College vs. CHL

[SabresFan526]

I found this interesting article in the Sporting News here.

 

Really interesting. I don't follow the CHL or College that much. However, I tend to agree with what Bylsma says in the article. I find that the really good players that come out of college at age 20 or 21 tend to be more NHL ready than some of the top CHL prospects at the same age.

 

I also don't think it's a very even playing field. Generally, the best prospects are going to the CHL. If you have to make a decision at age 15 to decide where you play when you are 16-18, how do you know whether you should go to the CHL, USHL, USNDTP? If you choose CHL at 16, it's a life altering decision that eliminates the college option altogether. If you choose USHL/USNDTP, you could still go to CHL or college when you turn 18. But, for a lot of these kids, it's about getting drafted at 18, so you are probably better served going the CHL route at 16 for the purpose of getting drafted unless you are a really top guy who can choose where you want to go. I thought it was an interesting article that I would share. Any thoughts on which is better? Personally, I'd be interested in seeing how college hockey can successfully attract better talent to make it more of a threat to CHL because I genuinely do believe that the comparable guys coming out of college are more NHL ready than the CHL guys. Just my opinion.

[neverenough]

I would want to play for North Dakota fighting sioux if its me, i'm not sure whats better tho.

[shrader]

I would want to play for North Dakota fighting sioux if its me, i'm not sure whats better tho.

 

They along with 5 or 6 other schools are absolute NHL factories. But then again, I can't picture too many kids having the greatest image of North Dakota in their heads. But anyway, this battle is lost for the NCAA. They will never be able to compete with the payments the CHL teams are making and the leagues themselves will never cut back on those deals.

[PromoTheRobot]

They along with 5 or 6 other schools are absolute NHL factories. But then again, I can't picture too many kids having the greatest image of North Dakota in their heads. But anyway, this battle is lost for the NCAA. They will never be able to compete with the payments the CHL teams are making and the leagues themselves will never cut back on those deals.

If you are from Manitoba, Alberta or Saskatchewan, North Dakota looks like home.

 

PTR

[shrader]

If you are from Manitoba, Alberta or Saskatchewan, North Dakota looks like home.

 

PTR

 

I knew that exact point would be made by someone. Now compare living and play in North Dakota for free on a scholarship (granted, their arena is a palace) vs. being paid to live and play in any of the CHL towns. But it's not just the kids getting paid either. There are stories floating around that some of these teams have even offered an educational package to younger siblings of the players, so then you get pressure from the parents as well.

[PromoTheRobot]

I knew that exact point would be made by someone. Now compare living and play in North Dakota for free on a scholarship (granted, their arena is a palace) vs. being paid to live and play in any of the CHL towns. But it's not just the kids getting paid either. There are stories floating around that some of these teams have even offered an educational package to younger siblings of the players, so then you get pressure from the parents as well.

Well I was just addressing the point that ND is just like the Canadian prairie provinces. But you are right about the CHL. You can get paid AND get a scholarship if you want it? (At what schools, though?) And the CHL plays an NHL-like schedule so coming out you are already used to the grind. Tough call.

 

PTR

[IKnowPhysics]

I'll toss in an aside:

 

Because of Pegula's charity with Penn State, essentially creating the Penn State D-I team out of pure cash, this has caused a reorganization of college hockey and the formation of the Big Ten hockey conference. It'll start in 2013-2014.

 

Schools in Big Ten hockey: Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Penn State.

 

The Big Ten schools will get their pick of non-conference play, including games against former conference rivals in the WCHA and CCHA. And while there are several great programs around the country (ND, Denver, CC, BC, NH, Miami, Maine, Cornell...), Big Ten hockey may end up being a very potent combination of hockey powerhouses. I'd even go so far to say that what could be elevated competition between Big Ten teams may lead to more effective recruiting, benefiting not only the Big Ten schools, but D-I hockey overall.

[SabresFan526]

They along with 5 or 6 other schools are absolute NHL factories. But then again, I can't picture too many kids having the greatest image of North Dakota in their heads. But anyway, this battle is lost for the NCAA. They will never be able to compete with the payments the CHL teams are making and the leagues themselves will never cut back on those deals.

Unfortunately, this is the fundamental problem. For a Canadian kid, it's not that big of a deal. I think those guys who choose college were either not drafted out of Bantam/late bloomers, or they actually wanted to go to a good school and get an education and hence voluntarily chose an American University. For the American kids, I can see it as a real problem. If it's their dream to play at the NHL level, the CHL can offer more money and give that kid a better chance of getting drafted at 18 if they come in at 16. The other advantage the CHL has is they can start recruiting the kids at 15 while colleges can really only start recruiting in earnest when the kid is 17.

