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Transfer of Power: THE EMERGENCE OF ENROTH!


HopefulFuture

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Posted

So because Enroth was playing with a solid d means we should discredit his performance? He performed amazingly in the shootouts, bounced back from bad plays quickly and stays focused. His glove hand is ridiculous and he tracks the puck like a veteran. Again I see what you're saying but it seems as though you don't think Enroth played a role at all in our late post season performance. To say that the team in front of him won those games suggests that we were playing with an empty for all of those games.

 

I am saying Enroth played sufficiently well to get through the stretch. In the Playoff Clinching Game, Enroth let in 2 weak goals in a 30 second span to blow the lead. Miller replaced him at the break and pitched a shutout through the third and OT to secure the win. There is this tendency to remember only the good about Enroth and only the Bad about Miller. And I will not stand for it. I will not stand for it. THERE WERE NO SHOOTOUTS IN MARCH OR APRIL LAST YEAR! you are remembering games from earlier in the season against a terrible Toronto team and a struggling Devils team. And in the Devils game he let up 4 goals on 29 shots in regulation. The guy is not ready to not win us a championship...yet.

Posted

Miller had a .930 save % and a 2.14 GAA going into last night. I don't think he's the problem.

 

What "must win" games has Miller lost? Last night was not a "must win" game, it was game 10 of an 82 game season. No one has made the playoffs by winning their 10th game. Are you referring to the game 7 he lost to Carolina in 2006 with an AHL defense in front of him? The Olympics? Last season vs Philly? What exactly are you referring to?

 

Last night we lost because we didn't show up until sometime after 8:00 and couldn't score on the power play at all. Miller let in 2 soft goals, but Philly coasted the last 50 minutes of the game and we couldn't tie it.

 

All this sensationalized "sky is falling" crap needs to stop. Its a long season.

 

I agree

Posted

You made the statement that "expecting a HASEK type performance every night" as though that is what I had posted.

Not true at all, therefor, when the facts of Miller's professional performances in "clutch", must win games presented themselves to you, you immediately attempt to word play the situation to some type of advantage for what I can only assume is a win for your arguement.

However, it was and still is clearly defined, you can't argue against the historical facts I presented in those big game moments because they have already been played out. You could argue that it may change in the future given his overall performance as a netminder at the professional level. I would listen to the reasoning as to the why's.

 

But, I stand firm in my convictions on Ryan Miller, I am of the opinion this organization should use him to bring in a most needed stud center, either standalone or in a package deal. His performance with the Sabres not withstanding, his failures in the "Big Game" catagory duely noted and Enroth's emergence as not only the future, but quite capable of handling the current netminding duties successfully lead me to stand strong on my thoughts on this.

 

So we trade Miller for a #1 center, and then we have Lindy overworking Enroth, and then :blink: woah, now he looks just like miller. Miller is in a funk right now, and I believe like Jerry that Enroth should get a few more starts now until Miller is out of his funk.

 

I am a team sport player, have played many team sports, and am a firm believer that when the team loses it is not because of 1 individual, but rather what the TEAM did or did not do. Watch the olympic goal again: Crosby is skating untouched through the low slot, next to the crease. The defenseman is responsible for him, and responsible for stopping him from taking any shot. the defenseman just let him keep skating by him. Does he get a free pass? by no means, but if the defenseman picks up his responsibility, the shot doesn't go off...

 

Winter Classic: Did you see the ONLY goal he gave up? He made two initial saves (one being a poke check), but again his defense let the opposing player crash the net to scoop up the poked out puck. He didn't let another goal in until (whadaya know) Sydney Crosby scores in the shootout.

 

I don't like how Miller doesn't just take the responsibility for losses, but at the same time, it is a team sport. How about that Montreal game? Or the Florida game? Both times he shut the door. And in the Philly series last year, those 1-0 shutouts (yes plural)? The man carries the team better than Luongo, among other goalies IMO. It just seems like you expect a Hasek type effort from him every night, and since he's been on a losing streak, you're just shy of calling for his head. Where's the acocuntability of the other 3 forward lines, or of the other 2 D pairings?

