[OT] Best Ever

[Weave]

Title and poll are self explanatory. Don't just vote. Make your case in this thread.

 

I'll start. I'm going with Bobby Orr. Painful for me to do because I've had a long standing hatred of all things Bruins going back to Terry O'Reilly. But really, how can you ignore this;

 

To this day he is the only defenseman to ever lead the league in scoring. And he did it twice.

Had 6 seasons where he scored over 100 points in an era where few players scored 100 points.

Had one season of 139 pts, a record for defensemen that still stands.

Was a ridiculous +124 in 1970/71

2 Art Ross Trophies (leading scorer)

3 Hart Trophies (MVP)

8 Norris Trophies (Best defenseman)

1 Conn Smythe trophy (playoff MVP)

1 Pearson trophy (player voted MVP)

1 Calder trophy (and voted to the all star team his rookie year)

2 Stanley Cups. BTW- Scored the clinching goals in both series finals.

Canada Cup MVP

10th in all time defenseman scoring with only 657 games played. Everyone above him on the list has played at least twice as many games, some played three times as many games.

 

In the 33 years since Orr retired only 3 players have passed Orr on the all time pts/gm list. And all 3 were during the most offensive era in the history of the league.

 

And, unlike Gretzky, Orr was a complete player. Even though he scored at a more prolific pace than most forwards he was a responsible defender. His coaches asked him not to block shots because they feared it would do further damage to his knee. Anyone remember Gretzky or Lemieux blocking shots? Orr did it regularly. And Orr had 42 fighting majors during his injury shortened career. And had a reputation as a heavy bodychecker.

 

GM Harry Sinden said it best. "(Gordie) Howe could do everything, but not at top speed. (Bobby) Hull went at top speed but couldn't do everything. The physical aspect is absent from (Wayne) Gretzky's game. Orr would do everything, and do it at top speed."

 

And Orr did something else that Gretzky and Lemieux didn't do. He revolutionized the game. Only the best forwards of his era would attempt end-to-end rushes. Orr did it and was very successful at it. Totally unheard of from a defenseman at the time. As hockey writer Jack Falla put it, “Orr had broken scoring records by such huge margins and played with such creativity and abandon as to alter a half century of tactical hockey orthodoxy about the proper role of a defenseman.”

 

What did Gretzky or Lemieux do to single handedly revolutionize the game?

 

 

Next !!

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Title and poll are self explanatory. Don't just vote. Make your case in this thread.

 

I'll start. I'm going with Bobby Orr. Painful for me to do because I've had a long standing hatred of all things Bruins going back to Terry O'Reilly. But really, how can you ignore this;

 

To this day he is the only defenseman to ever lead the league in scoring. And he did it twice.

Had 6 seasons where he scored over 100 points in an era where few players scored 100 points.

Had one season of 139 pts, a record for defensemen that still stands.

Was a ridiculous +124 in 1970/71

2 Art Ross Trophies (leading scorer)

3 Hart Trophies (MVP)

8 Norris Trophies (Best defenseman)

1 Conn Smythe trophy (playoff MVP)

1 Pearson trophy (player voted MVP)

1 Calder trophy (and voted to the all star team his rookie year)

2 Stanley Cups. BTW- Scored the clinching goals in both series finals.

Canada Cup MVP

10th in all time defenseman scoring with only 657 games played. Everyone above him on the list has played at least twice as many games, some played three times as many games.

 

In the 33 years since Orr retired only 3 players have passed Orr on the all time pts/gm list. And all 3 were during the most offensive era in the history of the league.

 

And, unlike Gretzky, Orr was a complete player. Even though he scored at a more prolific pace than most forwards he was a responsible defender. His coaches asked him not to block shots because they feared it would do further damage to his knee. Anyone remember Gretzky or Lemieux blocking shots? Orr did it regularly. And Orr had 42 fighting majors during his injury shortened career. And had a reputation as a heavy bodychecker.

 

GM Harry Sinden said it best. "(Gordie) Howe could do everything, but not at top speed. (Bobby) Hull went at top speed but couldn't do everything. The physical aspect is absent from (Wayne) Gretzky's game. Orr would do everything, and do it at top speed."

 

And Orr did something else that Gretzky and Lemieux didn't do. He revolutionized the game. Only the best forwards of his era would attempt end-to-end rushes. Orr did it and was very successful at it. Totally unheard of from a defenseman at the time. As hockey writer Jack Falla put it, “Orr had broken scoring records by such huge margins and played with such creativity and abandon as to alter a half century of tactical hockey orthodoxy about the proper role of a defenseman.”

 

What did Gretzky or Lemieux do to single handedly revolutionize the game?

 

 

Next !!

