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Enroth is starting to remind me a little of another Sabres goalie...


matter2003

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Posted

So your pudding proof consists of Miller being scored on by the best player in hockey in an extremely hostile arena with the pride of an entire nation at stake, having trouble with the #2 player in Playoff goals since the lockout, and his inability to handle the puck in an outdoor game when it was snowing? Don't you think that is a pretty ridiculous standard?

No, I don't believe my standard to be ridiculous. I expect my all star goalie to step up and perform in all star manner, that includes the ability to pull out big games.

There is no glory in second place, Miller has the ability, but to date, has been unable to pull out the must win sceniario's.

How I relate this to Enroth comes back to my curiousity on whether or not Enroth's ability will vary and he can achieve this.

Only time will tell, but I'd sure like to see him go through a playoff series or a big game environment to see if he does have it.

Couldn't hurt given past results with Miller.

Posted

In point of fact, Miller did not perform to a Gold Medal Victory, he did however, allow a 5 hole goal that cost us the Gold.

You cannot get around the end result, no matter how one feels about the overall performance.

 

Just an observation on him is all, not a criticism, more of a critique, he has the ability to overcome this, the question to me is whether or not he ever will and if Enroth has a calmer approach is he the one that can......

 

 

You are an idiot, the US had no business even being in a Medal Game let alone getting Canada into OT. The winter classic??? That is laughable as well. Miller is one of the top three big game goaltenders in the league and almost always shows up. Has he had a playoffs where he pulle a Hasek and carried a team all the way to the finals no, but he is capable of that and tried his best in the first round last year... sadly, his team let him down.

Posted

I hope he puts a little pressure on Miller, keeps him sharp. If Miller knows there is finally someone to threaten his position he might start sharpening up, which considering I'm not so sure we've seen the Miller of two seasons ago yet might be a good thing.

 

I'm not sure I've seen anything in Miller that leads me to believe he needs to be threatened to perform well.

He strikes me as one of the most self-motivated athletes the team has seen in ages.

 

As to his big game performances, there is a big difference between not winning and not performing well.

There are 39 other players out there.

 

If your standards are Dom, or Patrick Roy, or Bernie Parent, Miller falls short.

If they are Roberto Luongo, Carey Price, Henrik Lundqvist, and other noted cup-less goalies, he stacks up very well.

And I would take him over the Antti Niemis or Chris Osgoods every time.

Posted

No, I don't believe my standard to be ridiculous. I expect my all star goalie to step up and perform in all star manner, that includes the ability to pull out big games.

There is no glory in second place, Miller has the ability, but to date, has been unable to pull out the must win sceniario's.

How I relate this to Enroth comes back to my curiousity on whether or not Enroth's ability will vary and he can achieve this.

Only time will tell, but I'd sure like to see him go through a playoff series or a big game environment to see if he does have it.

Couldn't hurt given past results with Miller.

 

Fair enough, but I believe your standard to be too selective. The number of big games he has stolen far outweighs the times he has been a problem. Game 7 in the SCF I want him over just about any active goalie in the league (Thomas might beat him out).

Posted

I almost wish we had a horrible back up goaltender again because I am sick of every time enroth plays well people are calling for millers head or making up dumb arguments as to why he is not elite. Ask every single player in the NHL if Ryan Miller is an elite goaltender and I would bet every single one of them say yes.

Posted

You are an idiot, the US had no business even being in a Medal Game let alone getting Canada into OT. The winter classic??? That is laughable as well. Miller is one of the top three big game goaltenders in the league and almost always shows up. Has he had a playoffs where he pulle a Hasek and carried a team all the way to the finals no, but he is capable of that and tried his best in the first round last year... sadly, his team let him down.

 

Agreed!

Posted

You are an idiot, the US had no business even being in a Medal Game let alone getting Canada into OT. The winter classic??? That is laughable as well. Miller is one of the top three big game goaltenders in the league and almost always shows up. Has he had a playoffs where he pulle a Hasek and carried a team all the way to the finals no, but he is capable of that and tried his best in the first round last year... sadly, his team let him down.

Your comment divulges who is the idiot here.

