james duncan Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 Yep. Looked at some TOI sheets from the playoffs. It was Hartnell-Brier-Leino. Maybe LR's got the right idea putting McCormick on left wing of that line. Sure he doesn't score like Hartnell but plays the same. Edit: I mean on a line of McCormick-Leino-Stafford. Put Boyes with Roy. It was definitely Hartnell. If you're intent on trying to replicate that line and keeping Leino at center, wouldn't you rather have Ennis/Leino/Kaleta?
korab rules Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 It was definitely Hartnell. If you're intent on trying to replicate that line and keeping Leino at center, wouldn't you rather have Ennis/Leino/Kaleta? Leino and Ennis are tripping over each other out there. Ennis plays the same game as Leino, not the same game as Briere. You know who plays the closest game to Briere on our current roster? Vanek. He's just less sneaky about it, and he back checks.
SabresMojo Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 Leino and Ennis are tripping over each other out there. Ennis plays the same game as Leino, not the same game as Briere. You know who plays the closest game to Briere on our current roster? Vanek. He's just less sneaky about it, and he back checks. I agree; Vanek is similar to Briere. Just a little slower (not by much) and he still scores...just how they do that is different; but both have similar skill traits. I mean Leino had Briere and Hartnell. Briere was a goal scorer, Leino was more surrounding the net and Hartnell was just roaming...who would fit those roles? What about Pommers and Gerbs?
X. Benedict Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 It was definitely Hartnell. If you're intent on trying to replicate that line and keeping Leino at center, wouldn't you rather have Ennis/Leino/Kaleta? Big difference between Briere and Ennis. Briere gets most of his goals setting up and working inside within 10 ft. of the net. Ennis doesn't have Briere's strength yet to work low or get inside.
james duncan Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 I agree; Vanek is similar to Briere. Just a little slower (not by much) and he still scores...just how they do that is different; but both have similar skill traits. I mean Leino had Briere and Hartnell. Briere was a goal scorer, Leino was more surrounding the net and Hartnell was just roaming...who would fit those roles? What about Pommers and Gerbs? I am missing it. I don't see Vanek playing like Briere even a little bit. Both very talented, but similar games? No way. Vanek is looking more and more like Andreychuk--a quicker, better two-way maybe not quite as lethal (just yet) Andreychuk.
james duncan Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 Big difference between Briere and Ennis. Briere gets most of his goals setting up and working inside within 10 ft. of the net. Ennis doesn't have Briere's strength yet to work low or get inside. Agree on Ennis. The key word may be "yet". Remember Briere was essentially plucked off of the scrap heap by Darcy because he had not evolved into what he became as a Sabre. I think the fact is, we don't have a Briere or a Hartnell to team up with Leino beside the fact that Leino is now a center. He is going to have to re-invent himself here.
SabresMojo Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 I am missing it. I don't see Vanek playing like Briere even a little bit. Both very talented, but similar games? No way. Vanek is looking more and more like Andreychuk--a quicker, better two-way maybe not quite as lethal (just yet) Andreychuk. Im more referring to the brute skill to score and make scoring opportunities. The game styles of each are so different though.
nfreeman Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 This thing about MAG's great passing has been mentioned many many times, even when he was in Portland, but I haven't seen much of it, at least this season. Not that his passing has been horrible but he fumbles the puck so much and is so indecisive, I can't remember the last clean outlet pass from him. He's been lucky to get a backhand pass behind the net over to Sekera off in a panic most of the time. Well, I'm not sure what to say about this other than I completely disagree. I've been seeing MAG make one great pass after another, both in the defensive zone to his partner and in exiting the zone (as well as in the offensive zone). I think he understands spacing very well and is able to move a half-stride in whatever direction is needed to create a passing lane, and he then delivers the pass in the right position for the recipient and with excellent timing. He certainly has limitations -- i.e. his skating is only so-so, he doesn't win enough battles in the corners in the defensive zone, he doesn't have a great slapper from the point -- and it's quite reasonable to prefer what Weber brings to the table to what MAG brings (although it appears that Lindy prefers what MAG brings). But I am consistently amazed at how good and how consistent his passing is.
