HopefulFuture Posted October 31, 2011 Report Posted October 31, 2011 I typically try to stay away from making trade proposals. That said, if we were to trade for a center, if I had to guess, that player would come from a Western team. Honestly, there is a list of players I don't want to see leave, but more so because of fan-dom rather than non-biased hockey eye filters... I hear ya dtM, I was the same way as well. I still have a soft spot for a few players, but over the years the obsession to see a Cup winner in Buffalo has dwindled that side of me away. As for potential trade talk, I'll go with the OP's intent, the position itself, although I can be a bit guilty from time to time of getting wide-eyed at certain players and the hopes they end up playing here and playing successfully.
Matty Ice Posted October 31, 2011 Report Posted October 31, 2011 But.. but... but.... how can we debate if you are going to agree? :P It really suprises me how effective Boston was with a bunch of 2nd tier centers. makes me wonder how different last season would have turned out if Darcy would've been succesful in signing Koivu and Matt cullen as FA's. Haha, sorry bro. Although effective with 2nd tier centers, Tim Thomas was the first, second, and third reason why they won the cup. Hopefully Miller can regain his form and do the same for us.
HopefulFuture Posted October 31, 2011 Report Posted October 31, 2011 BuffNewsVogl Sabres shake up top lines: Vanek-Leino-Pominville, Adam-Roy-Stafford. Still have Gerbe-Gaustad-Kaleta & McCormick-Ellis-Boyes. Here we go again.......
RazielSabre Posted October 31, 2011 Report Posted October 31, 2011 Leino better start coming around soon!! He's pissing me off :wallbash: I still think he needs more time than 10 games, and his not the sole focus of our problems. How about Myers, Ennis, Boyes? How about the fact we're still 6-4-0 who's main problem seems to be losing regularly at home.
BuffaloSoldier2010 Posted October 31, 2011 Report Posted October 31, 2011 I honestly believe that leino's ablility to pass and hold the puck can make vanek and pommer perform even better than they are right now. Adam has shown he can play wing as well. Obviously it'll take a few games to really see what we have, but i like these lines the best out of anything I've seen on paper so far this year.
RazielSabre Posted October 31, 2011 Report Posted October 31, 2011 I honestly believe that leino's ablility to pass and hold the puck can make vanek and pommer perform even better than they are right now. Adam has shown he can play wing as well. Obviously it'll take a few games to really see what we have, but i like these lines the best out of anything I've seen on paper so far this year. Maybe Vanek might make the NHL's 3 stars if he can perform better...
SabresMojo Posted October 31, 2011 Report Posted October 31, 2011 BuffNewsVogl Sabres shake up top lines: Vanek-Leino-Pominville, Adam-Roy-Stafford. Still have Gerbe-Gaustad-Kaleta & McCormick-Ellis-Boyes. Here we go again....... I honestly believe that leino's ablility to pass and hold the puck can make vanek and pommer perform even better than they are right now. Adam has shown he can play wing as well. Obviously it'll take a few games to really see what we have, but i like these lines the best out of anything I've seen on paper so far this year. I agree with BS2010's post in response to the line change. It seems that if Leino is with top guys (as in Philly) he'll strive! Lets see what happens when we play Philly.
spndnchz Posted October 31, 2011 Report Posted October 31, 2011 I honestly believe that leino's ablility to pass and hold the puck can make vanek and pommer perform even better than they are right now. Adam has shown he can play wing as well. Obviously it'll take a few games to really see what we have, but i like these lines the best out of anything I've seen on paper so far this year. This I gotta see. Haven't seen it yet. He may have been good in Philly, but he wasn't the one bringing the puck over the blue line.
