Another Player dead

[Marvelo]

Here's a fascinating interview with former Sabre enforcer Reggie Fleming, for those of you old enough to remember...he mainly played with the Blackhawks, then did journeyman time with the Rangers, Leafs and Bruins.(a 9 part interview)

 

[Eleven]

I'll stick by my position that hockey fights are much less likely to cause concussions (and thus, concussion-related mental illnesses) than hard hits will. A fist to the face is just not the same as a hardened elbow pad to the temple.

[Weave]

I'll stick by my position that hockey fights are much less likely to cause concussions (and thus, concussion-related mental illnesses) than hard hits will. A fist to the face is just not the same as a hardened elbow pad to the temple.

 

Two issues...

 

1. While fists might be less likely to cause concussions than an elbow pad, there are way more fists being thrown around by huge and powerful monsters than there are elbow pads being thrown around. And with that many more opportunities to cause damage it makes sense that the odds pile up for fist-based concussions. And there have been many interviews with fighters in the last couple years whith them discussing the concussions they've gotten as a result of their role. Fists cannot be discounted as a source for concussions.

 

2. Evidence is piling up fast that over the long term, multiple smaller head injuries (as in below concussion threshold) are very much damaging and result in long term brain health issues. The problem has mostly been diagnosed in offensive linemen but the concept certainly can be related to the NHL.

 

This issue has me at loggerheads. I am a fan of fighting in the NHL. I don;t want to see it go away. But I don't really care to have guys like Boogard suffer long term. IMO the NHL and sports in general need to put more money and effort into understanding the issue so they can do what it takes to not only prevent but help these players deal with long term consequences they get for our entertainment.

[Eleven]

Two issues...

 

1. While fists might be less likely to cause concussions than an elbow pad, there are way more fists being thrown around by huge and powerful monsters than there are elbow pads being thrown around. And with that many more opportunities to cause damage it makes sense that the odds pile up for fist-based concussions. And there have been many interviews with fighters in the last couple years whith them discussing the concussions they've gotten as a result of their role. Fists cannot be discounted as a source for concussions.

 

2. Evidence is piling up fast that over the long term, multiple smaller head injuries (as in below concussion threshold) are very much damaging and result in long term brain health issues. The problem has mostly been diagnosed in offensive linemen but the concept certainly can be related to the NHL.

 

This issue has me at loggerheads. I am a fan of fighting in the NHL. I don;t want to see it go away. But I don't really care to have guys like Boogard suffer long term. IMO the NHL and sports in general need to put more money and effort into understanding the issue so they can do what it takes to not only prevent but help these players deal with long term consequences they get for our entertainment.

 

On (1), sorry, I just don't see it. The fighters are not "huge and powerful monsters," for the most part, and even boxers wear gloves to protect their hands, and not the heads of opponents. I do discount it; maybe I'm wrong, but I do. I think collisions and cheap hits are much more of a problem.

 

(2) On this, I cannot speak; I'll trust what you're saying (and I'd be interested in reading on it, not to challenge, but just to read up).

 

Fighting will go away when hockey goes away; they can minimize a lot of it, with today's rules and today's ethic, by modifying equipment. Kill the hard pads on the arms, as a lot of folks have said; that's a good start.

[Weave]

On (1), sorry, I just don't see it. The fighters are not "huge and powerful monsters," for the most part, and even boxers wear gloves to protect their hands, and not the heads of opponents. I do discount it; maybe I'm wrong, but I do. I think collisions and cheap hits are much more of a problem.

 

(2) On this, I cannot speak; I'll trust what you're saying (and I'd be interested in reading on it, not to challenge, but just to read up).

 

Fighting will go away when hockey goes away; they can minimize a lot of it, with today's rules and today's ethic, by modifying equipment. Kill the hard pads on the arms, as a lot of folks have said; that's a good start.

 

I guess your definition of huge, powerful monsters is different than mine. I see guys like Laraque, Boogard, Macintyre, heck.... Peters in his first couple of years, McGrattan as monsters. Look at the size and weight of these guys. Playfair was a giant in his day at 215lbs. Some of these guys played over 245lbs.

 

As for the boxing reference, I don't think it works in your favor. Professional boxing has a long history of ignoring the long term effects of the participants. Their health issues are well documented and can be easily seen with the likes of Muhammed Ali. Heck, they even have a name for it, pugilistic dementia. And they have a much, much higher rate of pituitary disfunction as well (some studies indicate as much as 50% in boxers with long careers). Getting hit in the head repeatedly is damaging.