 

This!!:clapping:

 

and ... This!!:worthy:

[Cereal]

My write-in... Rory Fitzpatrick.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

If you ever saw Orr play on a regular basis, it's almost no contest.

[bills_fan_in_raleigh]

Gretzky from my view is best I ever saw. Orr was special for sure but the passes Gretzky made, his scoring ability and overall grace on the ice is why he gets my vote. The guy had ice vision never before seen or since in the NHL.

[LastPommerFan]

The only knock against Orr compared to Gretzky, Howe, or even Patrick Roy, is the Championships. That said, championships matter a lot, so I have to go with the Great One. Most points per game, Captain of the Stanley Cup Champions 4 times, 100 goals in one year (including playoffs). Orr was certainly a more complete player, but Gretzky was so good at scoring that it more than makes up for what Orr has on him in the D-zone.

[LabattBlue]

I voted for Orr and no need for me to justify it. Just go back and read post #1.

[Taro T]

Title and poll are self explanatory. Don't just vote. Make your case in this thread.

 

I'll start. I'm going with Bobby Orr. Painful for me to do because I've had a long standing hatred of all things Bruins going back to Terry O'Reilly. But really, how can you ignore this;

 

To this day he is the only defenseman to ever lead the league in scoring. And he did it twice.

Had 6 seasons where he scored over 100 points in an era where few players scored 100 points.

Had one season of 139 pts, a record for defensemen that still stands.

Was a ridiculous +124 in 1970/71

2 Art Ross Trophies (leading scorer)

3 Hart Trophies (MVP)

8 Norris Trophies (Best defenseman)

1 Conn Smythe trophy (playoff MVP)

1 Pearson trophy (player voted MVP)

1 Calder trophy (and voted to the all star team his rookie year)

2 Stanley Cups. BTW- Scored the clinching goals in both series finals.

Canada Cup MVP

10th in all time defenseman scoring with only 657 games played. Everyone above him on the list has played at least twice as many games, some played three times as many games.

 

In the 33 years since Orr retired only 3 players have passed Orr on the all time pts/gm list. And all 3 were during the most offensive era in the history of the league.

 

And, unlike Gretzky, Orr was a complete player. Even though he scored at a more prolific pace than most forwards he was a responsible defender. His coaches asked him not to block shots because they feared it would do further damage to his knee. Anyone remember Gretzky or Lemieux blocking shots? Orr did it regularly. And Orr had 42 fighting majors during his injury shortened career. And had a reputation as a heavy bodychecker.

 

GM Harry Sinden said it best. "(Gordie) Howe could do everything, but not at top speed. (Bobby) Hull went at top speed but couldn't do everything. The physical aspect is absent from (Wayne) Gretzky's game. Orr would do everything, and do it at top speed."

 

And Orr did something else that Gretzky and Lemieux didn't do. He revolutionized the game. Only the best forwards of his era would attempt end-to-end rushes. Orr did it and was very successful at it. Totally unheard of from a defenseman at the time. As hockey writer Jack Falla put it, “Orr had broken scoring records by such huge margins and played with such creativity and abandon as to alter a half century of tactical hockey orthodoxy about the proper role of a defenseman.”

 

What did Gretzky or Lemieux do to single handedly revolutionize the game?

 

 

Next !!

Hopefully this weekend I'll have time to come back and make the case for him, but at present I'd probably go w/ Gordie as the best ever.

 

A few counterpoints to your points above.

 

1. Bobby Orr was partnered with one of the best stay at home D-men of his era in Dallas Smith. Without Smith back there, Bobby's +/- is a lot lower.

 

2. Having the king of garbage men sitting in front of the net helped Orr's assist totals tremendously. Speaking of doing something nobody else was doing, Espo scored 76 when prior to that only Hull had ever got past 50. He broke the 60 goal plateau 4 times when there were very few breaking 50.

 

3. Mr. Harvey was clearly the best D-man of his generation and also won the Calder 8 consecutive seasons.

 

4. ONLY 2 SC Championships on absolutely stacked teams.

 

5. Gretzky still to this day is the only player ever to reach 200 points in a season and he did it 4 times. When the NHL record was 76 and pro hockey record was 77, he scored 92. 76 has only been topped 4 times in the NHL and he has the 2 highest.

 

6A. You say Gretzky didn't revolutionize the game, how often before he came into the league did you see the 'European' style utilized in the NHL? Never. How often did you see plays develop from behind the opposing team's net? Never.

 

6B. How many rules changes were implemented in the NHL because of Orr? I can't think of any, but how many were implemented because of Gretzky? At least 3: doing away with 3-on-3 by coincidental minors, moving the net out from 10' to 11' and moving it out from 11' to 13'.