Posted

I am saying Enroth played sufficiently well to get through the stretch. In the Playoff Clinching Game, Enroth let in 2 weak goals in a 30 second span to blow the lead. Miller replaced him at the break and pitched a shutout through the third and OT to secure the win. There is this tendency to remember only the good about Enroth and only the Bad about Miller. And I will not stand for it. I will not stand for it. THERE WERE NO SHOOTOUTS IN MARCH OR APRIL LAST YEAR! you are remembering games from earlier in the season against a terrible Toronto team and a struggling Devils team. And in the Devils game he let up 4 goals on 29 shots in regulation. The guy is not ready to not win us a championship...yet.

 

Very well said! +1

Posted

I'm not concerned about this little blip on the radar for Miller's play.

I'm way more concerned about the failures I see in him in clutch games.

He has yet to steal a series or tournament winning game, I am not saying Enroth can, I merely pointing out that Enroth is playing well, and I am of the opinion he will continue to do so and in so believing such, I would like the team to move Miller in an effort to bring in that elusive stud center.

 

I do happen to agree with you, and many on here, that it may be beneficial to have 2 good goalies, but then, I am reminded of the Miller/Biron days and how I long for a team that can put up a decent forecheck and pot the puck 3+ times a game.

 

Each and every season, out of the 16 teams that make the playoffs, 15 of them have goalies that ultimately "fail" in must win games. There is no doubt that stellar goaltending is one of the keys to winning a championship, but there are indeed other factors involved in order to prevail in must win games.

Posted

Since the lockout, here are Miller's ranks in GAA and Save %....

 

GAA:

05-06:#11

06-07:#20

07-08:#24

08-09:#18

09-10:#2

10-11:#21

 

Save %:

05-06:#9

06-07:#15

07-08:#29

08-09:#8

09-10:#2

10-11:#17

 

3 of a possible 12 he ranked in the top 10. He ranked outside of the top 20 more often than he ranked in the top 10. Take away the one Vezina year and he doesn't even have good stats much less "superstar" stats. When I hear the terms "Superstar" and "Best goalie in the world" from the media I wonder what the hell they're talking about. Had it not been for the Olympics he would be just another average goaltender. I like Miller, I think he is generally pretty consistent and more often than not, gives the team a chance to win most nights. But as soon as the team, the players, the media and Miller himself get over the fact that he's not as good as they think.......... this team might go somewhere. Stop treating him like the Golden Boy and treat him like every other goaltender gets treated when they don't live up to their expectations.

Posted

So we trade Miller for a #1 center, and then we have Lindy overworking Enroth, and then :blink: woah, now he looks just like miller. Miller is in a funk right now, and I believe like Jerry that Enroth should get a few more starts now until Miller is out of his funk.

 

I am a team sport player, have played many team sports, and am a firm believer that when the team loses it is not because of 1 individual, but rather what the TEAM did or did not do. Watch the olympic goal again: Crosby is skating untouched through the low slot, next to the crease. The defenseman is responsible for him, and responsible for stopping him from taking any shot. the defenseman just let him keep skating by him. Does he get a free pass? by no means, but if the defenseman picks up his responsibility, the shot doesn't go off...

 

Winter Classic: Did you see the ONLY goal he gave up? He made two initial saves (one being a poke check), but again his defense let the opposing player crash the net to scoop up the poked out puck. He didn't let another goal in until (whadaya know) Sydney Crosby scores in the shootout.

 

I don't like how Miller doesn't just take the responsibility for losses, but at the same time, it is a team sport. How about that Montreal game? Or the Florida game? Both times he shut the door. And in the Philly series last year, those 1-0 shutouts (yes plural)? The man carries the team better than Luongo, among other goalies IMO. It just seems like you expect a Hasek type effort from him every night, and since he's been on a losing streak, you're just shy of calling for his head. Where's the acocuntability of the other 3 forward lines, or of the other 2 D pairings?

 

All of this.

 

There's a lot of unnecessary reaching for validating points in this thread. The people arguing against Miller coming up big are ignoring the fact that on many occasions he's the only reason we win games. The people arguing for Enroth are putting a lot of stock in the games he's played well in, which is reasonable but overenthusiatic.

 

Moderation needs to win out here. When Miller is on his game he can be truly unbelievable to watch; but when he's not, it's ugly. Miller one of the star goalies in this league right now, but just like other star performers he can make mistakes, the spotlight just burns brighter on them.