 

Do a google search on sports concussions when you've got time. Lots of articles detailing multiple minor head trauma leading to lasting long term damage.

 

 

I agree that cheap shots are a bigger problem. That doesn't discount the effects of fighting on the guys who's only role is to fight.

[Andrew Amerk]

Another thing to factor, is that when you have chosen to fight someone, your mind/brain/body is somewhat prepared for the punishment.

 

A cheap hit or blindside hit, is unexpected, and gives your brain a jolt it wasn't prepared to deal with..,

[Weave]

A few links about non-concussive head trauma.

 

New Orleans newspaper article

 

Lots of stuff at theconcussionblog

 

And this one goes into more detail and has more links

[Weave]

Another thing to factor, is that when you have chosen to fight someone, your mind/brain/body is somewhat prepared for the punishment.

 

A cheap hit or blindside hit, is unexpected, and gives your brain a jolt it wasn't prepared to deal with..,

 

It doesn't work that way. Your brain can't brace itself for a hit and deflect the energy. A hit to the head is a hit to the head whether you expect it or not.

[darksabre]

It doesn't work that way. Your brain can't brace itself for a hit and deflect the energy. A hit to the head is a hit to the head whether you expect it or not.

 

Shoulda gotten a brain from Toshiba.

[mudberry]

I wonder if it was him getting hit in the head too often, the stress of being in that role, or that it might take a certain type of person to fill that role who might be unstable to begin with. I'm guessing that a lot of enforcers might have had problems before they took on that role. I don't know a lot of guys who can fight, but the ones I do know may have been good people, but came from some pretty tough backgrounds which I'm sure made them somewhat inbalanced. Putting together one or two of those factors might send someone over the edge.

[Marvelo]

Here's a fascinating interview with former Sabre enforcer Reggie Fleming, for those of you old enough to remember...he mainly played with the Blackhawks, then did journeyman time with the Rangers, Leafs and Bruins.(a 9 part interview)

 

 

Even Fleming said they didn't punch as hard back then.

[X. Benedict]

Quite an acticle on Derek Boogaard and his C.T.E.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/06/sports/hockey/derek-boogaard-a-brain-going-bad.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all?src=tp

 

Gotta wonder if Barnaby might have it too.

[That Aud Smell]

Quite an acticle on Derek Boogaard and his C.T.E.

 

http://www.nytimes.c...nted=all?src=tp

 

Gotta wonder if Barnaby might have it too.

jesus.

 

as i was reading that article last night, i started to reflect on what i want and need out of this sport, or any sport for that matter. just a day or two ago, i was posting about how tootoo's antics should have been met with a full-on melee, an old fashioned donnybrook -- and that, later in the game, someone from our bench should have made someone answer the bell.

 

i think that those wants, needs, desires on my part come from another era of my life and of this game. the more i think about it, the more i think that the bare knuckle pugilism that is claimed as part of this great game's "culture" is something that needs to become an historical artifact.

 

if they/we don't chart a different course, then we're headed for something a lot closer to the plot of the running man than anyone would care to admit.

[Weave]

jesus.

 

as i was reading that article last night, i started to reflect on what i want and need out of this sport, or any sport for that matter. just a day or two ago, i was posting about how tootoo's antics should have been met with a full-on melee, an old fashioned donnybrook -- and that, later in the game, someone from our bench should have made someone answer the bell.

 

i think that those wants, needs, desires on my part come from another era of my life and of this game. the more i think about it, the more i think that the enforcer/desgnated fighter role that is claimed as part of this great game's "culture" is something that needs to become an historical artifact.

 

if they/we don't chart a different course, then we're headed for something a lot closer to the plot of the running man than anyone would care to admit.

 

I have commented in this forum before that the events of this past Summer (3 enforcers dead) have resulted in a lot of internal conflict for me. I am still very much entertained by a good hockey fight. And I still harbor an old school sense of how teams deal with on ice issues.

 

I changed the bolded part to reflect where i am at right now. I am very aware that these brain injuries aren't limited to just the Derek Boogards and Bob Proberts of the league. But I still think there is a place for the spontaneous outbreak of fisticuffs that happens among players that actually have a direct hockey-related value on the team. And, maybe I am fooling myself, but I am working under the assumption that smaller guys that don't focus their entire exsistance on learning how to more effectively hurt others aren't going to be as damaging in a fight as the Derek Boogards of the world. I think we are already seeing a pretty significant change in rosters that is reflecting this idea. The super heavyweight is becoming scarce as most teams can't afford to give up roster space for a guy who plays 4-6 shifts per game. Guys who can actually contribut like Milan Lucic, Scott Hartnell, and Ryan Clowe are rapidly replacing them. I think you'll see less fighting as a result, but the fights will be entertaining, less prone to injury, and more related to actual on-ice events instead of the staged garbage we watched for about 15 years.