 

6C. How many coaching innovations were incorporated due to Orr? (Not sure of the answer to that one.) How many were incorporated due to Gretzky? At least 1 and arguably 2 as there was a refinement to another. Captian Video started watching videos of games to try to figure out how to stop (or at least slow down) Gretzky. The Bruins started having Kasper follow Gretzky around the ice no matter where he was at and he was able to shut Gretzky down to a degree.

 

7. Won't even go into all of Gretzky's hardware.

 

8. Had Lemieux ever given a rat's rear end before the cancer and back problems, he would have been the best ever hands down. The year he got 199, he could have easily gotten 220 and I think 240 was within reach. Especially if he'd've been able to play with a good team.

 

9. While the league wasn't as wide open in Orr's day as it was in the '80's, there were a LOT of very bad teams in the '70's when he had his best years and the Bruins never held back against anyone.

 

Orr definitely was great. Absolutely 1 of the 2 best D ever and as you've stated quite well above a case can be made that he was the greatest player ever. As mentioned above, I'll try to find the time to make a case for Gordie this weekend. And for the record, had we had this discussion a month or 2 earlier, or maybe a month or 2 later, I might agree with you about Orr being the best. (Who knows, maybe I'll be back on board by the end of the weekend.)

 

Good topic for discussion.

[Weave]

Hopefully this weekend I'll have time to come back and make the case for him, but at present I'd probably go w/ Gordie as the best ever.

 

A few counterpoints to your points above.

 

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

 

Good topic for discussion.

 

There we go. Now we have a debate started. 'at's what I was lookin' for.

 

I'll counter when I have time after work. :blush:

[wonderbread]

I can't remember seeing Orr play other than what clips we have today to watch. I wanted to vote for the Great one but Orr has a far finer pedigree.

[X. Benedict]

If all of these guysa were 17 and you had first pick of the draft - I would take Gordie. He could do it all.

 

And I would sign my new captain to a 20 year contract along with his infant children.

[Weave]

If all of these guysa were 17 and you had first pick of the draft - I would take Gordie. He could do it all.

 

And I would sign my new captain to a 20 year contract along with his infant children.

 

That would've been a helluva draft year. 3 first ballot Hall of Famers. Just like in 1987 with Turgeon, Shanahan, and Sakic. Wait...... what? :bag:

[X. Benedict]

That would've been a helluva draft year. 3 first ballot Hall of Famers. Just like in 1987 with Turgeon, Shanahan, and Sakic. Wait...... what? :bag:

 

:lol: I remember when the Sabres drafted Turgeon. I remember somebody saying "He's even better than his brother Sylvain."

 

To which somebody else replied ironically, "Great. We should be soaring right past Hartford next year."

[sabre4life]

Gretzky hands down for me....

 

He was that dynamic on the Ice... and to this day the best player I have ever seen play the game...

[Braedon]

Great thread Weave. My $0.02.

 

I think one's vote is predetermined by their definition of 'best ever.' For me, it's the most complete player.

As such, I consider Orr to be the best ever. Weave's outline of his accomplishments speaks for itself, however to emphasize:

 

-I know you mentioned career pts/game, but I think it deserves another mention. 1.39 points per game is absolutely ridiculous for most players....let alone a defenseman. In comparison: Paul Coffey (1.09), Denis Potvin (.99), Ray Borque (0.98), Lidstrom (.74). And since Gretzky, Mario, and Coffey are the only players to surpass him, it's another notch for Orr.

- Howe and 99 never won the Calder

 

- Mentioned the hardware, but also the only player to win the Ross, Hart, Conn Smythe, and Norris in the same year

 

-Considered by many to be the best skater of all time. Multiple gears and effortless at changing speed. All this despite an entire career with knee injuries.

 

-Not only was he physical, he wasn’t protected like Gretz on have been.

 

-A one man penalty killer.

 

3. Mr. Harvey was clearly the best D-man of his generation and also won the Calder 8 consecutive seasons.

 

I didn't know you could be a rookie that long

 

4. ONLY 2 SC Championships on absolutely stacked teams.

 

Boston never won it without him. In contrast.....

 

6A. You say Gretzky didn't revolutionize the game, how often before he came into the league did you see the 'European' style utilized in the NHL? Never. How often did you see plays develop from behind the opposing team's net? Never.

 

Orr to Sanderson to Orr to clinch the '70 Cup was from behind the net.

 

 

Good points, Taro. Obviously I'm nitpicking. But for my money, Orr with good knees playing in the 1980s would have been something even more magical to watch.

[Drunkard]

My write-in... Rory Fitzpatrick.

 

How could you forget Jeff Jillson?

[Weave]

Was my rationale so good that I sceered y'all away? :D

[deluca67]

I went with other. My pick is Patrick Roy. Roy ushered in a new era of goal-tending. In all due respect to Orr and Howe, they pretty much played against empty nets. Roy, IMO, was as money a goal-tender as there has ever been. He won three Conn Smythe Trophies leading two different teams to Stanley Cups. He has Vezina, Jennings and Calder Trophies as well.

 

Roy has 551 regular seasons wins and a career 2.54 gaa. In the playoffs he has 151 wins and a 2.30 gaa. Statistically he was fantastic. In actual ability I don't think the numbers do him justice. I think the level of ability Roy had was far greater than the goaltenders that came before him. 99 and 66 were great. I think the gap between their talent and the players that came before them was not as great as Roy and the goaltenders before him.

 

I say this with all due respect for Ken Dryden, Pete Peters and Grant Fuhr. They were great goaltenders, Roy just took the position to a higher level.

[wjag]

Just for fun... Rocket Richard

 

"..the first to achieve the feat of 50 goals in 50 games.

the first to score 500 goals in a career. 544 goals in the regular season, 82 more in the playoffs which included a record six overtime winners (surpassed only by Joe Sakic who has eight),

led the league in goals five times.

421 assists for a total of 965 points in 978 games. He retired as the NHL's all-time leading scorer.

Richard won the Stanley Cup eight times in Montreal,

was captain of four straight cup wins from 1957–1960,

won the Hart Trophy in 1947,

was elected eight times to the first all-star team

six times to the second all-star team,

played in every National Hockey League All-Star Game from 1947 to 1959..."

had five goals and four assists vs Detroit in one game

scored the series clinching goal vs Boston in '52 after coming back into game with open head wound and concussion.. goal described as the "greatest in the history of the game"

 

facts lifted from Wiki..

 

Honorable mention:

 

Jean Beliveau - Name is on the Stanley Cup 17 times. 10 as player and 7 as management

[donteatyellowsnow]

I went with other. My pick is Patrick Roy. Roy ushered in a new era of goal-tending. In all due respect to Orr and Howe, they pretty much played against empty nets. Roy, IMO, was as money a goal-tender as there has ever been. He won three Conn Smythe Trophies leading two different teams to Stanley Cups. He has Vezina, Jennings and Calder Trophies as well.

 

Roy has 551 regular seasons wins and a career 2.54 gaa. In the playoffs he has 151 wins and a 2.30 gaa. Statistically he was fantastic. In actual ability I don't think the numbers do him justice. I think the level of ability Roy had was far greater than the goaltenders that came before him. 99 and 66 were great. I think the gap between their talent and the players that came before them was not as great as Roy and the goaltenders before him.

 

I say this with all due respect for Ken Dryden, Pete Peters and Grant Fuhr. They were great goaltenders, Roy just took the position to a higher level.

 

 

Stop! Roy is not even the best goaltender ever.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Stop! Roy is not even the best goaltender ever.

 

Isn't Roy a #1 / #2 / maybe #3 / or #4 center for the Sabres.

[RazielSabre]

I went with other. My pick is Patrick Roy. Roy ushered in a new era of goal-tending. In all due respect to Orr and Howe, they pretty much played against empty nets. Roy, IMO, was as money a goal-tender as there has ever been. He won three Conn Smythe Trophies leading two different teams to Stanley Cups. He has Vezina, Jennings and Calder Trophies as well.

 

Roy has 551 regular seasons wins and a career 2.54 gaa. In the playoffs he has 151 wins and a 2.30 gaa. Statistically he was fantastic. In actual ability I don't think the numbers do him justice. I think the level of ability Roy had was far greater than the goaltenders that came before him. 99 and 66 were great. I think the gap between their talent and the players that came before them was not as great as Roy and the goaltenders before him.

 

I say this with all due respect for Ken Dryden, Pete Peters and Grant Fuhr. They were great goaltenders, Roy just took the position to a higher level.

 

While I'll say he was a great, and completely agree he did change what goaltending was I'd say his stops short of the best in any position ever. I voted Gretzky because he transformed the sport globally, from the west cost (time with the Kings), over here (yes his even known in the UK, the place where Ice hockey practically doesn't exist). IMHO.

 

Am I wrong in saying everyone on that list is Canadian? CBA to look it up. Surprised no-ones gone for an american born player.

[Braedon]

Stop! Roy is not even the best goaltender ever.

 

 

Any pray tell who is the greatest ever?

 

 

Hands down, Roy is the best ever. A case may be made for Sawchuk, however IMHO it's not even close.

 

 

I like the against the grain tally.

[Taro T]

Any pray tell who is the greatest ever?

 

 

Hands down, Roy is the best ever. A case may be made for Sawchuk, however IMHO it's not even close.

 

 

I like the against the grain tally.

Sorry, he's not even the best of his era.

[darksabre]

Sorry, he's not even the best of his era.

 

Yeah, what about Robb Stauber.