 

For the 18 year old kid who has already been drafted and is college eligible, I think it's a bit of a wash. In that situation, comparatively, I have noticed that the college kids can outperform comparable kids who play at the CHL level. For example, you will notice that many of the guys who made it to the NHL ranks after getting drafted and playing in college were all relatively late draft picks (Miller, Drury, Gerbe, Kennedy, St. Louis was not drafted) and have outperformed many people in their draft classes.

 

If we look at Chris Drury, he was drafted in the third round of the 1994 draft. In that round, only Sheldon Souray, Chris Clark, and Frederic Modin have really had any impact at the NHL level, and Drury and Clark are both college guys. In Ryan Miller's draft class, the only other player drafted in the 5th round to have any semblance of an NHL career aside from Miller was Niko Dimtrakos who also went to college. The point here isn't to say that the draft is a complete crapshoot, which we all know is the case. However, when looking at "comparable" players drafted in the same round as the players I have identified, the ones that went to college ended up outperforming those that did not. Sure, admittedly, this is not scientific and how much of that falls on the player, environment, talent, etc? But, the guys considered similar prospects at the same age that came out of the CHL in Drury and Miller's draft classes never sniffed the NHL and at some level, I believe that college allowed these guys to refine their game better and allowed them to be more NHL ready upon completion of their college career than comparable prospects that went through the CHL route. Just my opinion.

[shrader]

It's an interesting thought, but I think you're being way too selective in your examples. If you pick the cream of the college crop, of course the NCAA will look better in those specific rounds of the draft. But if you go into other rounds, the numbers fall back towards the other sources instead (major junior and europe). That Drury draft is a great example. Take a look at some of the later rounds.

 

I think the recruitment thing might be a bit overblown too. They may not be able to approach the younger kids in the NCAA, but that doesn't mean those kids aren't approaching them. The power schools are getting verbal commitments from 14-15 year olds. In a lot of these cases, major junior winds up poaching them once they're 17. Something changes for these kids once they approach playing time. It's the piles of green paper bouncing around in their mind.

[X. Benedict]

They along with 5 or 6 other schools are absolute NHL factories. But then again, I can't picture too many kids having the greatest image of North Dakota in their heads. But anyway, this battle is lost for the NCAA. They will never be able to compete with the payments the CHL teams are making and the leagues themselves will never cut back on those deals.

 

I think the most a CHL player can make is about $500 per week. Plus they stay with host families. (who knows what happens off the books)

 

Most colleges with a DI program are going to get a scholarship valued at anywhere from $25,000 to $55,000 per year. (and again, who knows what happens off the books)

 

So it comes down to how individual players value it up.

[shrader]

I think the most a CHL player can make is about $500 per week. Plus they stay with host families. (who knows what happens off the books)

 

Most colleges with a DI program are going to get a scholarship valued at anywhere from $25,000 to $55,000 per year. (and again, who knows what happens off the books)

 

So it comes down to how individual players value it up.

 

Obviously the "off the books" thing is key here, but also, that money from the CHL actually winds up in their pockets. The scholarship money doesn't. Now put that realization in the mind of a teenager and you can imagine how many will choose.

[Supersabre]

If we are talking about the Central Hockey League which I'm assuming is being discussed we have a CHL team right here in Wichita, Kansas called the Wichita Thunder. Alot of the players that come here are either on the tail end of their hockey careers or are looking to catch on with a professional club via another league such as the ECHL or something of that sort. We did at one time have a few teams within the CHL that are or were farm clubs for the bigger NHL clubs. The CHL has a website which I will not link to because I really don't want to violate any board etiquette here so to speak. The website itself is googled pretty easily.

 

I believe that there is a CHL team currently that is a farm club for the Sabres. At the moment I cannot remember which one it is.

[SabresFan526]

If we are talking about the Central Hockey League which I'm assuming is being discussed we have a CHL team right here in Wichita, Kansas called the Wichita Thunder. Alot of the players that come here are either on the tail end of their hockey careers or are looking to catch on with a professional club via another league such as the ECHL or something of that sort. We did at one time have a few teams within the CHL that are or were farm clubs for the bigger NHL clubs. The CHL has a website which I will not link to because I really don't want to violate any board etiquette here so to speak. The website itself is googled pretty easily.

 

I believe that there is a CHL team currently that is a farm club for the Sabres. At the moment I cannot remember which one it is.

The discussion based on the original article link I posted was in reference to comparing how young players grow up through the ranks and comparing College Hockey with the Canadian Hockey League or what is often called Canadian Junior Hockey comprised of three major leagues - the Western Hockey League, Ontario Hockey League, and Quebec Major Junior Hockey League.