[shrader]

Weave, I think turning a fight into a game misconduct would actually get you what you wanted. You're not going to get those prearranged choreography session that way. When a fight does happen, it would have to be very spirited. I can already see the complaints coming that it would be too harsh, so maybe you cut it back to 10 minutes instead. But either way, stiffer penalties would cut out the hippy love fest hug and kiss fights we see too often now.

[Weave]

Weave, I think turning a fight into a game misconduct would actually get you what you wanted. You're not going to get those prearranged choreography session that way. When a fight does happen, it would have to be very spirited. I can already see the complaints coming that it would be too harsh, so maybe you cut it back to 10 minutes instead. But either way, stiffer penalties would cut out the hippy love fest hug and kiss fights we see too often now.

 

I think that a game misconduct for fighting would get us turning back towards the designated enforcer becoming a standard item again. IMO there is no way that a Paul Gaustad or Robyn Regehr drops the gloves in defense of a teammate if they know they are getting kicked out of a game. They are too important to the actual game being played and they understand that. And you can bet that a guy like Zach Kassian would be told to leave the gloves on becuase they need his offense. IMO teams would be forced to turn to designated hitters because they would need someone "expendable" to take care of on ice issues.

 

It seems to me that the role of enforcer is slowly going away on its own with the current 5 minute major and possibility of an instigator penalty. I'd be willing to accept that a 10 minute misconduct may work though.

[Eleven]

jesus.

 

as i was reading that article last night, i started to reflect on what i want and need out of this sport, or any sport for that matter. just a day or two ago, i was posting about how tootoo's antics should have been met with a full-on melee, an old fashioned donnybrook -- and that, later in the game, someone from our bench should have made someone answer the bell.

 

i think that those wants, needs, desires on my part come from another era of my life and of this game. the more i think about it, the more i think that the bare knuckle pugilism that is claimed as part of this great game's "culture" is something that needs to become an historical artifact.

 

if they/we don't chart a different course, then we're headed for something a lot closer to the plot of the running man than anyone would care to admit.

 

Great post. I have the same internal conflict. About a month ago I watched some video of some of those Peca hits that I used to so loudly cheer and was kind of ashamed.

[That Aud Smell]

And, maybe I am fooling myself, but I am working under the assumption that smaller guys that don't focus their entire exsistance on learning how to more effectively hurt others aren't going to be as damaging in a fight as the Derek Boogards of the world.

 

perhaps. but recall this statement from the BU group who reported most recently on boogard:

 

“Rick Martin’s case shows us that even hockey players who don’t engage in fighting are at risk for CTE, likely because of the repetitive brain trauma players receive throughout their career,” said CSTE co-director Chris Nowinski, a former Harvard football player and professional wrestler who co-founded the Sports Legacy Institute to advance the study, treatment and prevention of brain trauma in athletes. “We hope the decision makers at all levels of hockey consider this finding as they continue to make adjustments to hockey to make the game safer for participants.”

 

prior to reporting on rico, that same center (CSTE) had an even sadder set of findings re: reg fleming (who was about the size of marty st. louis).

 

a good work-friend of mine and i had an actual falling out last year when goodell started hammering players for throwing themselves around like torpedos (something that is NOT a traditional part of that game, IMO). my friend is a diehard steelers fan and he took the position that you cannot legislate such violence out of that game without ruining it. i disagreed, strongly. we shouldn't have had 5+ strong ales when debating the matter. we've since bro-hugged and made up.

 

Great post. I have the same internal conflict. About a month ago I watched some video of

some of those Peca hits that I used to so loudly cheer and was kind of ashamed.

 

exactly.

[nbash]

I kept thinking about Barnaby, too. I have read a fair amount on the pressures of being an enforcer, and the recurring theme is the constant stress they carry knowing every day may end in a confrontation. Razor wrote about it really honestly in his book. Even the guys who seem to embrace the role completely carry that burden. I have had some contact with Ray and Playfair, fortunately they seem to show no signs of the level of post career trauma some of these poor souls have endured.

[Weave]

perhaps. but recall this statement from the BU group who reported most recently on boogard:

 

 

Which is why I prefaced it with, I may be fooling myself.

