The Official Beer Appreciation Thread

[sabills]

I absolutely believe this 100% and you know why?  This is a common occurrence among all brewers.  The hop varietals and strengths are constantly changing based on contracts, growing seasons, etc.  There are beers that were once brewed predominantly with CTZ that now use completely different hops.  The grain bills change as well.  The end result?  Most people never notice.  They keep on drinking it.

 

The argument is that the quality will go down hill.  My point was there is no proof the quality has gone down hill.  Brewing with corn and rice does not equate to a crappy beer.  In fact, Budweiser is a quality product it just produces a flavor profile I do not like.  However, I have had really great beers that use corn and rice in their grain bills.  Especially rice.

 

The "5 point plan" is pure FUD.  It's not a new argument and its based on this merger deal.  So now SAB Miller ABinbev will be able to crush the craft market?  Nothing in that merger does ANYTHING to the craft market that could not have already been done.

 

There are changes in the craft marketplace to help offset the perceived impacts of the macro breweries coming into the market.  Some are obvious and others are less so.  I saw a reference to Kim Jordan (New Belgium owner) earlier today but I did not pull the article down.  The gist was talking of partnerships and regional craft brewers using extra capacity to brew "partner" brands to reduce distribution costs and turn out more volume without building out. In addition, they could co-op into pricing agreements that allow them to compete at the price level, not just the quality level.

 

I should also add that I've never considered Goose Island IPA to be anything spectacular.  It probably could use a little lighter body. :)

 

I JUST talked to a brewer in the area about that recently. What hops and malts they can get their hands on change a lot, especially for the small guys. Also, different harvests mean different crops, even from the same field.

 

In wine this is almost an advantage: wineries make a specific "vintage" of a wine from that years crop, and every time its a little different. Beer customers expect consistency across years and decades of drinking their favorites.

 

According to the brewer, the key is getting your beer to change so slowly and subtly that people don't notice. Thats where it becomes both an art and a science: not just in making a good beer, but making a good beer that is consistently a good beer, and also within a range of flavors that people will recognize as being the  "same" beer.

 

EDIT: Broke up my wall o' text a bit

Edited April 15, 2016 by sabills

[TrueBlueGED]

God bless those guys. For my money (and taste), they have the best collection of beers among the local brewers. But I think they have struggled a bit to make it work monetarily. Seems like they're starting to turn a corner, though.

I've heard nothing but great things about CBW and I still haven't been there. Hearing about the financial stuff makes me feel great shame.

[LGR4GM]

Speaking of beer has anyone had anything from Funky Buddha Brewing out of, Florida I think?

[That Aud Smell]

To your first point, I know an A-B distributor personally.  I'd go so far as to call him a friend.  I'd be very surprised indeed if he had knowledge of the grain bills of the various A-B controlled brands.  He's never let on that he does.  And we've had conversations that would have brought it out.   Maybe he does and keeps it quiet.  That would be counter to his style though.

 

Re: Southern Tier IPA.  I know for a fact it has undergone at least 1 recipe tweek during its lifespan.  Phin has told me as much back when he was accessible at the brewery.  I'd be shocked if it hasn't been tweeked again.  I suspect it happens more than we think with most breweries.  I'm sure ingredient availability and price often drives it.

 

On the A-B distributor type: I was probably unclear. The people I know are foot solider beer sales types. They live in the Chicago area. They are what I'd call hipsters - beards, tattoos, etc. They're personally friendly with people who work in the brew house. Those folks are telling tales - griping a bit. Take it with a grain of salt, sure. But it only makes sense, really.

 

Interesting point on ST IPA. This is something I had not really considered, even while knowing that it is getting harder and harder for brewers to get the same stuff at their delivery bays week in and week out. This calls to mind the fact that, much more recently, I'd been pleased to notice a change for the better in the ST IPA. This bears further research!  :beer:

 

I absolutely believe this 100% and you know why?  This is a common occurrence among all brewers.  The hop varietals and strengths are constantly changing based on contracts, growing seasons, etc.  There are beers that were once brewed predominantly with CTZ that now use completely different hops.  The grain bills change as well.  The end result?  Most people never notice.  They keep on drinking it.

 

This is a fair point, as I indicated above. 