Personal attacks won't change my opinion of Miller's past record, nor would I describe him as a sub par or below elite status goalie.

 

I respect your views on him and the situation in net for both team USA and the Sabres when it comes to Miller, a little reciprocation on varying opinoins would be most welcomed.

Posted

Fair enough, but I believe your standard to be too selective. The number of big games he has stolen far outweighs the times he has been a problem. Game 7 in the SCF I want him over just about any active goalie in the league (Thomas might beat him out).

Even if Enroth provides some doubt if he were to have proven big game success?

That's where my thoughts on this lay. Not to blame Miller at all, but to wonder out loud if Enroth's demeanor has the nack, or ability to achieve success where, to date, Miller has not.

 

Could be a win/win for us fans.

Posted

Your comment divulges who is the idiot here.

Personal attacks won't change my opinion of Miller's past record, nor would I describe him as a sub par or below elite status goalie.

 

I respect your views on him and the situation in net for both team USA and the Sabres when it comes to Miller, a little reciprocation on varying opinoins would be most welcomed.

 

 

Your opinion is idiotic?? I am sure you are not actually an idiot because you compose your thoughts quite well. I disagree with everything you have said and barring a giant collapse in millers play will always disagree with you. Ill ask you two questions would you rather have tim thomas(as in a trade straight up)? and question 2 Would you rather have tim thomas two years ago? There is an enormous difference between having an amazing run and consistenly being an amazing goalie... while thomas is still excellent but he has disappeared for stretches including pretty much a whole season.

Posted

Even if Enroth provides some doubt if he were to have proven big game success?

That's where my thoughts on this lay. Not to blame Miller at all, but to wonder out loud if Enroth's demeanor has the nack, or ability to achieve success where, to date, Miller has not.

 

Could be a win/win for us fans.

 

 

If you are only asking about Enroths ability to play in big games then so be it... but you dogged and questioned miller while doing it. I love enroths play it is exciting but i have doubts as to his ability to do this in a playoff game it is a whole different ball game.

Posted

If you are only asking about Enroths ability to play in big games then so be it... but you dogged and questioned miller while doing it. I love enroths play it is exciting but i have doubts as to his ability to do this in a playoff game it is a whole different ball game.

Stating factually that to date, Ryan Miller has been unable to close a big game successfully is not dogging or questioning Miller, it's straight out saying that he has not shown the ability to do so as of this date. I fail to see how stating fact is anything like you surmize, I have repeatedly stated Miller is a very good goaltender, but my thoughts digress back to the OP and I view Enroth as more of Hasek type goaltender as well. Not only in some of his style of play, but his mental game also.

 

As for Tim Thomas over Miller, I'd take Thomas everyday of the week and twice on Sundays for the simple fact that his has, in point of fact, acheived success in Big Games.

I'm not a fan of individual players success or failure rates, but of the overall success of the team.

If, by questioning whether or not Enroth has the ability to acheive success where Miller has failed angers some fans, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

Posted

Stating factually that to date, Ryan Miller has been unable to close a big game successfully is not dogging or questioning Miller, it's straight out saying that he has not shown the ability to do so as of this date. I fail to see how stating fact is anything like you surmize, I have repeatedly stated Miller is a very good goaltender, but my thoughts digress back to the OP and I view Enroth as more of Hasek type goaltender as well. Not only in some of his style of play, but his mental game also.

 

As for Tim Thomas over Miller, I'd take Thomas everyday of the week and twice on Sundays for the simple fact that his has, in point of fact, acheived success in Big Games.

I'm not a fan of individual players success or failure rates, but of the overall success of the team.

If, by questioning whether or not Enroth has the ability to acheive success where Miller has failed angers some fans, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

 

Apples to Oranges. A lot of Timmie's play has come because of a pretty stout defense in front of him. The physicality (notorious) of Boston's D gives Thomas an edge. All he has to do is what he's asked, and that's give his team a chance. No one runs Thomas without paying a price, whereas people have taken liberty's with Miller in the past.

 

I'm not trying to take anything away from Thomas, because he is without a doubt an amazing goalie, but with a great D comes confidence, and with confidence comes a groove, and with that comes saves...and the wins.

 

Enroth has a swagger, or chip on his shoulder that he carries, and it shows. he has a very visible difference from Miller, and it is complimentary. I think he's got a ton of potential, and I think he's the future after Miller. Miller is still a great goalie, and I think a lot of the "big game choker" stuff is bogus...He did carry the team down most of the stretch last year, and in years past, and even in last years playoffs. If the team in front of him showed up to play in just 1 more game, 10 more minutes of play even, we win the series...not his fault if you ask me.

Posted

Stating factually that to date, Ryan Miller has been unable to close a big game successfully is not dogging or questioning Miller, it's straight out saying that he has not shown the ability to do so as of this date. I fail to see how stating fact is anything like you surmize, I have repeatedly stated Miller is a very good goaltender, but my thoughts digress back to the OP and I view Enroth as more of Hasek type goaltender as well. Not only in some of his style of play, but his mental game also.

 

As for Tim Thomas over Miller, I'd take Thomas everyday of the week and twice on Sundays for the simple fact that his has, in point of fact, acheived success in Big Games.

I'm not a fan of individual players success or failure rates, but of the overall success of the team.

If, by questioning whether or not Enroth has the ability to acheive success where Miller has failed angers some fans, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

 

 

 

Well Thomas was on that US team weird how the best hockey minds in the country didnt agree with your point of view on millers big game clutchness. They obviously should have known to start Thomas in that gold medal game?? I am confused to what you think a big game is???? What about two playoff shutouts in a seven game series??? That is performing in big games! How do you know anything about Enroth or Haseks mental approach to the game???

Posted

I'm sure it was, and deservedly so, he was the tournament MVP and earned that title.

As I stated, it doesn't change the end result, the Crosby goal was a 1 vs 1 scenairio, if Miller stops him, the game continues with a chance to win the Gold for America, he did not, hence my critique of that specific situation.

 

Getting back on subject with Enroth, I really like how calm he is, I am hoping to see if he can rise to the task and complete where Miller has not is all.I don't want to get into the Enroth is better than Miller debate, I am merely very curious as to whether Enroth can finish the job as where Miller seemingly (by my opinion only in any event) not been able to is all.

 

Talk about coming up big when the pressure is on. People in glass houses.........................

Posted

Stating factually that to date, Ryan Miller has been unable to close a big game successfully is not dogging or questioning Miller, it's straight out saying that he has not shown the ability to do so as of this date. I fail to see how stating fact is anything like you surmize, I have repeatedly stated Miller is a very good goaltender, but my thoughts digress back to the OP and I view Enroth as more of Hasek type goaltender as well. Not only in some of his style of play, but his mental game also.

 

As for Tim Thomas over Miller, I'd take Thomas everyday of the week and twice on Sundays for the simple fact that his has, in point of fact, acheived success in Big Games.

I'm not a fan of individual players success or failure rates, but of the overall success of the team.

If, by questioning whether or not Enroth has the ability to acheive success where Miller has failed angers some fans, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

 

I disagree with stating "Miller has not shown to be a big game goalie" as being FACT. Starting in college:

 


  •  
  • At MSU he won 2 CCHA championships as a starter and his NCAA Frozen four losses were both a result of the Spartans failing to score a single goal against Colorado College and North Dakota. Can blame the goalie for letting in one goal (+empty netter) and failing to win.
  • At Rochester in 03-04 he put up 2 shutouts and a god-like .934 sv% in the calder cup playoffs.
  • In Buffalo he's taken the team to 2 Eastern conference finals. One he lost because he literally had no defensemen left in front of him, and the other because the entire team vanished in front of him (Hecht and Afinagenov we the sabres leading scorers for the series)
  • In the 2010 playoff loss to the bruins, he still managed a spectacular .926 sv%
  • In the olympics he got scored on 1 on 1 with Crosby. Take any goalie ever, in his prime, and Crosby scores that goal 9 out of 10 times.

 

I agree that the Sabres have had a problem at crunch time, that problem has not been Ryan Miller. But if Jhonas is even better...that would be awesome.

Posted

In point of fact, Miller did not perform to a Gold Medal Victory, he did however, allow a 5 hole goal that cost us the Gold.

You cannot get around the end result, no matter how one feels about the overall performance.

 

Just an observation on him is all, not a criticism, more of a critique, he has the ability to overcome this, the question to me is whether or not he ever will and if Enroth has a calmer approach is he the one that can......

You can argue that each game Enroth appeared in down the stretch last year was big because each had direct implications on making the playoffs. He played great hockey. Of course so did the team in front of him.

As for Miller on Crosby, first time I saw it I thought it was a soft goal too but watching it again, Crosby's decision to let it go right away was just sneaky-good and proof, for me at least, that he is the best player in the world. No shame in allowing that goal.

Posted

You can argue that each game Enroth appeared in down the stretch last year was big because each had direct implications on making the playoffs. He played great hockey. Of course so did the team in front of him.

As for Miller on Crosby, first time I saw it I thought it was a soft goal too but watching it again, Crosby's decision to let it go right away was just sneaky-good and proof, for me at least, that he is the best player in the world. No shame in allowing that goal.

I will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever watch that goal again for as long as I live.

Posted

Stating factually that to date, Ryan Miller has been unable to close a big game successfully is not dogging or questioning Miller, it's straight out saying that he has not shown the ability to do so as of this date. I fail to see how stating fact is anything like you surmize, I have repeatedly stated Miller is a very good goaltender, but my thoughts digress back to the OP and I view Enroth as more of Hasek type goaltender as well. Not only in some of his style of play, but his mental game also.

 

As for Tim Thomas over Miller, I'd take Thomas everyday of the week and twice on Sundays for the simple fact that his has, in point of fact, acheived success in Big Games.

I'm not a fan of individual players success or failure rates, but of the overall success of the team.

If, by questioning whether or not Enroth has the ability to acheive success where Miller has failed angers some fans, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

 

What is your definition of a "big game"? By your definition, it would appear that any goalie who has never won a Gold medal or the Stanley Cup is "unable to close a big game." If Miller is able to win a game without a lot of offense or even defense support in the playoffs (like, as I recall, at least 2 or 3 games in the Philly series when it didn't seem that the Sabres could even get out of their own zone, much less across center ice), is that closing a "big game?" If the entire team is absolutely sucking in a regular season game(ala the Montreal game a few days ago) and Miller stands on his head, is that a "big game?" And if Miller stands on his head on sudden death Olympic games that were pretty tight scoring affairs and "closes" them so that eventually the team finds itself playing for Gold, are those big games?

 

I am not saying Miller can't improve or that he sometimes lets in some softies. I need him to stop that break away against Tampa a few days ago. I need him to be a bit more sound against some of the goals he has let in this season. I don't think he is at the level he was two years ago when he won the Vezina and I need him to be that goalie again (yes, it is unfair of me to think that the sanctity of marriage is to blame, but maybe that has thrown him off a bit-- don't tell my wife I said that). But the season is still very young.

 

I think your characterization of Miller is overly simplistic. Looking over his entire career, I think he has more than proven himself and has, in fact, closed "big games." And if you were to take even a confidential poll of his teammates and the coaches, they would probably tell you to a man that having him back there in "big games" is why they feel confident that they can pinch the way they do sometimes. I am not sure they feel that way about Enroth... yet, but they do seem to be getting closer to having that kind of confidence in him. Bottom line is, I like my really like my chances with Miller and, in a chess game, I choose him over Enroth more times than not because he gives the team a better chance. He has more than earned that kind of confidence in the big games he has won. Just my opinion (what really matters is Lindy's opinion and those of the team, but I am guessing they would tell us the same thing).

Posted

I'll take them one at a time, but all in this post.

 

My definition of a big game would be those type of environments that are on high display or of such an importance to have adverse effect on the overall objective of a season, hence my high profile example of the Winter Classic combined with game 7 of the Philly series as well as the Gold Medal game.

That pretty much sums up high pressure situations to me.

And I do agree with you that my estimation on Miller's play in these situations is over simplistic, but then again, the KISS solution to most games seems to work. Alas, I cannot desuade myself from the opinion I have formulated about his game play during key moments, the individual outcomes of those events speak for themselves to me.

 

To James, you are correct in that Crosby made a fantastic decision, but I'll stick to my opinion that Miller is better than Crosby, he has shown flashes of brilliance for long stretches and short ones, further leaving me baffled by his lackluster performances during must wins or key moments.

It ultimately leads me to the opinion I have on his big game performance issue, I think he is better than those moments but for some reason un-be-known to me in any event, he fails in those key moments. But your point is also a good and valid one.

I would still like to see Enroth over Miller in the playoffs, just to see how he would react in those pressure situations, like I said, I don't believe it could hurt any given Miller's track record in those situations.

 

To LastPommersFan,

I do agree that it's a team effort, I have stated over and over again I do not like to emphasize the individual effort, but, in the case of these key moments that are either on high display or in must win situations, a leader must step up, and since Miller has chosen to shoulder the burden of leadership on this team I think it very fair to critique his performance above all others given the impact his position has on a given game and the subsequent potential outcome, point blank, he failed to perform in those key moments.

And on a side note, I don't give Miller much of any credit during the 2 ECF runs, our teams were high energy, run and gun teams that put on an immense amount of offensive zone pressure. Still, we didn't reach the finals each of those 2 seasons, the team that scored more goals than us in a series did.

 

And lastely, grinreaper,

I never claimed to be good under pressure. My grammar not withstanding, my opinion on Miller is based solely on his performance markers through his current career. As LastPommerFan pointed out, he did acheive success in college and did have some consistently good numbers at the lower levels and shows a propensity to be considered one of the better goalies in the league.

I don't believe my critique of his big game failings warrants a stone being thrown at my window, if that were the case, glass companies throughout WNY would be the number 1 employers locally.

Posted

Don Edwards

Me too.

 

I'm not sure I've seen anything in Miller that leads me to believe he needs to be threatened to perform well.

He strikes me as one of the most self-motivated athletes the team has seen in ages.

 

As to his big game performances, there is a big difference between not winning and not performing well.

There are 39 other players out there.

 

If your standards are Dom, or Patrick Roy, or Bernie Parent, Miller falls short.

If they are Roberto Luongo, Carey Price, Henrik Lundqvist, and other noted cup-less goalies, he stacks up very well.

And I would take him over the Antti Niemis or Chris Osgoods every time.

Good post, especially the bolded part.

 

Stating factually that to date, Ryan Miller has been unable to close a big game successfully is not dogging or questioning Miller, it's straight out saying that he has not shown the ability to do so as of this date. I fail to see how stating fact is anything like you surmize, I have repeatedly stated Miller is a very good goaltender, but my thoughts digress back to the OP and I view Enroth as more of Hasek type goaltender as well. Not only in some of his style of play, but his mental game also.

 

As for Tim Thomas over Miller, I'd take Thomas everyday of the week and twice on Sundays for the simple fact that his has, in point of fact, acheived success in Big Games.

I'm not a fan of individual players success or failure rates, but of the overall success of the team.

If, by questioning whether or not Enroth has the ability to acheive success where Miller has failed angers some fans, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

No. It is absolutely a criticism of Miller. It's fair to do so, just as it's fair to prefer Thomas, but it's also fair for people to disagree with you, and it's BS to say that it's not a criticism.

 

I disagree with stating "Miller has not shown to be a big game goalie" as being FACT. Starting in college:

 


  •  
  • At MSU he won 2 CCHA championships as a starter and his NCAA Frozen four losses were both a result of the Spartans failing to score a single goal against Colorado College and North Dakota. Can blame the goalie for letting in one goal (+empty netter) and failing to win.
  • At Rochester in 03-04 he put up 2 shutouts and a god-like .934 sv% in the calder cup playoffs.
  • In Buffalo he's taken the team to 2 Eastern conference finals. One he lost because he literally had no defensemen left in front of him, and the other because the entire team vanished in front of him (Hecht and Afinagenov we the sabres leading scorers for the series)
  • In the 2010 playoff loss to the bruins, he still managed a spectacular .926 sv%
  • In the olympics he got scored on 1 on 1 with Crosby. Take any goalie ever, in his prime, and Crosby scores that goal 9 out of 10 times.

 

I agree that the Sabres have had a problem at crunch time, that problem has not been Ryan Miller. But if Jhonas is even better...that would be awesome.

Good post. I would just add that he was fantastic against Ottawa in the 2006 playoffs. That was IMHO the best team in the NHL that year and maybe the best team in the NHL since the lockout (although Detroit's cup team could've been better).

 

As for Miller's other playoff appearances, his teammates, no doubt well aware of the FA catastrophe that was about to befall them, more or less quit in the 2007 ECF, and his forwards, especially the "top 6", were pathetic against Boston in the playoffs last year and only slightly less so last year vs. Philly.

 

As for Miller on Crosby, first time I saw it I thought it was a soft goal too but watching it again, Crosby's decision to let it go right away was just sneaky-good and proof, for me at least, that he is the best player in the world. No shame in allowing that goal.

+1

 

I'll take them one at a time, but all in this post.

 

My definition of a big game would be those type of environments that are on high display or of such an importance to have adverse effect on the overall objective of a season, hence my high profile example of the Winter Classic combined with game 7 of the Philly series as well as the Gold Medal game.

That pretty much sums up high pressure situations to me.

And I do agree with you that my estimation on Miller's play in these situations is over simplistic, but then again, the KISS solution to most games seems to work. Alas, I cannot desuade myself from the opinion I have formulated about his game play during key moments, the individual outcomes of those events speak for themselves to me.

 

To James, you are correct in that Crosby made a fantastic decision, but I'll stick to my opinion that Miller is better than Crosby, he has shown flashes of brilliance for long stretches and short ones, further leaving me baffled by his lackluster performances during must wins or key moments.

It ultimately leads me to the opinion I have on his big game performance issue, I think he is better than those moments but for some reason un-be-known to me in any event, he fails in those key moments. But your point is also a good and valid one.

I would still like to see Enroth over Miller in the playoffs, just to see how he would react in those pressure situations, like I said, I don't believe it could hurt any given Miller's track record in those situations.

 

To LastPommersFan,

I do agree that it's a team effort, I have stated over and over again I do not like to emphasize the individual effort, but, in the case of these key moments that are either on high display or in must win situations, a leader must step up, and since Miller has chosen to shoulder the burden of leadership on this team I think it very fair to critique his performance above all others given the impact his position has on a given game and the subsequent potential outcome, point blank, he failed to perform in those key moments.

And on a side note, I don't give Miller much of any credit during the 2 ECF runs, our teams were high energy, run and gun teams that put on an immense amount of offensive zone pressure. Still, we didn't reach the finals each of those 2 seasons, the team that scored more goals than us in a series did.

In the 2008 Winter Classic, the Sabres had just been gutted by TG & LQ and were in the middle of a terrible season. They were playing a team that would reach the Finals, and they lost 2-1 in a shootout. You're saying Miller dropped the ball there? Really?

 

And you really think Miller is better than Crosby? If you polled all 30 GMs and asked them whether they'd rather have Miller or pre-concussion Crosby, do you think ANY of them would say Miller?

 

As for the ECF runs -- I assumed you watched the Ottawa series in 2006? Which team put on more offensive zone pressure in that series? It wasn't the Sabres.

Posted

 

 

In the 2008 Winter Classic, the Sabres had just been gutted by TG & LQ and were in the middle of a terrible season. They were playing a team that would reach the Finals, and they lost 2-1 in a shootout. You're saying Miller dropped the ball there? Really?

 

And you really think Miller is better than Crosby? If you polled all 30 GMs and asked them whether they'd rather have Miller or pre-concussion Crosby, do you think ANY of them would say Miller?

 

As for the ECF runs -- I assumed you watched the Ottawa series in 2006? Which team put on more offensive zone pressure in that series? It wasn't the Sabres.

So, one series in 6 denotes the entire 6?

Not so.....

 

Yes, I do believe Miller can be better and is better than Crosby. Both have the ability to take over games, series. Crosby shows up to do so, Miller has not as of yet, hence my opinion on his big game performance. You say the glass is half empty, I say it's half full, sound familiar? Opinions are like that.

 

I am not saying Miller dropped the ball in the Winter Classic, I am saying he failed in a big game moment, you say tomato, I say tomato.

It is what it is.

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