 

After Belak was found dead I spent some time on the interubes looking into CTE and found a site that had a research article on CTE and high school sports. They had a number of documented cases of significant CTE in people whose only known source for head trauma was youth sports, football mostly. I say this to make the point that I know any and all fighting is most likely going to contribute to CTE in the players I watch and root for. I am trying to reconcile my enjoyment of hockey violence with what I now believe to be the after effects of that violence.

[korab rules]

Which is why I prefaced it with, I may be fooling myself.

 

After Belak was found dead I spent some time on the interubes looking into CTE and found a site that had a research article on CTE and high school sports. They had a number of documented cases of significant CTE in people whose only known source for head trauma was youth sports, football mostly. I say this to make the point that I know any and all fighting is most likely going to contribute to CTE in the players I watch and root for. I am trying to reconcile my enjoyment of hockey violence with what I now believe to be the after effects of that violence.

I think the advocates and the emasculators of our society are taking the limited findings they have and spreading them way too far. Your post, Weave reveals it. They are finding signs of CTE in kids who only played high school ball. I played high school ball, and wrestled, and played rugby in college, and crushed beer cans on my forehead, and still hit my head on ###### all the time. I'm sure that if some science geek looked at my brain, he would find signs of CTE. But I'm not depressed, self medicating with alcohol, or engaging in auto erotic asphyxiation, which is how one of these guys actually died. Neither is Rob Ray, Mike Robitaille, Danny Gare, or any of the other guys we regularly see associated with the franchise who played professional hockey. The only way to eliminate the risk is to eliminate the sport, which the panty waist, emasculators would love.

 

You know what's bad for your brain? Living. As we live, we age. As we age, things break down. I liken this whole CTE debate to soft tissue injuries in the spine. Some people call it "degenerative disc disease". You know what it really is? Aging. As we age, our spine breaks down. If we live hard and don't lift heavy objects with our knees, it breaks down faster. When it hurts really bad, people self medicate with alcohol, especially if people have underlying mental health issues. Lets do a research project on the spines of professional athletes - I bet they show signs of degenerative disc disease - so should we ban lifting?

 

You can't remove all risk of injury from the game without destroying the game. Improve the equipment where you can, improve treatment to help them recover, but don't remove fighting and think it will have any substantial impact on the incidence of CTE. The study involving CTE in high school football players reveals the players will have CTE before they are old enough to fight, and it may not even come from playing hockey. As the multitudes of players who aren't out drinking their faces off and hanging themselves demonstrate, CTE as presently understood is not an accurate predictor of the long term health of players.

 

They haven't done the studies yet, but when they do I am confident things like open ice hits and hits along the boards by 200 lb men going 30 MPH impart far more trauma to the brain than a fight with a guy where only a few punches actually land.

[Weave]

But I'm not depressed, self medicating with alcohol, or engaging in auto erotic asphyxiation, which is how one of these guys actually died.

 

Well, it's a good thing you were speaking for yourself. :bag:

[korab rules]

Well, it's a good thing you were speaking for yourself. :bag:

 

I meant right now. :blush:

[Weave]

I meant right now. :blush:

 

So did I. :devil:

[nfreeman]

Quite an acticle on Derek Boogaard and his C.T.E.

 

http://www.nytimes.c...nted=all?src=tp

 

Gotta wonder if Barnaby might have it too.

jesus.

 

as i was reading that article last night, i started to reflect on what i want and need out of this sport, or any sport for that matter. just a day or two ago, i was posting about how tootoo's antics should have been met with a full-on melee, an old fashioned donnybrook -- and that, later in the game, someone from our bench should have made someone answer the bell.

 

i think that those wants, needs, desires on my part come from another era of my life and of this game. the more i think about it, the more i think that the bare knuckle pugilism that is claimed as part of this great game's "culture" is something that needs to become an historical artifact.

 

if they/we don't chart a different course, then we're headed for something a lot closer to the plot of the running man than anyone would care to admit.

I have commented in this forum before that the events of this past Summer (3 enforcers dead) have resulted in a lot of internal conflict for me. I am still very much entertained by a good hockey fight. And I still harbor an old school sense of how teams deal with on ice issues.