 

The argument is that the quality will go down hill.  My point was there is no proof the quality has gone down hill.  Brewing with corn and rice does not equate to a crappy beer.  In fact, Budweiser is a quality product it just produces a flavor profile I do not like.  However, I have had really great beers that use corn and rice in their grain bills.  Especially rice.

 

I'll tend to disagree here. If there's a small batch regional of, say, a brown ale that I love, and Big Beer buys it up and starts subbing in cereal grains, I will wager dollars to donuts that consumers (well, maybe the discerning ones (?)) will notice the difference and the quality will have been compromised. If nothing else, it's the (apologies for using this term (because I hate it)) mouth feel will be off.

 

The "5 point plan" is pure FUD.  It's not a new argument and its based on this merger deal.  So now SAB Miller ABinbev will be able to crush the craft market?  Nothing in that merger does ANYTHING to the craft market that could not have already been done.

 

There are changes in the craft marketplace to help offset the perceived impacts of the macro breweries coming into the market.  Some are obvious and others are less so.  I saw a reference to Kim Jordan (New Belgium owner) earlier today but I did not pull the article down.  The gist was talking of partnerships and regional craft brewers using extra capacity to brew "partner" brands to reduce distribution costs and turn out more volume without building out. In addition, they could co-op into pricing agreements that allow them to compete at the price level, not just the quality level.

 

I'm not sure what the 5 point plan is. And I had to look up FUD. I tend to agree with you that the role of craft with the Big Beer entities is going to do more good than harm. There will be instances, though, where authenticity and awesomeness get lost in the sauce (or the wort boil). 

 

I JUST talked to a brewer in the area about that recently. What hops and malts they can get their hands on change a lot, especially for the small guys. Also, different harvests mean different crops, even from the same field.

 

According to the brewer, the key is getting your beer to change so slowly and subtly that people don't notice. Thats where it becomes both an art and a science: not just in making a good beer, but making a good beer that is consistently a good beer, and also within a range of flavors that people will recognize as being the  "same" beer.

 

Good insight on a point that I sort of glossed over. 

I've heard nothing but great things about CBW and I still haven't been there. Hearing about the financial stuff makes me feel great shame.

 

Well, don't feel too badly. I think they're one of those joints that can be brewing around the clock and have a waiting list of accounts to fill (that they can't fill), but they still can't make enough traction to throw the money needed to be a truly profitable venture. It's scale, really. I think they need someone to lend them a bunch of money on favourable terms.

 

Speaking of beer has anyone had anything from Funky Buddha Brewing out of, Florida I think?

 

No. But Florida is getting work DONE in the craft beer world right now.

 

And what's that brew out of Georgia I like so much - Sweetwater? Something called a Hop Hash? Delicious.

[LGR4GM]

 

No. But Florida is getting work DONE in the craft beer world right now.

 

And what's that brew out of Georgia I like so much - Sweetwater? Something called a Hop Hash? Delicious.

Yea, Sweetwater is the big one out of ATL. Hop Hash is a double or imperial IPA. I haven't had it yet just because but I should check it out.

[sabills]

Well, don't feel too badly. I think they're one of those joints that can be brewing around the clock and have a waiting list of accounts to fill (that they can't fill), but they still can't make enough traction to throw the money needed to be a truly profitable venture. It's scale, really. I think they need someone to lend them a bunch of money on favourable terms.

 

They're about to grow their business fairly quickly; they're acquiring another place on the West Side thats probably at 3 times what they have now. That should help their scale. 

 

http://www.communitybeerworks.com/2015/07/lets-talk-about-our-new-location/

 

Thats an old one, but things are progressing:

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/news/2016/03/29/expansion-brewing-for-community-beer-works.html

 

 

TL;DR: They're currently at around 600 barrels a year, with that expansion they'd be up to about 3500 barrels, with possibilities of expanding at that location to over 15,000 barrels.

Edited April 15, 2016 by sabills

[That Aud Smell]

They're about to grow their business fairly quickly; they're acquiring another place on the West Side thats probably at 3 times what they have now. That should help their scale. 