shrader Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 I sometimes wonder how message board banter/lingo/etc. would play with a sports fan like my great grandfather or something ... I suspect they would be glad to see we agree we will not be murdering players .... yet. Sounds like a Philly thing
BetweenThePipes00 Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 Well, I'm not sure what to say about this other than I completely disagree. I've been seeing MAG make one great pass after another, both in the defensive zone to his partner and in exiting the zone (as well as in the offensive zone). I think he understands spacing very well and is able to move a half-stride in whatever direction is needed to create a passing lane, and he then delivers the pass in the right position for the recipient and with excellent timing. He certainly has limitations -- i.e. his skating is only so-so, he doesn't win enough battles in the corners in the defensive zone, he doesn't have a great slapper from the point -- and it's quite reasonable to prefer what Weber brings to the table to what MAG brings (although it appears that Lindy prefers what MAG brings). But I am consistently amazed at how good and how consistent his passing is. Well again, it's not that I think he makes BAD passes ... but for instance against Montreal (my 3-year old is watching the game on DVR for the 3rd time, so I just looked up and saw this again) ... he the puck in the zone with no one else around except Sekera on the other side ... eventually Gomez came at him, and he just FROZE ... I can't say for sure he had great options up the ice, but he at least had Sekera by himself ... but he did nothing, Gomez chased him to the boards, poked the puck away and it turned into a loose puck in the middle of the ice. It's just one example and it's not every shift, but that's the kind of thing I was talking about. I should not have framed it to make it sound as if his passing is the issue, it's really his decision-making ... or maybe indecisiveness. Granted, Weber may have just banked the puck off the glass and had the Habs roaring back into the zone anyway, but I just trust him to do the safe thing more often than not. If MAG was the only guy who brought an offensive side to his game, i could see it, but I think they have plenty of that with Ehrhoff, Myers, Sekera, Leopold ... I know, I am nit-picking.
LGR4GM Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 Well again, it's not that I think he makes BAD passes ... but for instance against Montreal (my 3-year old is watching the game on DVR for the 3rd time, so I just looked up and saw this again) ... he the puck in the zone with no one else around except Sekera on the other side ... eventually Gomez came at him, and he just FROZE ... I can't say for sure he had great options up the ice, but he at least had Sekera by himself ... but he did nothing, Gomez chased him to the boards, poked the puck away and it turned into a loose puck in the middle of the ice. It's just one example and it's not every shift, but that's the kind of thing I was talking about. I should not have framed it to make it sound as if his passing is the issue, it's really his decision-making ... or maybe indecisiveness. Granted, Weber may have just banked the puck off the glass and had the Habs roaring back into the zone anyway, but I just trust him to do the safe thing more often than not. If MAG was the only guy who brought an offensive side to his game, i could see it, but I think they have plenty of that with Ehrhoff, Myers, Sekera, Leopold ... I know, I am nit-picking. It is not nitpicking it is recognizing that MAG may be a 1 dimensional player. He passes great... ok what else does he do? Nothing. IMO Weber skates better and makes decisions quicker. Obviously we know who is tougher. Do we need 5 offensive defenders? NO. Do we need a physical presence on the blueline yes. The defense job is to play defense. Weber shoots harder and better to IMO. Obviously MAG can improve his game and he is an asset but as of right now I just don't see him as being that good. Also our pp hasn't been that good maybe it is time to put someone else on the top unit... AKA MYERS
nfreeman Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 Well again, it's not that I think he makes BAD passes ... but for instance against Montreal (my 3-year old is watching the game on DVR for the 3rd time, so I just looked up and saw this again) ... he the puck in the zone with no one else around except Sekera on the other side ... eventually Gomez came at him, and he just FROZE ... I can't say for sure he had great options up the ice, but he at least had Sekera by himself ... but he did nothing, Gomez chased him to the boards, poked the puck away and it turned into a loose puck in the middle of the ice. It's just one example and it's not every shift, but that's the kind of thing I was talking about. I should not have framed it to make it sound as if his passing is the issue, it's really his decision-making ... or maybe indecisiveness. Granted, Weber may have just banked the puck off the glass and had the Habs roaring back into the zone anyway, but I just trust him to do the safe thing more often than not. If MAG was the only guy who brought an offensive side to his game, i could see it, but I think they have plenty of that with Ehrhoff, Myers, Sekera, Leopold ... I know, I am nit-picking. Well, decision-making is of course a critical item for a defenseman. My take on MAG's decision-making is that it's pretty good once he has possession of the puck -- he's just not that good at taking possession when it's contested. But I'll keep an eye on this tonight and report back. It is not nitpicking it is recognizing that MAG may be a 1 dimensional player. He passes great... ok what else does he do? Nothing. IMO Weber skates better and makes decisions quicker. Obviously we know who is tougher. Do we need 5 offensive defenders? NO. Do we need a physical presence on the blueline yes. The defense job is to play defense. Weber shoots harder and better to IMO. Obviously MAG can improve his game and he is an asset but as of right now I just don't see him as being that good. Also our pp hasn't been that good maybe it is time to put someone else on the top unit... AKA MYERS I don't think Weber is a better skater -- I would say they are about the same. Certainly MAG is better at skating with the puck than Weber is. As for decision-making, I'd say they're about equal in that respect as well -- but I think MAG is better at executing the decision (i.e. getting the puck where he decides it should go) than Weber is. Finally, the defense's job is not to just play defense -- it's to contribute to the team's ability to win the game. It's fair to say that a defenseman needs to be able to hold up his end in the defensive zone, regardless of how much offense he can contribute, but it's not like a coach or GM will disregard a defenseman's ability to contribute to the offense.