[Supersabre]

The discussion based on the original article link I posted was in reference to comparing how young players grow up through the ranks and comparing College Hockey with the Canadian Hockey League or what is often called Canadian Junior Hockey comprised of three major leagues - the Western Hockey League, Ontario Hockey League, and Quebec Major Junior Hockey League.

 

:oops:

[shrader]

And the Amerks are the only farm club for the Sabres.

[nobody]

And the Amerks are the only farm club for the Sabres.

 

 

You mean - the Amerks are the only other part of the Sabres University.

[korab rules]

You mean - the Amerks are the only other part of the Sabres University.

Lets hope Sabres Community College in Elmira, NY opens soon!

[korab rules]

On this whole CHL vs. College thing - I think a lot depends on the individual player, what country they are from, and what their family background is like. I think both organizations can prepare a player for the pro game, but one is going to put you in the pros at 19 or 20, the other at 21, 22 or 23.

 

For the top players for whom the NHL is guaranteed, the CHL is probably a better option, because it gets you there quicker. You are playing in a highly scouted league from the time you are 16, and all the NHL teams see you. You receive excellent coaching, and are prepared for the pro game. At 19 you head to the AHL or very rarely to the NHL. Even the guys in the AHL are making mid six figures, so its a pretty good gig. BUT - you had better make the NHL, because you are ill-prepared for life after hockey with nothing but a high school degree and no real life skills.

 

For the top Canadian kids (and by top I mean the sure bets and the next level below them), I will let one of our Canadian members chime in, but I would imagine that college hockey in the states isn't much of a draw. I would think that College in the States only become a draw for the late bloomers who weren't drafted into the CHL, who were playing minor junior (unpaid) and are looking for their next option. I know that a lot of these kids are coming down here to play, even at the Div. III level.

 

For US kids, the CHL is an option, but they have to get drafted or try out and make the team. Not an easy task. Even if they make the team, it's not necessarily a great option unless they are a top player, for the reasons stated above. I can understand the lure if these kids are from families who struggle financially, as the cost of top tier programs necessary to get an American kid noticed, or prep school, is staggering. Prep schools run in the 30-50K range. Even local AAA teams are 5k to get in the door, with another 25K in travel and tournament expenses. Junior programs can be a little cheaper, but the top programs aren't. For kids who live in remote areas or simply can't afford these top programs, the CHL may be the only alternative they have.

 

Let's face it, for the vast majority of kids, college is the better option. Get your degree, because the reality is you are unlikely to make a living playing hockey. Even if you do, it won't last forever.

 

As far as the USHL, it's still an amateur program so it maintains college eligibility, and is a great option for the kids good enough to play there. Look at some of the names and accomplishments of kids who have graduated from that program - you would be crazy not to play there if invited. I'm not sure how the finances work with the USHL, but as with everything hockey, I am sure it's not cheap.

[shrader]

The point about the Canadian kid going the college route is an interesting one. There always seems to be a couple 1st or 2nd round picks who were Canadian kids who went NCAA. I'm not sure what their reasoning is, but there are always a few. The recent trend for these players and for American kids as well seems to be that they get drafted and then they head north to the CHL. That's the disturbing part. It makes sense for a kid like Jamie Oleksiak when the coach who recruited him jumps ship after his freshman year. The really confusing one though is Louis LeBlanc, a 1st round pick of Montreal a few years back. He was drafted, then went to Harvard for a year, before leaving. Please explain that one to me. He wasn't getting a single penny to go to school there and education clearly was a motivating factor.

[Cereal]

I'll toss in an aside:

 

Because of Pegula's charity with Penn State, essentially creating the Penn State D-I team out of pure cash, this has caused a reorganization of college hockey and the formation of the Big Ten hockey conference. It'll start in 2013-2014.

 

Schools in Big Ten hockey: Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Penn State.

 

The Big Ten schools will get their pick of non-conference play, including games against former conference rivals in the WCHA and CCHA. And while there are several great programs around the country (ND, Denver, CC, BC, NH, Miami, Maine, Cornell...), Big Ten hockey may end up being a very potent combination of hockey powerhouses. I'd even go so far to say that what could be elevated competition between Big Ten teams may lead to more effective recruiting, benefiting not only the Big Ten schools, but D-I hockey overall.

 

Thought for sure that shrader would comment on your snub of BU in that list :unsure: :w00t:

[shrader]

Thought for sure that shrader would comment on your snub of BU in that list :unsure: :w00t:

 

He listed Cornell, so clearly he has no clue what he's talking about. :lol:

 

Really though, I don't think the Big 10 will have any impact on recruiting. There is no answer to the CHL teams throwing money around under the table. Sure, the colleges could do the same, but there just isn't the market for them to do so.

[LastPommerFan]

Notre Dame Joining Hockey East.

 

Nice!