 

http://www.communitybeerworks.com/2015/07/lets-talk-about-our-new-location/

 

Thats an old one, but things are progressing:

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/news/2016/03/29/expansion-brewing-for-community-beer-works.html

 

 

TL;DR: They're currently at around 600 barrels a year, with that expansion they'd be up to about 3500 barrels, with possibilities of expanding at that location to over 15,000 barrels.

 

Well, kiss my grits. I guess they got that loan referred to above! I hope they take off like they're being launched by a rocket.

 

It's gotta be concerning, though, that Shatzel (the Blue Monk guy) hired away their (CBW's) head brewer. 

[LGR4GM]

I just found out I am probably going to Resurgence brewery in the near future. Any advice from the Buffalo crew on what to get?

[That Aud Smell]

I just found out I am probably going to Resurgence brewery in the near future. Any advice from the Buffalo crew on what to get?

 

Depends on what they have on tap. Their Citra Mosaic IPA is good, as is their Belgian IPA. I also like their 646 Smash. Yet another IPA.

 

If you're looking for something lighter, and fairly nerdy, I think they do a helluva job with their pilsner. Can't recall its name.

 

I have not taken a cotton to their sponge candy stout. It's a bomb ABV (they serve it in smaller portions), but it's too sweet for me.

[sabills]

Well, kiss my grits. I guess they got that loan referred to above! I hope they take off like they're being launched by a rocket.

 

It's gotta be concerning, though, that Shatzel (the Blue Monk guy) hired away their (CBW's) head brewer. 

Luckily they kinda had a guy waiting in the wings to take over. Their new head brewer had been brewing their stuff on his own for a year as the brewer for Hydraulic Hearth. And Ethan Cox, who's the main owner, still oversees most of that stuff. A little concerning, but I'm not going to worry until I have more reason to.

 

I just found out I am probably going to Resurgence brewery in the near future. Any advice from the Buffalo crew on what to get?

Their standard "Resurgence IPA" has gotten better, I prefer "Road Trip" if they have it. My wifes favorite beer of theirs, and also near the top for me, is their "Blood Orange Saison". They also have new stuff almost every time I go, which is often, so try some of the smaller batch stuff, too.

[Sabel79]

 

The "5 point plan" is pure FUD.  It's not a new argument and its based on this merger deal.  So now SAB Miller ABinbev will be able to crush the craft market?  Nothing in that merger does ANYTHING to the craft market that could not have already been done.

 

 

As to the bolded, I'd give you this nice little puff piece: http://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/ct-anheuser-busch-craft-beer-20160412-story.html

 

The last question, asked to DB's erstwhile owner with his ABinbev handler there was:

 

Q: In your opinion, are we past needing a thing that’s called “craft beer?” Is there no need to differentiate anymore?

Crandall: Absolutely, that’s true. There’s a great need for the Brewers Association to support craft breweries, and they’ve done an amazing job — they’re very skilled at what they do. But there should be some acknowledgment that maybe there’s different levels in the Brewer’s Association. Maybe there’s a tier of different sizes of breweries. But I believe in the end, it should all be about the beer in the glass.

 

I buy part of that statement, no points for guessing which part...

[LGR4GM]

okay, thanks guys! I am excited to go. Some QT with the GF at a BWY (brewery)

[That Aud Smell]

Luckily they kinda had a guy waiting in the wings to take over. Their new head brewer had been brewing their stuff on his own for a year as the brewer for Hydraulic Hearth. And Ethan Cox, who's the main owner, still oversees most of that stuff. A little concerning, but I'm not going to worry until I have more reason to.

 

Ahh - good, then. I had not thought of that - that they have been brewing over at the Zemsky kid's place. I've met Ethan at beer events. I got the sense he was more of a hobbyist brewer and big picture guy - but not someone who could actually DO commercial-level brewing without someone skilled in the art.

 

Anyway: Onward!

[darksabre]

On the A-B distributor type: I was probably unclear. The people I know are foot solider beer sales types. They live in the Chicago area. They are what I'd call hipsters - beards, tattoos, etc. They're personally friendly with people who work in the brew house. Those folks are telling tales - griping a bit. Take it with a grain of salt, sure. But it only makes sense, really.