nfreeman Posted October 31, 2011 Report Posted October 31, 2011 I don't agree with the bolded part. Boston had darned good center depth. What they lacked was a star center. Good call. I tend to agree with the OP, center depth and skill level is a very real issue and, as such, should be addressed. Should have been in addressed in the off season to be quite frank. and who should we have gotten to address this during the offseason? The only center worth a lick was Richards (not talking possible trades, I'm talking just FAs). He is grossly overpaid IMHO, we were not bringing back the tin man, so who else was there to strengthen up our center position during the offseason? There's still 72 games to be played and still 3+ months until the trade deadline...I'm sure there will be some sort of movement with this roster between now and then. I would have garnered the services of Brad Richards. You may think him over paid, but if you look at what this team has (an over abundance of scoring wingers) and what this team needs (a superstar puck dishing pivot man), Brad Richards is just what the doctor would have ordered in my humble opinion. But it's neither here nor there, the move wasn't made, nor any move for that matter. I was merely curious as to what the Sabres were or still are willing to give up to address the need. Brad Richards wasn't coming to Buffalo, it's why they backed out of attempting to land him, and focused on Leino. Acquiring a top center is in their plans. There aren't many of them and they don't come available very often. These things take time, even when money is no object. It quixckly became apparant that Rchards agent was only leveraging other offers to get the best deal from the Rangers. the point I was making is that there was only 1 good star center available. Just 1. and he wasn't going anywhere that wasn't the Rangers. I know what you're trying to say, but realistically speaking, there was no one on the market, and no one that any team was willing to give away yet (aside from Philly making room to sign Bryz). Most teams will wait to see how the first quarter or so of the season goes before they start trading pieces. Unless we offered something outlandish, there was no way were prying away a good center prior to the season. the current 11th place rangers. yes, yes yes ... i know they've played less than 10 games this season. so have the capitals. brad richards and his agent wanted money--not a stanley cup contender. they got what they wanted. they can have the big money. i would take a potential shot at lord stanley's glory over a fatter pay check any day, but that's just me. I agree with the posters above who have said that Richards was only going to the Rangers. It wasn't about money, though. Richards wanted to be a Ranger, full stop. His agent more or less stated publicly that the Rangers were going to have the ability to match any offer. As long as the Rangers were willing to match whatever the Sabres or Toronto or LA wanted to pay, the Rangers would get him. That made it impossible for the Sabres to get him -- and makes it silly to criticize the Sabres for not getting him. The guy I wonder about is Mike Richards. I get the feeling that Philly wanted to trade him to the WC, but I wonder if a strong trade offer would've landed him. LA gave up Wayne Simmonds (age 23, 4th NHL season, 14 goals/30 pts last year, 16 goals/40 pts previous year), Brayden Schenn (top-ranked prospect in entire NHL) and a 2nd-rounder. I'd guess the Sabres would've had to have given up Stafford, Kassian and a first-rounder to make it worth Philly's while. I would've given that much up for Richards. I wonder whether Darcy took a shot at him.
X. Benedict Posted October 31, 2011 Report Posted October 31, 2011 Philly got very good value for Richards. But the reasons for moving him are still mysterious. I think LA overpaid myself. Brayden Schenn is a generational talent IMO.
LGR4GM Posted October 31, 2011 Report Posted October 31, 2011 Ooooo..... I can't wait for the Eklund trade rumor posts to start. :wallbash: Ecklund is reporting the sabres are trading Leino to SJ for Pavelski.... stay tuned more to come... In all seriousness we don't need a "star" center we need a power center. We need a jordan staal / martin hanzal TYPE of player. Someone who can get 50 pts (Hanzal could around Pommers/Van) but is physically big and strong enough to clear out space and run defenders over aka they get 100+ hits. We don't need another weak, undersized center who has potential... Richards is a playmaker but we need a tank with playmaking skills. IMHO this team is not TOUGH enough.
BuffaloSoldier2010 Posted October 31, 2011 Report Posted October 31, 2011 Ecklund is reporting the sabres are trading Leino to SJ for Pavelski.... stay tuned more to come... In all seriousness we don't need a "star" center we need a power center. We need a jordan staal / martin hanzal TYPE of player. Someone who can get 50 pts (Hanzal could around Pommers/Van) but is physically big and strong enough to clear out space and run defenders over. We don't need another weak, undersized center who has potential... Richards is a playmaker but we need a tank with playmaking skills. IMHO this team is not TOUGH enough. Adam is starting to look like that player. He's a big boy with a nice set of hands. :blush: But in all seriousness, I'd like to see what Adam looks like in 3-4 years in terms of his game. If he can really spark that second line then our need for that big man in the middle will be filled on its on barring any serious injury. As for the bolded portion, you're essentially describing Joe Thorton. Jumbo Joe ain't goin nowhere. Any player with size that warrants them being called a "tank" along with playmaking talent is hard to find in this league. I agree the need is there, but i think it's well on its way to being filled.
LGR4GM Posted October 31, 2011 Report Posted October 31, 2011 Adam is starting to look like that player. He's a big boy with a nice set of hands. :blush: But in all seriousness, I'd like to see what Adam looks like in 3-4 years in terms of his game. If he can really spark that second line then our need for that big man in the middle will be filled on its on barring any serious injury. As for the bolded portion, you're essentially describing Joe Thorton. Jumbo Joe ain't goin nowhere. Any player with size that warrants them being called a "tank" along with playmaking talent is hard to find in this league. I agree the need is there, but i think it's well on its way to being filled. I want tougher than Thorton. The size is right but tougher. I am thinking more of a Jordan Staal type. Staal isnt a great playmaker but he has offensive skills and he is a big guy who works hard and will drive straight to the net. Guys who fit this category: Backes, Brian Boyle, Getzlaf, Hanzal, Patrik Berglund, and lw Tuomo Ruutu are the type of player I am thinking of. Someone with "true grit". I want a player who gives Brad Boyes the room to succeed which is what his 4th line-mates are doing. I want a guy who can get net position and draw defenders to him so Ennis can do his thing. I want a guy who leads by example and works hard. Thats what this team needs and continues to need. Summing it all up: We need a Center, 6'2" or taller, over 210lbs, who averages more than 120 hits a season, and also can racked up 50-60pts. Leino is not that and Roy is not that. Luke Adam I think has the potential to be that but I agree it is 2-4 years to make him into that player. It is for this very reason I was against drafting Armia and wanted McNiell or even better to trade up for Couturier. I am excited for Catenacci but again he is a speedy type of player not the dump truck who is leveling people here, there, and everywhere while dropping a 50-60pt season. We are literally not "STRONG" enough at center.
waldo Posted November 1, 2011 Report Posted November 1, 2011 I want tougher than Thorton. The size is right but tougher. I am thinking more of a Jordan Staal type. Staal isnt a great playmaker but he has offensive skills and he is a big guy who works hard and will drive straight to the net. Guys who fit this category: Backes, Brian Boyle, Getzlaf, Hanzal, Patrik Berglund, and lw Tuomo Ruutu are the type of player I am thinking of. Someone with "true grit". I want a player who gives Brad Boyes the room to succeed which is what his 4th line-mates are doing. I want a guy who can get net position and draw defenders to him so Ennis can do his thing. I want a guy who leads by example and works hard. Thats what this team needs and continues to need. Summing it all up: We need a Center, 6'2" or taller, over 210lbs, who averages more than 120 hits a season, and also can racked up 50-60pts. Leino is not that and Roy is not that. Luke Adam I think has the potential to be that but I agree it is 2-4 years to make him into that player. It is for this very reason I was against drafting Armia and wanted McNiell or even better to trade up for Couturier. I am excited for Catenacci but again he is a speedy type of player not the dump truck who is leveling people here, there, and everywhere while dropping a 50-60pt season. We are literally not "STRONG" enough at center. good post...it should be noted that five- six of the Sabres top 12 forwards are gnats, to say they are not strong enough up the middle is true buit i see it as more of a an across the board problem than a just the midddle problem.i am not sure that one Staal fixes it. They have to trade some gnats and get more physical or wait for the nhl hierachy to finnish turning it into the girls game.
Weave Posted November 1, 2011 Report Posted November 1, 2011 good post...it should be noted that six of the Sabres top 12 forwards are gnats, to say they are not strong enough is an understatement. Huh? Only Roy Ennis Kaleta and Gerbe are listed by FoxSports to be under 6' tall. We have too many *very* small forwards IMO but still, overall this is the biggest this team has been in years.
darksabre Posted November 1, 2011 Report Posted November 1, 2011 good post...it should be noted that six of the Sabres top 12 forwards are gnats, to say they are not strong enough is an understatement. You're really stretching with 6 of 12 being a convincing number. Boston's roster doesn't look much different from ours when it comes to forward size, and yet most equate them with physical play. Gerbe is also proof that you don't have to be 6 foot 200+ to be a physical forward.
waldo Posted November 1, 2011 Report Posted November 1, 2011 Huh? Only Roy Ennis Kaleta and Gerbe are listed by FoxSports to be under 6' tall. We have too many *very* small forwards IMO but still, overall this is the biggest this team has been in years. There is more to gnatdom than mere size. Some players are automatically granted gnat status because of their size,(Ennis and the little ball of smiling teeth fall into this catagory) while a second sub species of gnats , although slightly larger, earns its gnat status , because of their style of play. They are what we call contact adversive, especially in the post season. The Sabres have 5-6 guys who fall into the two aformentioned catagories . :D The point without dancing around it, is there are number of players that are not capable of contributing in a long post season run because they do not play well in physical games with minimal space..The problem is not only an up the middle problem. There are other pieces missing
Weave Posted November 1, 2011 Report Posted November 1, 2011 There is more to gnatdom than mere size. Some players are automatically granted gnat status because of their size,(Ennis and the little ball of smiling teeth fall into this catagory) while a second sub species of gnats , although slightly larger, earns its gnat status , because of their style of play. They are what we call contact adversive, especially in the post season. The Sabres have 5-6 guys who fall into the two aformentioned catagories . :D The point without dancing around it, is there are number of players that are not capable of contributing in a long post season run because they do not play well in physical games with minimal space..The problem is not only an up the middle problem. There are other pieces missing Fair enough. I think most would catagorize gnat as being small of stature. If you want to add playing small for the purposes of this discussion then I'll agree with your number. Would've been easier all around if you just said it that way in the beginning. :blush:
nfreeman Posted November 1, 2011 Report Posted November 1, 2011 Philly got very good value for Richards. But the reasons for moving him are still mysterious. I think LA overpaid myself. Brayden Schenn is a generational talent IMO. Really? As in a Hart trophy-type-guy? So Philly's got the next Ovechkin? That's just great. Ecklund is reporting the sabres are trading Leino to SJ for Pavelski.... stay tuned more to come... In all seriousness we don't need a "star" center we need a power center. We need a jordan staal / martin hanzal TYPE of player. Someone who can get 50 pts (Hanzal could around Pommers/Van) but is physically big and strong enough to clear out space and run defenders over aka they get 100+ hits. We don't need another weak, undersized center who has potential... Richards is a playmaker but we need a tank with playmaking skills. IMHO this team is not TOUGH enough. Do you still think Pittsburgh is going to trade Staal?
waldo Posted November 1, 2011 Report Posted November 1, 2011 Fair enough. I think most would catagorize gnat as being small of stature. If you want to add playing small for the purposes of this discussion then I'll agree with your number. Would've been easier all around if you just said it that way in the beginning. :blush: I knew we would agree..I said it with some rhetorical flourish.Not my best effort. A mistake to do that here. As it relates to the guys who play small, it really has more to do with what happens to their games after they take a major hit or a consistent pounding.It is not all about their ability to dish it out, some very good players do not hand out punishment. It amazes me to watch guys like Saint Martin and their survival strategies.You win with a cadre of guys who can pull that physicality up into the Q when necessary.
shrader Posted November 1, 2011 Report Posted November 1, 2011 Philly got very good value for Richards. But the reasons for moving him are still mysterious. I think LA overpaid myself. Brayden Schenn is a generational talent IMO. I thought the Richards stuff became pretty well documented over the course of the summer. All that party stuff leaked out for a reason.