 

I changed the bolded part to reflect where i am at right now. I am very aware that these brain injuries aren't limited to just the Derek Boogards and Bob Proberts of the league. But I still think there is a place for the spontaneous outbreak of fisticuffs that happens among players that actually have a direct hockey-related value on the team. And, maybe I am fooling myself, but I am working under the assumption that smaller guys that don't focus their entire exsistance on learning how to more effectively hurt others aren't going to be as damaging in a fight as the Derek Boogards of the world. I think we are already seeing a pretty significant change in rosters that is reflecting this idea. The super heavyweight is becoming scarce as most teams can't afford to give up roster space for a guy who plays 4-6 shifts per game. Guys who can actually contribut like Milan Lucic, Scott Hartnell, and Ryan Clowe are rapidly replacing them. I think you'll see less fighting as a result, but the fights will be entertaining, less prone to injury, and more related to actual on-ice events instead of the staged garbage we watched for about 15 years.

Great post. I have the same internal conflict. About a month ago I watched some video of some of those Peca hits that I used to so loudly cheer and was kind of ashamed.

 

I just read the NYT piece. Very compelling. I've generally been pretty adamant about banning headshots but less so about banning fighting (i.e. I've felt on balance that it should be banned but without the strong feelings I have about headshots). After reading that piece I'm definitely, and emphatically, ready to get rid of the "super heavyweight" role in hockey. Not sure what the best way to do it is IF we want to retain the ability of guys like Lucic, Gaustad, etc. to get in the occasional scrap, but it could be as simple as suspending anyone who gets in a fight who doesn't also average X minutes of ice time per game -- and perhaps suspending the fighter's coach as well. No one should get funneled into the life that Boogard led.

 

I kept thinking about Barnaby, too. I have read a fair amount on the pressures of being an enforcer, and the recurring theme is the constant stress they carry knowing every day may end in a confrontation. Razor wrote about it really honestly in his book. Even the guys who seem to embrace the role completely carry that burden. I have had some contact with Ray and Playfair, fortunately they seem to show no signs of the level of post career trauma some of these poor souls have endured.

 

That's good to know.

 

I think the advocates and the emasculators of our society are taking the limited findings they have and spreading them way too far. Your post, Weave reveals it. They are finding signs of CTE in kids who only played high school ball. I played high school ball, and wrestled, and played rugby in college, and crushed beer cans on my forehead, and still hit my head on ###### all the time. I'm sure that if some science geek looked at my brain, he would find signs of CTE. But I'm not depressed, self medicating with alcohol, or engaging in auto erotic asphyxiation, which is how one of these guys actually died. Neither is Rob Ray, Mike Robitaille, Danny Gare, or any of the other guys we regularly see associated with the franchise who played professional hockey. The only way to eliminate the risk is to eliminate the sport, which the panty waist, emasculators would love.

 

You know what's bad for your brain? Living. As we live, we age. As we age, things break down. I liken this whole CTE debate to soft tissue injuries in the spine. Some people call it "degenerative disc disease". You know what it really is? Aging. As we age, our spine breaks down. If we live hard and don't lift heavy objects with our knees, it breaks down faster. When it hurts really bad, people self medicate with alcohol, especially if people have underlying mental health issues. Lets do a research project on the spines of professional athletes - I bet they show signs of degenerative disc disease - so should we ban lifting?

 

You can't remove all risk of injury from the game without destroying the game. Improve the equipment where you can, improve treatment to help them recover, but don't remove fighting and think it will have any substantial impact on the incidence of CTE. The study involving CTE in high school football players reveals the players will have CTE before they are old enough to fight, and it may not even come from playing hockey. As the multitudes of players who aren't out drinking their faces off and hanging themselves demonstrate, CTE as presently understood is not an accurate predictor of the long term health of players.

 

They haven't done the studies yet, but when they do I am confident things like open ice hits and hits along the boards by 200 lb men going 30 MPH impart far more trauma to the brain than a fight with a guy where only a few punches actually land.

 

You make a lot of reasonable points here, but the bolded part is a straw man, IMHO. No one is trying to remove all risk of injury. But there is a discrete set of actions (fighting and head shots) that result in a discrete set of terrible consequences. The guardians of the game can and, IMHO, should be trying very hard to reduce the occurrence of those outcomes.

 

And, respectfully, the football studies are really neither here nor there. Football is a much different game, with both practices and games consisting of lining up, digging cleats into grass and repeatedly bashing heads on heads. Of course the incidence is going to be much higher in football -- and the troubling question is whether there is anything that can be done about it, since it's really the essence of the game, or at least of interior line play, which is an essential part of the game. The essence of hockey is skating, passing, shooting, checking, defending and goaltending. It doesn't require head shots or fighting.