 

Interesting point on ST IPA. This is something I had not really considered, even while knowing that it is getting harder and harder for brewers to get the same stuff at their delivery bays week in and week out. This calls to mind the fact that, much more recently, I'd been pleased to notice a change for the better in the ST IPA. This bears further research!  :beer:

 

 

This is a fair point, as I indicated above. 

 

 

I'll tend to disagree here. If there's a small batch regional of, say, a brown ale that I love, and Big Beer buys it up and starts subbing in cereal grains, I will wager dollars to donuts that consumers (well, maybe the discerning ones (?)) will notice the difference and the quality will have been compromised. If nothing else, it's the (apologies for using this term (because I hate it)) mouth feel will be off.

 

 

I'm not sure what the 5 point plan is. And I had to look up FUD. I tend to agree with you that the role of craft with the Big Beer entities is going to do more good than harm. There will be instances, though, where authenticity and awesomeness get lost in the sauce (or the wort boil). 

 

 

Good insight on a point that I sort of glossed over. 

 

Well, don't feel too badly. I think they're one of those joints that can be brewing around the clock and have a waiting list of accounts to fill (that they can't fill), but they still can't make enough traction to throw the money needed to be a truly profitable venture. It's scale, really. I think they need someone to lend them a bunch of money on favourable terms.

 

 

No. But Florida is getting work DONE in the craft beer world right now.

 

And what's that brew out of Georgia I like so much - Sweetwater? Something called a Hop Hash? Delicious.

I had Sweetwater on a layover at the ATL airport back in 2010 and I tell everyone about it whenever I get on an airplane. There's a lil sandwich place in the airport and it's the place to go for a bite and a beer. 

 

Someday I'll have Sweetwater and not be at the airport. 

[That Aud Smell]

I believe it's non-pasteurized. Makes distribution tricky.

[LTS]

As to the bolded, I'd give you this nice little puff piece: http://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/ct-anheuser-busch-craft-beer-20160412-story.html

 

The last question, asked to DB's erstwhile owner with his ABinbev handler there was:

 

Q: In your opinion, are we past needing a thing that’s called “craft beer?” Is there no need to differentiate anymore?

Crandall: Absolutely, that’s true. There’s a great need for the Brewers Association to support craft breweries, and they’ve done an amazing job — they’re very skilled at what they do. But there should be some acknowledgment that maybe there’s different levels in the Brewer’s Association. Maybe there’s a tier of different sizes of breweries. But I believe in the end, it should all be about the beer in the glass.

 

I buy part of that statement, no points for guessing which part...

 

Honestly... I completely dislike hearing the term craft beer anymore.  I hear it all the time on commercials and it drives me up a wall.  The lines will be blurred, just like anything else.  Is Boston Beer Co. a craft brewer?  Well, in order to not undermine their message the Brewer's Associate rewrote the barrel limit to keep Sam Adams in the mix.  Why?  Because their market growth numbers would have declined significantly losing the 2 million bbls they produced.

 

Look at the supermarket.  There are handmade breads and artisan breads and they are all made the same exact way as the regular breads.  The terms are meaningless.

 

 

On the A-B distributor type: I was probably unclear. The people I know are foot solider beer sales types. They live in the Chicago area. They are what I'd call hipsters - beards, tattoos, etc. They're personally friendly with people who work in the brew house. Those folks are telling tales - griping a bit. Take it with a grain of salt, sure. But it only makes sense, really.

 

Interesting point on ST IPA. This is something I had not really considered, even while knowing that it is getting harder and harder for brewers to get the same stuff at their delivery bays week in and week out. This calls to mind the fact that, much more recently, I'd been pleased to notice a change for the better in the ST IPA. This bears further research!  :beer:

 

 

This is a fair point, as I indicated above. 

 

 

I'll tend to disagree here. If there's a small batch regional of, say, a brown ale that I love, and Big Beer buys it up and starts subbing in cereal grains, I will wager dollars to donuts that consumers (well, maybe the discerning ones (?)) will notice the difference and the quality will have been compromised. If nothing else, it's the (apologies for using this term (because I hate it)) mouth feel will be off.

 

 

I'm not sure what the 5 point plan is. And I had to look up FUD. I tend to agree with you that the role of craft with the Big Beer entities is going to do more good than harm. There will be instances, though, where authenticity and awesomeness get lost in the sauce (or the wort boil). 