 

When Enroth is hot we like him. If we let him take a bulk load we may not like the results. We should be happy though that we finally have a backup that can win us games. Let's just let him chill in that role for a bit.

 

Last game we had ugly Miller. But many of his games this season have been the top performer Miller that we expect. Enroth played well in relief, but the rest of the team played better as well. I expect this team to put good games together in front of good Miller. Then everything will be zen. In the mean time, let's not get carried away by manufacturing a goalie controversy out of nothing but little wisps of possibility.

Posted

I am saying Enroth played sufficiently well to get through the stretch. In the Playoff Clinching Game, Enroth let in 2 weak goals in a 30 second span to blow the lead. Miller replaced him at the break and pitched a shutout through the third and OT to secure the win. There is this tendency to remember only the good about Enroth and only the Bad about Miller. And I will not stand for it. I will not stand for it. THERE WERE NO SHOOTOUTS IN MARCH OR APRIL LAST YEAR! you are remembering games from earlier in the season against a terrible Toronto team and a struggling Devils team. And in the Devils game he let up 4 goals on 29 shots in regulation. The guy is not ready to not win us a championship...yet.

 

did I say there were shootouts during the playoffs? No, I said he performs well in a shootout. Calm down it's not that serious, so your use of all caps was wasted. Sorry. Also, wasn't there a shootout against the Habs.

 

Also if you read my previous posts you would have seen where I even admitted that I DO NOT think Enroth is ready to be our full time starter but he is an amazing goalie that has tons of potential and has already shown that he can play a solid 60 minutes. And right now he is player better than miller.

Posted

You made the statement that "expecting a HASEK type performance every night" as though that is what I had posted.

Not true at all, therefor, when the facts of Miller's professional performances in "clutch", must win games presented themselves to you, you immediately attempt to word play the situation to some type of advantage for what I can only assume is a win for your arguement.

However, it was and still is clearly defined, you can't argue against the historical facts I presented in those big game moments because they have already been played out. You could argue that it may change in the future given his overall performance as a netminder at the professional level. I would listen to the reasoning as to the why's.

 

But, I stand firm in my convictions on Ryan Miller, I am of the opinion this organization should use him to bring in a most needed stud center, either standalone or in a package deal. His performance with the Sabres not withstanding, his failures in the "Big Game" catagory duely noted and Enroth's emergence as not only the future, but quite capable of handling the current netminding duties successfully lead me to stand strong on my thoughts on this.

Do you actually watch the games or just go by the final score? "Hmmm, the score says the Sabres lost, therefore I guess that means Miller can't perform in clutch games"

 

Just off the top of my head, The Eastern Conference finals against the Canes, Game 5 goes to OT Sabres Lose, Game 6 goes to OT (Sabres lose they are out) they win 2-1 in OT, and in Game 7, the Sabres lose with half of their defence called up from the press box or the AHL before the game.

 

In the Olympics, Team USA loses in the Gold medal game to the heavy home favorites 3-2 in OT, Miller keeps them in the game and forces them to go to OT against Team Canada

 

In the Winter Classic, they go to OT and a Shootout and lose 2-1 (both the Olympics and the WC Shootout, the winner is scored by Crosby)

 

Last years playoffs, he has 2 1-0 shutouts against the Flyers and was playing on a team that had struggled to beat a trio of mediocre NHL goaltenders in Bobrovsky, Leighton and Boucher. They go to OT in games 5 and 6 and then no one shows up for game 7.

 

The Olympics and Winter classic game (only included cause you think this is a "clutch" or "pressure" type game) I think show that Miller is actually a goaltender that performs well in clutch situations, rather then him not. Sure he didn't come up with a Hasek type "Herculian" effort and win the game singe handidly, but his performance was hardly the reason for the losses. Last years playoffs he was one of the reasons why they even had a chance to go to game 7 against a much better Flyers team. If you want to say that Miller doesn't play well in clutch sitautions, then the same can be said for Vanek, and Pommenville, and Roy, and Myers, and <insert any Sabres player Here>.

Posted

This is a Red Herring statement.

No one mentioned every game, just those "clutch" games.

And let's be quite honest with ourselves here, shall we? Clutch players show up in clutch games, it's that simple really.

Paying $6.25 million a season should get you a clutch player, especially in net.