LGR4GM Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 Well, decision-making is of course a critical item for a defenseman. My take on MAG's decision-making is that it's pretty good once he has possession of the puck -- he's just not that good at taking possession when it's contested. But I'll keep an eye on this tonight and report back. I don't think Weber is a better skater -- I would say they are about the same. Certainly MAG is better at skating with the puck than Weber is. As for decision-making, I'd say they're about equal in that respect as well -- but I think MAG is better at executing the decision (i.e. getting the puck where he decides it should go) than Weber is. Finally, the defense's job is not to just play defense -- it's to contribute to the team's ability to win the game. It's fair to say that a defenseman needs to be able to hold up his end in the defensive zone, regardless of how much offense he can contribute, but it's not like a coach or GM will disregard a defenseman's ability to contribute to the offense. ...or the Sabres are 4-1 and Lindy doesn't agree with the MAG witch-hunt that the mouse potatoes have launched. Call it what you want. The second I see MAG put on his big boy pants and start playing some solid hockey, I'll stop. Until then I will stick by my we dont need 5 offensive defenders stance. If MAG proves me wrong than awesome because that means the sabres are better. I have not seen anything that makes me think he will yet. He may be able to pass better but Weber thinks quicker IMO and that is majorily impeding the MAGs play. Leopold has been solid. Regehr has been an animal. Myers is clearly a slow starter but he has been great at times. Ehrhoff is in a new system and was playing better MAGICALLY the second MAG was no longer with him. Sekera has not been very exciting but he has been reliable. All of the the other defenders bring more to the table than 1 skill set. MAG passes well. Regehr is tough, very sound defensively, and a seasoned vet. Myers can skate like the wind, plow ppl over, stickhandle and shoot. Leopold can skate and shoot and pass well. Ehrhoff has a rocket shot and can quarter back the PP. He is not defensively great but thats not his role. Weber will kill anyone who touches miller, he is defensively sound, physical and positionally pretty good. I am not arguing this, I am stating what I see IMO. It is not a witch hunt by the mouse potatoes or whatever you mean. It is a fan saying he thinks that MAG has looked very questionable in his own end and his offensive upside does not make up for that. If Weber didn't play for us I would be saying Morrisonn should be given a shot, thats how shakey MAG has looked. Sure maybe you play him and in 15-20games he gets his legs under him and all is well. If thats the case awesome. Until then, he has played poorly. Finally the defensman's job is to shut down offensive players in his own zone and create turnovers to give the forwards the chance to go back and score. Weber will force more turnovers than MAG.
dEnnis the Menace Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 Call it what you want. The second I see MAG put on his big boy pants and start playing some solid hockey, I'll stop. Until then I will stick by my we dont need 5 offensive defenders stance. If MAG proves me wrong than awesome because that means the sabres are better. I have not seen anything that makes me think he will yet. He may be able to pass better but Weber thinks quicker IMO and that is majorily impeding the MAGs play. Leopold has been solid. Regehr has been an animal. Myers is clearly a slow starter but he has been great at times. Ehrhoff is in a new system and was playing better MAGICALLY the second MAG was no longer with him. Sekera has not been very exciting but he has been reliable. All of the the other defenders bring more to the table than 1 skill set. MAG passes well. Regehr is tough, very sound defensively, and a seasoned vet. Myers can skate like the wind, plow ppl over, stickhandle and shoot. Leopold can skate and shoot and pass well. Ehrhoff has a rocket shot and can quarter back the PP. He is not defensively great but thats not his role. Weber will kill anyone who touches miller, he is defensively sound, physical and positionally pretty good. I am not arguing this, I am stating what I see IMO. It is not a witch hunt by the mouse potatoes or whatever you mean. It is a fan saying he thinks that MAG has looked very questionable in his own end and his offensive upside does not make up for that. If Weber didn't play for us I would be saying Morrisonn should be given a shot, thats how shakey MAG has looked. Sure maybe you play him and in 15-20games he gets his legs under him and all is well. If thats the case awesome. Until then, he has played poorly. watching the games this season, I've seen that there are quite a few people who take it upon themselves to make sure that Miller is protected, including a lot of the defense core. I don't think this is as valid a point anymore when arguing to put Weber in. Is he more physical than Grags? yeah, but Grags is a better executor as stated above by nfreeman. I don't think it's time to switch them yet, especially if you look at the +/- of Sekera and MAG...