 

 

Good insight on a point that I sort of glossed over. 

 

Well, don't feel too badly. I think they're one of those joints that can be brewing around the clock and have a waiting list of accounts to fill (that they can't fill), but they still can't make enough traction to throw the money needed to be a truly profitable venture. It's scale, really. I think they need someone to lend them a bunch of money on favourable terms.

 

 

No. But Florida is getting work DONE in the craft beer world right now.

 

And what's that brew out of Georgia I like so much - Sweetwater? Something called a Hop Hash? Delicious.

 

Lots to talk about here.  I want to specifically address "mouth feel".  You can offset a thinning of the body in many ways. The assumption here is that a big brewer is going to come in and ruin the beer. They aren't going to just make wholesale changes however.  What they will do, assuming the economics of the beer make sense, is to slowly integrate the lesser quality grains so the perception of change is mitigated. After that, it's really a question of whether people like the "revised" recipe or not.  If they do then really, what harm was there?  People still like it.  There are beers I used to like that I won't drink anymore. My tastes have changed.

 

A few years back Simcoe was the hop du jour.  The worst part of Simcoe is that its a registered hop and so only comes from one place.  Great marketing and the Yakima company that "created" it did very well.  The hops were in HUGE demand and people loved it.  The problem was no supply so brewer's were locking in long contracts on the hops just to be able to provide that profile. Other brewers who were left out or could not afford the contracted rates had to make immediate changes to their hop profiles.  Of course other hop growers were also looking for hop varieties that would mimic Simcoe.  Beer recipes changed overnight and in many cases people still didn't know.

 

Year over year every beer is different.  It has to be. The chemistry that goes into trying to replicate a recipe perfectly would be so time consuming that it would render a beer too expensive.  It might not even be achievable.  Just balancing the Alpha Acids in a hop release is hard.  There's the betas, the grain bill changes, etc. 

[That Aud Smell]

Look at the supermarket.  There are handmade breads and artisan breads and they are all made the same exact way as the regular breads.  The terms are meaningless.

 

So, that brick loaf of wheat bread from the groovy gals at Breadhive is made the same exact way as that wheat-flour-flecked loaf of air that I usually use to make my daily sandwich? I guess maybe I'm not clear on what is meant by "same exact way."

 

Btw, there are plenty of people in the "craft beer" scene who've all but said that the designation is on its way out - that soon it'll just be back to "beer."

 

 

I want to specifically address "mouth feel".  You can offset a thinning of the body in many ways. The assumption here is that a big brewer is going to come in and ruin the beer. They aren't going to just make wholesale changes however.  What they will do, assuming the economics of the beer make sense, is to slowly integrate the lesser quality grains so the perception of change is mitigated. After that, it's really a question of whether people like the "revised" recipe or not. 

 

I mean no disrespect, but: Blechk. A thusly modified beer may actually gain market share, I suppose. I don't imagine I'll be among those drinking it, though.

 

A few years back Simcoe was the hop du jour.  The worst part of Simcoe is that its a registered hop and so only comes from one place.  Great marketing and the Yakima company that "created" it did very well.  The hops were in HUGE demand and people loved it.  The problem was no supply so brewer's were locking in long contracts on the hops just to be able to provide that profile. Other brewers who were left out or could not afford the contracted rates had to make immediate changes to their hop profiles.  Of course other hop growers were also looking for hop varieties that would mimic Simcoe.  Beer recipes changed overnight and in many cases people still didn't know.

 

Year over year every beer is different.  It has to be. The chemistry that goes into trying to replicate a recipe perfectly would be so time consuming that it would render a beer too expensive.  It might not even be achievable.  Just balancing the Alpha Acids in a hop release is hard.  There's the betas, the grain bill changes, etc. 

 

Good points here. Sort of fascinating, really.

[ubkev]

Made root beer floats the other night with Not Your Father's Root Beer. They were good.

[That Aud Smell]

Made root beer floats the other night with Not Your Father's Root Beer. They were good.

 

WANT.

[ubkev]

WANT.

It all started at Red Robin. I went in to get a Royal Red Robin burger (the one with bacon and a sunny side up egg on it.... So damn good!)

