing to trade a top centre for an average goalie who can't perform in "clutch games"?). You are also suggesting the team give away its one strength, goaltending, in order to address something it could have done this offseason, find a decent Centre? leino is the answer at Centre, atleast according to Darcy

[HopefulFuture]

this is what I was trying to propose, but he blew that off.... <_<

In articulate circles, they call it "brushing it aside". Afterall, isn't that what the organization did when they brought in Lalaime?

Just sayin............

[RazielSabre]

There is nothing ripping about my comments on Miller as opposed to Enroth (for those attempting to state it).

And there is nothing that says Enroth will do any better long term as well, it's merely my opinion.

I am looking at all input on this subject from the fan base, so I'm not trying to be argumentative on it, just stating my opinion on it it all.

 

You asked "What must win games has Miller lost?

I submit the following list:

Game 7 Carolina

Game 6 Boston

Game 7 Philadelphia

Gold Medal Game, 2010 Olympics

(and although not a must win game, a very high profile game that comes with its own pressures to perform) Winter Classic

 

Here's the season ending loss for the 07/08 season:

http://espn.go.com/nhl/recap/_/id/280403010/buffalo-sabres-vs-montreal-canadiens

If your an elite goalie, you have to will the team to victory by your very performance.

 

I am also looking at his career stats.

Nothing outside of the Olympic season screams out elite goaltender here.

$6.25 million for a slightly above average netminder who appears to choke in clutch situations is what I base my opinion on.

 

From your own link:

 

The addition of Enroth to the Sabres in 2011-12 should allow Ryan Miller to take more games off as Enroth gives Buffalo a reliable, occasionally game stealing backup.

 

b-a-c-k-u-p.

[dEnnis the Menace]

The absence of Briere/Drury was obviously lost on you (both of which played center with the Sabres).

I don't believe you've acknowledged the past 4 seasons.

 

I've acknowledged the past 4 seasons, I think we found A missing piece with Adam. i don't think trading away Miller for a better second line center is what we need to do. Roy isn't cutting it right now, but he might come around. i'd be open to trading someone (not miller) for a better second line center, heck, move roy to the third and put goose on the fourth. that would be good. I think handcuffing our goaltending situation again (have YOU neglected to see the past 4 seasons of no competent backup?) would cripple us.

[HopefulFuture]

The Lack of Clutch Game performance - Which has been proven to be just your opinion based on which team won and which one lost as many posters have given facts to show that this isn't true and Miller has performed well in those situations, and Hockey is a TEAM sport.

 

The need to address the teams forward position - Which you have not been able to give any possible option where a team might be willing to give up a top centre for goaltending help (And why would a team be willing to trade a top centre for an average goalie who can't perform in "clutch games"?). You are also suggesting the team give away its one strength, goaltending, in order to address something it could have done this offseason, find a decent Centre? leino is the answer at Centre, atleast according to Darcy

Really?

Because I go to 41 (well, normally 41, except for those pesky Eruo games) every season and I don't see any championship banners in the rafters or pictures of the Stanley Cup being hoisted by the current Sabres netminder.

Did I miss something or is almost good enough now good enough?

[RazielSabre]

Really?

Because I go to 41 (well, normally 41, except for those pesky Eruo games) every season and I don't see any championship banners in the rafters or pictures of the Stanley Cup being hoisted by the current Sabres netminder.

Did I miss something or is almost good enough now good enough?

 

So that makes him worse than Enroth, I assume Hasek sucked here as well then?

[LastPommerFan]

I make no apology for my belief in Miller's inability to perform in clutch games.

I am not here to make friends or enemies for that matter, merely to give my unfiltered opinion and respond to those in kind when I wish.

 

I fail to see why I would look to the "professional analysis of every hockey analyst" when I have the historical record to back my opinion on his "clutch game" performances.

As I have stated, Winners win, Leaders lead.

 

That's just it, you don't have the historical record. You have a selective set of data points chosen to directly prove your position. It is dishonest and I will not stand for it. It brings the board down. And it devalues all the other, often good, posts you make. Your mistake in the assumption here is hurting yourself and others, and it should be corrected.

[dEnnis the Menace]

So that makes him worse than Enroth, I assume Hasek sucked here as well then?

 

But his performance in clutch games should not be brought into question, since it probably was his fault for the Dallas series, and to admit as much would mean that Hasek and Miller are close to the same rung on the ladder. :rolleyes: