OT - A Piece of Local History

[...]

Just what we need. Two volatile discussions in one thread. :blink:

 

Yeehaw! :pirate:

 

No, I won't clarify that here, anyway. It's so black and white, even Google doesn't mess up that search. If anyone's sense of balance is upset by being told the "separation of church and state" is a myth, then either keep believing it or look it up yourself.

[...]

Thank you. At least you get it.

 

 

Please. So, you are agreeing that symbols are definite - truth - and not arbitrary. The meaning of a symbol is tied to the symbol, and the symbol to the meaning, and neither subject to interpretation?

 

I guess I missed that memo.

 

Oh yes, and I forget that you're agreeing all Americans are born racists - just the white ones - and no other country or culture has "prejudices" (which is just as loaded a word as "racism" is).

[Eleven]

You all are making it very difficult for me to stay out of this, as I had promised myself after Saturday's outburst.

[...]

You all are making it very difficult for me to stay out of this, as I had promised myself after Saturday's outburst.

 

 

We have cookies.

[BuffaloSoldier2010]

In relation to the whole argument that seems to be going down here, I'd just like to say that People have a right to do, say what they want.

 

That being said, the first amendment is a two way street. Just saw these guys at the F'N center last night (best concert of my life) and i just thought this would be appropriate.

 

My link

 

I honestly couldn't care less if a tiny hamlet wanted to have the confederate flag on their firefighter patches. If the people who actually lived there had a problem with it, I'm sure it would have been addressed by now.

[shrader]

We have cookies.

 

Yeah, but they're mini-confederate flag cookies.

[LGR4GM]

Yeehaw! :pirate:

 

No, I won't clarify that here, anyway. It's so black and white, even Google doesn't mess up that search. If anyone's sense of balance is upset by being told the "separation of church and state" is a myth, then either keep believing it or look it up yourself.

I am asking if you are saying that it is a myth in the sense that clearly the church influences policy or that it is a myth that its protected under the constitution

 

just so we are clear according to the US Supreme Court Separation of Church and State is protected under the constitution. Go ahead and google that.

[BuffaloSoldier2010]

I am asking if you are saying that it is a myth in the sense that clearly the church influences policy or that it is a myth that its protected under the constitution

linky

[SwampD]

You all are making it very difficult for me to stay out of this, as I had promised myself after Saturday's outburst.

That's funny, I find that they are all making it very easy for me to stay out of this.

[X. Benedict]

This is going to read wrong to those who don't debate, but, the act of enslaving another human notwithstanding, slavery as an issue was an economic issue for the South. While the North was going industrial, the South was content to maintain the status quo economically.

 

The times were different then, obviously, and the Constitution wasn't an academic exercise, but a binding contract as far as the South was concerned. Groups in the North were aggressive in their abolitionist activities, threatening the economy of the South which was already beaten up.

 

This Wiki entry is really good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_American_Civil_War

 

 

 

 

 

Says the Washington Post. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

See above. Of course, slavery was a pivot point, but to say it was slavery alone is nonsensical. And to apply contemporary "enlightenment" to the mindset of the whole country at the time is by all means revisionism whether ignorant or intentional.

 

The dynamics of the country at the time were a lot more complex - but, of course, it's easy, now, to say it was all slavery, and Rednecks want their slaves back.

There is no civil war without slavery. I stand by that.

To say otherwise is a modern revisionism.

 

 

There is no nameable State right or entitlement that wasn't reducible to the cominglingling issue of slavery in that era.

 

If there is, name one? a right to economic independence....you are back to the economic system - slavery. western expansion....your are back to slavery, a right to an independent social order....back to slavery....even the tariffs you can't talk about without reference to the south's social order which was slavery.

 

That much isn't a moral judgement.

 

Individual people fought for all kinds of reasons - North (most northern soldiers were fighting for preservation of the Union) and South (many soldiers with patriotism swimming their hearts).....but the main State Right the south was concerned with was on its dependence on property rights (over slaves) being enforced where-ever they went. (West or North) That was the State Right most threatened.

 

(And for police, judges, and slave-catchers in WNY that included some economic costs to segments of the population in the north as well, which isn't a claim of mine that lacks nuance, as they benefited from the system)

 

 

Now ultimately the right to secede might have been a state right in itself....but secession to fight for the right to secede is a pretty thin reason to secede.

 

As far as bringing up the Washington Post (which I don't read) Rednecks (with I rarely say), etc...and a modern enlightened perspective (which I don't believe I was imposing, other than to say the modern claim that the war was State's Rights independent of the slavery issue is an extremely vague one) I will stop.

 

Anyway....you are welcome to any last words....I'm retiring from this one.

[...]

There is no civil war without slavery. I stand by that.

To say otherwise is a modern revisionism.

 

 

Straw man. I guess I'm done with you as well.

[LGR4GM]

Straw man. I guess I'm done with you as well.

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State...the legitimate powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions." Thomas Jefferson 1802. This was cited by the United States Supreme Court in Reynolds V. United States in which the court ruled that basically you can believe what you want but the laws of the country supersede any action you could take based on those beliefs (in this case polygamy). Therefore there is a clear separation of Church (beliefs) and State (actual laws).

 

So your "myth" has been busted...

[BuffaloSoldier2010]

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State...the legitimate powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions." Thomas Jefferson 1802. This was cited by the United States Supreme Court in Reynolds V. United States in which the court ruled that basically you can believe what you want but the laws of the country supersede any action you could take based on those beliefs (in this case polygamy). Therefore there is a clear separation of Church (beliefs) and State (actual laws).

 

So your "myth" has been busted...

who are you talking to hahahaha

[tmac8]

My link

 

 

Fascinating piece of history and discussion, people. At the end of the day, it's good that people have a forum to discuss serious stuff intelligently, even when they disagree. I don't think it necessarily makes someone racist because they don't make the link between states rights and slavery, but it may reveal an ignorance of the social, political, and economic impact slavery had on the lives of generations of Americans, of many ethnicities - even to this day. For example, the textile, steel, shipbuilding, and insurance industries were all heavily fueled by the slave trade, and cotton production. Some of these industries flourished well into the twentieth century, still using the cheapest labor available, some of it provided by black chaingang labor that was largely a result of the Jim Crow system. There are many people still alive who remember that kind of thing. That system was an expression of a way of life, social, economic, and political. The Confederate Flag is a symbol of that. As an aside: To render symbols meaningless means nobody on this board should care whether the Sabres go with slugs or cross-swords.

 

So at the end of the day, what the Town Line story should tell us is that our history is really complex, and gets more interesting all the time. That's why it's good to talk about the tough subjects, so we can keep learning.

 

Go Sabres??

[darksabre]

Please. So, you are agreeing that symbols are definite - truth - and not arbitrary. The meaning of a symbol is tied to the symbol, and the symbol to the meaning, and neither subject to interpretation?

 

I guess I missed that memo.

 

Oh yes, and I forget that you're agreeing all Americans are born racists - just the white ones - and no other country or culture has "prejudices" (which is just as loaded a word as "racism" is).

 

You're doing a really great job of completely ignoring the forest for the trees. You can try to nitpick the definition of a symbol all you want, but there is no way that you can argue that the confederate flag isn't associated with slavery.

[LastPommerFan]

After reading through last night discussion, I have to admit that it is a complement to the board that we have avoided fulfilling Godwin's Law as long as we have.

[korab rules]

After reading through last night discussion, I have to admit that it is a complement to the board that we have avoided fulfilling Godwin's Law as long as we have.

Shut up you nazi racist! :nana:

[korab rules]

You're doing a really great job of completely ignoring the forest for the trees. You can try to nitpick the definition of a symbol all you want, but there is no way that you can argue that the confederate flag isn't associated with slavery.

Actually, in more modern times, the confederate flag is associated more with red necks and monster trucks and Lynyrd Skynyrd than it is with slavery. Except to those who insist on seeing the worst in others.

[dEnnis the Menace]

Actually, in more modern times, the confederate flag is associated more with red necks and monster trucks and Lynyrd Skynyrd than it is with slavery. Except to those who insist on seeing the worst in others.

 

or Bo Duke and The General Lee... :rolleyes:

[5th line wingnutt]

 

Racism is no "bogeyman." It remains a social pandemic that effects millions each day. It is a disease born and spread through ignorance. It should never be excused. It should always be shown for what it is and it should be dealt with harshly.

 

What, exactly, is the definition of racism?