 

Your selective definition of "clutch" games just destroys your argument. The Sabres have won playoff series, the President's trophy, and division championships with Miller in net. He posted several outstanding performances in those efforts and was recognized with the Vezina trophy.

 

Your argument fails because you selectively pick a few games out of that body of work to support your sweeping assessment of Miller. Using your logic, I could point out the playoff series that the Sabres lost with Hasek in net (Washington, Dallas, and Pittsburgh), and place the blame on his shoulders and make the claim that Hasek was never a clutch goaltender for the Sabres.

 

We defend Miller because despite your narrow criteria, he has, in fact, posted excellent performances for the Sabres, which you prevent yourself from recognizing.

 

You also state several times that you are stating your opinion, which is fine. But then you state your definition of "clutch" as fact, which it is not. Continually stating your opinion as fact is not a way to carry on a productive conversation; it is, however, a way to carry on a LAMP crusade.

 

For me, like others, at this point I'm open to the debate that Ruff should play the hot goaltender. I have no interest in deconstructing Miller's accomplishments to have that debate though.

Posted

did I say there were shootouts during the playoffs? No, I said he performs well in a shootout. Calm down it's not that serious, so your use of all caps was wasted. Sorry. Also, wasn't there a shootout against the Habs.

 

Also if you read my previous posts you would have seen where I even admitted that I DO NOT think Enroth is ready to be our full time starter but he is an amazing goalie that has tons of potential and has already shown that he can play a solid 60 minutes. And right now he is player better than miller.

 

Sorry, I was confused by the fact that all of our post-response conversation up to this point have been directly related to Enroth's performance at the close of the season.

 

I stay calm most of the time...It's the insanity of this argument that has me spinning.

Posted

Look, we don't want to trade Miller. I'm not his biggest fan, but trading him is silly. In the playoffs last year, he shut Philly out twice in games we had no business winning.

 

I coach hockey (not that it makes me know more than anyone) and if you look at the goals they scored last night on us, Miller is not the only one at fault.

 

On goal #1 the defensive zone coverage was all messed up...Regehr was out trying to block the point shot, Kaleta was down low where Regehr should have been (they switched jobs), Roy was in the right place but covered no one. The rebound came out to the high slot, Roy or Boyes (or both) should have cleared the rebound. If they were in the right place they don't score.

 

On the 2nd goal, Leopold was at our blueline and under two man pressure he tried to pass it up to the center but it got tipped and went to a Philly player. In hindsight, he should have passed it D to D in that situation. This gave Philly a 3 on 1...we actually did a good job keeping the puck wide but the shot was a laser beam. Miller looked to play it well...I'm not sure how many goalies make that save.

 

On their 3rd goal Philly gained a 3 on 2. Weber thought is was a 2 on 2...he never saw the player to his right and could not recover. Almost the same shot as the goal before...a laser beam. Give a pro that much time and space and he should get a great oppotunity.

 

I like Ruff too, but skating the team 2 days before a game is not a good idea. Usually, two days later is when you feel the effects. They looked sluggish, and didn't play with confidence. Put the lines back the way they were when the season started (without Ennis of course). Play the 7th d man every few games to give guys a night off. Let the team develop. One third of the guys either didn' play on the team last year or came to the team late last year. They need time to gel.

Posted

No where is it stated he is better than Miller.

Merely that he can handle the job at the same rate as Miller (for less money the next 2 seasons mind you) and that Miller, right now, would bring in a juicy return in a trade that could actually significantly increase offensive production.

 

I would like to see a Miller trade not for the sake of trading him, but for the sake of bettering the team where it needs to be bettered, in the offensive ranks where offensive zone pressure and point producing results are sorely needed. Specifically that center position.

 

Miller would indeed make a juicy trade imaginable, and with Enroth performing back there, at such a young age and clearly the future in net for Buffalo, it's atleast something that can be considered.

 

So you would trade away your starter because the backup looks good in the games he's played? Really? The only good backup we've had in years? At the moment Miller would fetch much btw, his price is high and his played about average so far, would you trade your star for that? So you'd trade for a 1st line center? the only line thats producing consistently you'd trade to replace? If not good offensive 2nd liners? Then what do we do about being stacked already?

Posted

No one stated he can't play in big games.

I stated he can't play in "clutch" games where a season or tournament were on the line.