RazielSabre Posted November 1, 2011 Report Posted November 1, 2011 I'm surprised no one has made a suggestion of going after Turris thinking about it.
LastPommerFan Posted November 1, 2011 Report Posted November 1, 2011 If we are talking about point generation, I would like to consider the possibility that with our system, the quality of the center is not a significant factor. I give you the Pommer-Adam-Vanek Line as exhibit A. Adam is developing nicely, but he is not in the realm of the quality of center we a talking about needing. Yet his line is performing beyond expectations because the wingers are playing well. Now, if we are talking defensive hockey, there may be a case to add a center, but i think balancing the defense more by bringing Weber in for MAG would be a better step. Despite our record this is a top 10 scoring team. We need to get better in our own end and the neutral zone when the other team has possession. And we need to be better in the last 5 minutes. I will grant that we just didn't show up in Tampa. Let's look at the other three losses: Carolina (3-2): our PP went -2 for 6 for a total differential of -3 on special teams. WE now have a top10 PP and the #2 PK in the league, I believe these issues have been resolved for the time being. Tampa (4-3): We came out flying, but completely lost focus. No killer instinct. 4 guys standing around watching Vinny do fancy things in the slot and the game just derailed after that. Florida (3-2): Lead with 5 minutes left to play, ready for a 5 min power play and 1 quasi-undisciplined and 1 totally undisciplined play later we blow the lead. I love the idea from Stafford, but don't just knock him down, taking him to the boards and bully him around for a while. Gerbe just needs to learn how to react in the situation. It was a bad call, but in that game situation he needs to skate directly to the box. So it's discipline. Discipline on special teams, Discipline on the system, and discipline with the lead late. The Sabres have a very good offense (2.9 GF per game), and the best defense/goaltending combo in the Eastern Conference (2.2 GA per game). I'm not panicky yet, and I don't think we need any personnel changes to get over the hump and go on a bit of a tear (with the exception of balancing the D with Weber in place of MAG)
waldo Posted November 1, 2011 Report Posted November 1, 2011 If we are talking about point generation, I would like to consider the possibility that with our system, the quality of the center is not a significant factor. I give you the Pommer-Adam-Vanek Line as exhibit A. Adam is developing nicely, but he is not in the realm of the quality of center we a talking about needing. Yet his line is performing beyond expectations because the wingers are playing well. Now, if we are talking defensive hockey, there may be a case to add a center, but i think balancing the defense more by bringing Weber in for MAG would be a better step. Despite our record this is a top 10 scoring team. We need to get better in our own end and the neutral zone when the other team has possession. And we need to be better in the last 5 minutes. I will grant that we just didn't show up in Tampa. Let's look at the other three losses: Carolina (3-2): our PP went -2 for 6 for a total differential of -3 on special teams. WE now have a top10 PP and the #2 PK in the league, I believe these issues have been resolved for the time being. Tampa (4-3): We came out flying, but completely lost focus. No killer instinct. 4 guys standing around watching Vinny do fancy things in the slot and the game just derailed after that. Florida (3-2): Lead with 5 minutes left to play, ready for a 5 min power play and 1 quasi-undisciplined and 1 totally undisciplined play later we blow the lead. I love the idea from Stafford, but don't just knock him down, taking him to the boards and bully him around for a while. Gerbe just needs to learn how to react in the situation. It was a bad call, but in that game situation he needs to skate directly to the box. So it's discipline. Discipline on special teams, Discipline on the system, and discipline with the lead late. The Sabres have a very good offense (2.9 GF per game), and the best defense/goaltending combo in the Eastern Conference (2.2 GA per game). I'm not panicky yet, and I don't think we need any personnel changes to get over the hump and go on a bit of a tear (with the exception of balancing the D with Weber in place of MAG) Nice post.. all good points
X. Benedict Posted November 1, 2011 Report Posted November 1, 2011 Really? As in a Hart trophy-type-guy? So Philly's got the next Ovechkin? That's just great. Put it this way. Don Luce probably hasn't been able to walk to the chalkboard since this trade went down.
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