LGR4GM Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 watching the games this season, I've seen that there are quite a few people who take it upon themselves to make sure that Miller is protected, including a lot of the defense core. I don't think this is as valid a point anymore when arguing to put Weber in. Is he more physical than Grags? yeah, but Grags is a better executor as stated above by nfreeman. I don't think it's time to switch them yet, especially if you look at the +/- of Sekera and MAG... ok then I will toss out a few more stats: If both players played a full 82 game season. Based off of their stats for the last year (yes ik MAG has a very small sample size of 14 games which includes last year and this year): MAG: 35.26 hits and 64.78 blocked Shots and 29.52 pts Weber: 223 hits and 139 blocked shots 23.78 pts
dEnnis the Menace Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 ok then I will toss out a few more stats: If both players played a full 82 game season. Based off of their stats for the last year (yes ik MAG has a very small sample size of 14 games which includes last year and this year): MAG: 35.26 hits and 64.78 blocked Shots and 29.52 pts Weber: 223 hits and 139 blocked shots 23.78 pts I agreed that Weber was more physical, no? extrapolating totals based on playing a full year is not an indicator in my opinion. How many times do we see guys go on streaks of not showing up? that includes blocked shots, points etc. Hockey is a game of consistency, and if MAG is consistent at what he does at the moment, and his defensive pairing has not allowed more goals against than for when they are on the ice, I'm ok with keeping him in until he shows otherwise. We're winning, and he's not coughing up the puck anymore than Myers to this point, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
LGR4GM Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 I agreed that Weber was more physical, no? extrapolating totals based on playing a full year is not an indicator in my opinion. How many times do we see guys go on streaks of not showing up? that includes blocked shots, points etc. Hockey is a game of consistency, and if MAG is consistent at what he does at the moment, and his defensive pairing has not allowed more goals against than for when they are on the ice, I'm ok with keeping him in until he shows otherwise. We're winning, and he's not coughing up the puck anymore than Myers to this point, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it. ok, and only 1 defensmen on the team is - anything and that is Ehrhoff (-2). If MAG was consistent he would be playing better.
dEnnis the Menace Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 1) ok, and only 1 defensmen on the team is - anything and that is Ehrhoff (-2). 2 )If MAG was consistent he would be playing better. 1 yupp...stemming from being on the ice for both shorties against Carolina. 2 So would Myers. My point is, the defense as a whole has been a little shaky, and no one has stood out (outside of Regehr) as being truly consistent. They need to gel, and taking guys in and out of the lineup so often is going to mess with that.
LGR4GM Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 1 yupp...stemming from being on the ice for both shorties against Carolina. 2 So would Myers. My point is, the defense as a whole has been a little shaky, and no one has stood out (outside of Regehr) as being truly consistent. They need to gel, and taking guys in and out of the lineup so often is going to mess with that. But Myers has shown signs of being awesome and better. He has improved. MAG has not improved at all. I guess I just don't buy into the "he is the best passer" thing. Also those 2 shorties were not only Ehrhoff's fault but also... thats right MAG's
dEnnis the Menace Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 But Myers has shown signs of being awesome and better. He has improved. MAG has not improved at all. I guess I just don't buy into the "he is the best passer" thing. Also those 2 shorties were not only Ehrhoff's fault but also... thats right MAG's I did fail to notice that he was on the ice there...so you are correct in that. :oops: I honestly would rather have Weber in over Sekera, not MAG. I think that pairing would be better off.
nfreeman Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 But Myers has shown signs of being awesome and better. He has improved. MAG has not improved at all. I guess I just don't buy into the "he is the best passer" thing. Also those 2 shorties were not only Ehrhoff's fault but also... thats right MAG's Based on what? Myers was terrible in the first half of the Montreal game (which was the most recent game). OTOH, MAG was much better vs the Habs than he was vs the Canes. Separately, I thought Ehrhoff was pretty good vs the Habs.
LGR4GM Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 Based on what? Myers was terrible in the first half of the Montreal game (which was the most recent game). OTOH, MAG was much better vs the Habs than he was vs the Canes. Separately, I thought Ehrhoff was pretty good vs the Habs. Myers playing crappy is about = to Mag when he plays good
nfreeman Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 Myers playing crappy is about = to Mag when he plays good Perhaps, but you stated that "Myers has improved." Don't fill the air with words and hope that some of them are worthwhile. Make them all worthwhile.
shrader Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 Perhaps, but you stated that "Myers has improved." Don't fill the air with words and hope that some of them are worthwhile. Make them all worthwhile. Sooner or later Weber will return the favor with a good old fashion reach around.
spndnchz Posted October 20, 2011 Author Report Posted October 20, 2011 Sooner or later Weber will return the favor with a good old fashion reach around. Or in Grags case an "atteindre près de".
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