The results on this historically in his pro career speak for themselves, and no matter how you feel on the subject, the truth is the truth.

 

Oh and just to state, what you're saying is in your opinion do NOT pretend it's fact.

Posted

You made the statement that "expecting a HASEK type performance every night" as though that is what I had posted.

Not true at all, therefor, when the facts of Miller's professional performances in "clutch", must win games presented themselves to you, you immediately attempt to word play the situation to some type of advantage for what I can only assume is a win for your arguement.

However, it was and still is clearly defined, you can't argue against the historical facts I presented in those big game moments because they have already been played out. You could argue that it may change in the future given his overall performance as a netminder at the professional level. I would listen to the reasoning as to the why's.

 

But, I stand firm in my convictions on Ryan Miller, I am of the opinion this organization should use him to bring in a most needed stud center, either standalone or in a package deal. His performance with the Sabres not withstanding, his failures in the "Big Game" catagory duely noted and Enroth's emergence as not only the future, but quite capable of handling the current netminding duties successfully lead me to stand strong on my thoughts on this.

 

Wait....

 

You sure you don't mean Luongo?

Posted

Do you actually watch the games or just go by the final score? "Hmmm, the score says the Sabres lost, therefore I guess that means Miller can't perform in clutch games"

 

Just off the top of my head, The Eastern Conference finals against the Canes, Game 5 goes to OT Sabres Lose, Game 6 goes to OT (Sabres lose they are out) they win 2-1 in OT, and in Game 7, the Sabres lose with half of their defence called up from the press box or the AHL before the game.

 

In the Olympics, Team USA loses in the Gold medal game to the heavy home favorites 3-2 in OT, Miller keeps them in the game and forces them to go to OT against Team Canada

 

In the Winter Classic, they go to OT and a Shootout and lose 2-1 (both the Olympics and the WC Shootout, the winner is scored by Crosby)

 

Last years playoffs, he has 2 1-0 shutouts against the Flyers and was playing on a team that had struggled to beat a trio of mediocre NHL goaltenders in Bobrovsky, Leighton and Boucher. They go to OT in games 5 and 6 and then no one shows up for game 7.

 

The Olympics and Winter classic game (only included cause you think this is a "clutch" or "pressure" type game) I think show that Miller is actually a goaltender that performs well in clutch situations, rather then him not. Sure he didn't come up with a Hasek type "Herculian" effort and win the game singe handidly, but his performance was hardly the reason for the losses. Last years playoffs he was one of the reasons why they even had a chance to go to game 7 against a much better Flyers team. If you want to say that Miller doesn't play well in clutch sitautions, then the same can be said for Vanek, and Pommenville, and Roy, and Myers, and <insert any Sabres player Here>.

+1, infact I'd say he performs better under pressure.

Posted

So we trade Miller for a #1 center, and then we have Lindy overworking Enroth, and then :blink: woah, now he looks just like miller. Miller is in a funk right now, and I believe like Jerry that Enroth should get a few more starts now until Miller is out of his funk.

 

I am a team sport player, have played many team sports, and am a firm believer that when the team loses it is not because of 1 individual, but rather what the TEAM did or did not do. Watch the olympic goal again: Crosby is skating untouched through the low slot, next to the crease. The defenseman is responsible for him, and responsible for stopping him from taking any shot. the defenseman just let him keep skating by him. Does he get a free pass? by no means, but if the defenseman picks up his responsibility, the shot doesn't go off...

 

Winter Classic: Did you see the ONLY goal he gave up? He made two initial saves (one being a poke check), but again his defense let the opposing player crash the net to scoop up the poked out puck. He didn't let another goal in until (whadaya know) Sydney Crosby scores in the shootout.

 

I don't like how Miller doesn't just take the responsibility for losses, but at the same time, it is a team sport. How about that Montreal game? Or the Florida game? Both times he shut the door. And in the Philly series last year, those 1-0 shutouts (yes plural)? The man carries the team better than Luongo, among other goalies IMO. It just seems like you expect a Hasek type effort from him every night, and since he's been on a losing streak, you're just shy of calling for his head. Where's the acocuntability of the other 3 forward lines, or of the other 2 D pairings?

I happen to agree with much of this.

But my opinion will not change. I would love it, quite honestly, if management used Miller to better the team and it's overall chances of Cup success.