And I saw that beer on the menu and I vaguely remembered it being mentioned here. So I tried it, my lady had a sip and she made me go buy a sixer so we could make root beer floats when we got home. Also so damn good.

[Claude_Verret]

I always thought of CBW as a nanobrewery operation, it's very difficult for a nano to realize much of a profit at all. In fact, most nanos start only to build a brand until they can get into a position where they can expand.

[That Aud Smell]

I always thought of CBW as a nanobrewery operation, it's very difficult for a nano to realize much of a profit at all. In fact, most nanos start only to build a brand until they can get into a position where they can expand.

 

I think they are a nano. And I think you're right on whether a nano can realize a meaningful profit.

[LTS]

So, that brick loaf of wheat bread from the groovy gals at Breadhive is made the same exact way as that wheat-flour-flecked loaf of air that I usually use to make my daily sandwich? I guess maybe I'm not clear on what is meant by "same exact way."

 

Btw, there are plenty of people in the "craft beer" scene who've all but said that the designation is on its way out - that soon it'll just be back to "beer."

 

 

 

I mean no disrespect, but: Blechk. A thusly modified beer may actually gain market share, I suppose. I don't imagine I'll be among those drinking it, though.

 

 

Good points here. Sort of fascinating, really.

 

In response to the underlined.  I would guarantee its happened to you.  I mean I know that's rather absolute but I know it's happened to me and I feel like I have a pretty good take on these things.

 

For what it's worth it goes both ways as well.  I can tell you a story of two beers in Rochester.  One is an IPA and one is a Scotch Ale.

 

The IPA started out strong.  It used some "registered" hops and it really gained a following.  The same beer today is made with completely different hops and the grain bill has changed.  It has happened over the past 7 years and many people I know still don't think anything is different about it.

 

The Scotch Ale is even more intriguing.  It started out as one of my favorite beers.  Over the past 10-12 years it had generally declined (in my opinion).  I stopped drinking it.  I found out that the grain bill had changed significantly including the supplier of the malts.  People still drinking it, happy as clams.  The beer is back now.  The grain bill has reverted to close what was the original bill, some process changes occurred, and most importantly they changed suppliers again and the beer is solid.

 

But sadly, there is another beer, a porter, that I was holding onto.  I loved the beer until the one day the change was made and I finally walked away from it.  I came to find out the recipe had been altered 6 times in the prior 5 years and I was none the wiser until the 6th alteration.  Sigh.  (I still don't drink that beer).

[That Aud Smell]

In response to the underlined.  I would guarantee its happened to you. 

 

 

 

For what it's worth it goes both ways as well.  I can tell you a story of two beers in Rochester.  One is an IPA and one is a Scotch Ale.

 

The IPA started out strong.  It used some "registered" hops and it really gained a following.  The same beer today is made with completely different hops and the grain bill has changed.  It has happened over the past 7 years and many people I know still don't think anything is different about it.

 

The Scotch Ale is even more intriguing.  It started out as one of my favorite beers.  Over the past 10-12 years it had generally declined (in my opinion).  I stopped drinking it.  I found out that the grain bill had changed significantly including the supplier of the malts.  People still drinking it, happy as clams.  The beer is back now.  The grain bill has reverted to close what was the original bill, some process changes occurred, and most importantly they changed suppliers again and the beer is solid.

 

But sadly, there is another beer, a porter, that I was holding onto.  I loved the beer until the one day the change was made and I finally walked away from it.  I came to find out the recipe had been altered 6 times in the prior 5 years and I was none the wiser until the 6th alteration.  Sigh.  (I still don't drink that beer).

 

Well, kiss my grits. Huh. That is more information than I have, to be sure. I guess this bit is the key. And, in my experience, I notice the ones that don't work out and, as a result, infer that changing up the BoM for the brews is always fatal to quality, and my loyalty. And that creates a huge bias.

 

Hmm.

 

Well. I'll still be keeping a watchful eye on micro houses that are acquired by the macro holdings. And, of course, my expectation that quality will diminish will probably convince me that it has.

 

I need a nap. Or a beer. A GOOD ONE.

[Brawndo]

Had Innis&Gunn Scotch Oak Ale last week in Disney World. Fantastic stuff.