 

I'd like to see a real BALLSY move and stick Miller in a package or stand alone, whatever gets it done, to bring in a stud centerman.

You want Lord Stanley's Cup Pegula? Then call the ball and make history happen.

 

Just my opinion.

Posted

Pekka Rinne just re-upped in Nashville. 7 Years $7,000,000 per YEAR.

 

Just sayin'.

 

How many long term goalie deals work out, just thinking of Dipietro (capt. calamity), Luongo (harhar). I'm sure there are others but I should do some work so I can't check.

Posted

Oh and just to state, what you're saying is in your opinion do NOT pretend it's fact.

When the resulting outcome is there for all to see and the events have already unfolded as such, you can state it as factual.

 

In this case, it is within the context of Miller carrying this team through a "clutch game" performance.

You are wrong in your statement, my opinion is that they should utilize Enroth and trade Miller.

I am not of the opinion that Miller hasn't won "clutch games", that is just a fact that has materialized on it's own.

I did however, state that this may change, but back to my opinion, I doubt it will. I don't believe in gray areas, only that which has occured.

Posted

I happen to agree with much of this.

But my opinion will not change. I would love it, quite honestly, if management used Miller to better the team and it's overall chances of Cup success.

 

I'd like to see a real BALLSY move and stick Miller in a package or stand alone, whatever gets it done, to bring in a stud centerman.

You want Lord Stanley's Cup Pegula? Then call the ball and make history happen.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Name 3 stud centerman up for grabs, especially if the only thing you have to offer is a Goalie looking to rebound who's on $7 mill odd.

Posted

 

I'd like to see a real BALLSY move and stick Miller in a package or stand alone, whatever gets it done, to bring in a stud centerman.

You want Lord Stanley's Cup Pegula? Then call the ball and make history happen.

 

Just my opinion.

 

This will make us the 2009-2011 Flyers. I don't care if you go get Brad Richards. Enroth is not good enough (at this point) to carry even a center-stacked team to the cup. He has gotten away with some terrible performances. If he is the starter on a regular basis, that will not continue. Much growing to do, but I am confident that in 2 years we will have a good choice to make between miller and jhonas.

Posted

Name 3 stud centerman up for grabs, especially if the only thing you have to offer is a Goalie looking to rebound who's on $7 mill odd.

 

This is the big question. You want to trade away Miller for a stud centerman, but as someone else stated, our stud line is performing admirably, so we need a stud 2nd liner? I don't see the need for a trade right now, and I don't see us being able to give up enough without putting us on the losing end of a deal.

 

I don't think any trade you put together right now is going to be a win-win for anybody right now. And the teams with stars/studs worthy of trading for right now are pretty set with goaltenders

Posted

When the resulting outcome is there for all to see and the events have already unfolded as such, you can state it as factual.

 

In this case, it is within the context of Miller carrying this team through a "clutch game" performance.

You are wrong in your statement, my opinion is that they should utilize Enroth and trade Miller.

I am not of the opinion that Miller hasn't won "clutch games", that is just a fact that has materialized on it's own.

I did however, state that this may change, but back to my opinion, I doubt it will. I don't believe in gray areas, only that which has occured.

The Fact is, THE SABRES AS A TEAM, haven't won those "Clutch" games. Its your opinion saying that Milelr hasn't won those games. if you look at the FACTS, ie. more then just the win/loss, you would see that he has played good enough to win, or was the entire reason they were in most of those "clutch games"

Posted

So you would trade away your starter because the backup looks good in the games he's played? Really? The only good backup we've had in years? At the moment Miller would fetch much btw, his price is high and his played about average so far, would you trade your star for that? So you'd trade for a 1st line center? the only line thats producing consistently you'd trade to replace? If not good offensive 2nd liners? Then what do we do about being stacked already?

Herein lay the difference.

 

Well then, once again, you can't get around my thoughts on who should be the starter. I whole-heartedly believe Enroth should be the starter and Miller should be gone in a trade, or, the backup if you like.

I firmly believe Enroth is everybit as good a goalie as Miller and I also believe he will out perform Miller when it comes to those "clutch games" I speak of.

 

I especially like the talent analysis in this write up on him......

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/jhonas_enroth

 

He does have the ability to perform in big games, just as Miller does, but I believe Enroth succeeds where Miller has failed to date......

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