james duncan Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 Ok. Then I guess, for those who think a captain should be selected and not elected, the next question is, who on the team is most like LaFontaine? EDIT: Make no mistake, I realize that the team doesn't have a player with his numbers. I mean who is most like him, not who is like him. Honestly? I think time will show it to be Gerbe. That said, right now, Vanek. I think he has matured into the role very well. Never complains. Takes a beating in front of the net and never shys away from blame.
Weave Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 Eleven, you asked the question, I am curious as to what your thoughts are re: what makes a good captain and who best fits that on our roster.
Weave Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 I just did a comparison of Sabres playoff seasons to captains. Playoff success has been sketchy over the course of their history. I was curious as to who the captains were during our successful playoff years. '75 Cup Finals -Shoenfeld '80 lost in 3rd round, game 6 -Gare '93 lost in 2nd rd after 10 years of 1st rd loses -LaFontaine '98 lost in Conf finals, game 6 -Peca '99 lost in SC finals, game 6 -Peca '06 lost in Conf finals, game 7 -Drury/Briere '07 lost in Conf finals, game 6 -Drury/Briere The rest of the playoff record is rd 1 or rd 2 losses, or no appearance. Correlation between having the right captain and having playoff success? I think there is an arguement for this.
Eleven Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 Eleven, you asked the question, I am curious as to what your thoughts are re: what makes a good captain and who best fits that on our roster. Well, one of the reasons I didn't answer my own question is because I'm not sure who our best was, either. (Another reason is I didn't want to color the responses). I suspect that the two best were Schoenfeld (but I was a lil' guym back then) and Peca. I think the guy most like Schoeny is Myers (Weber might be closer in attitude, but Myers is much closer in talent and close enough in attitude)--and I note that Schoenfeld became captain his second full season in the league. (He was injured for most of '73-'74.) I don't know that the team has anyone like Peca right now. I would say that Vanek is most like LaFontaine. But I've always been a proponent of letting the team elect the captain. They always will elect someone whom they respect, and--read on--I think that's the most important thing. As to your question--who makes a good captain on a team that's not too young*--I see it like this: who are the guys going to play for? Who is going to be the person that inspires everyone to do his best? It's not always the most talented player. It's also not always the most experienced player. It's the guy who the team doesn't want to let down, not only because they fear what he'll say in the dressing room, but also because they would be ashamed to let him down. I always saw Danny Briere as that guy. On this team, aside from the very obvious Ryan Miller, who is not eligible, I see Thomas Vanek (or Mike Grier, if he returns) as that guy. I don't think it's Myers yet; he's still in that phase of earning respect from the rest of the team, even if he is deservedly earning it quickly. *This is important, because with a young team, I think experience is most important. That's one of the reasons I didn't hate Rivet as a captain even though his age made him frustrating as a player. But this team isn't a bunch of kids who just lost their leaders anymore.
Eleven Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 I just did a comparison of Sabres playoff seasons to captains. Playoff success has been sketchy over the course of their history. I was curious as to who the captains were during our successful playoff years. '75 Cup Finals -Shoenfeld '80 lost in 3rd round, game 6 -Gare '93 lost in 2nd rd after 10 years of 1st rd loses -LaFontaine '98 lost in Conf finals, game 6 -Peca '99 lost in SC finals, game 6 -Peca '06 lost in Conf finals, game 7 -Drury/Briere '07 lost in Conf finals, game 6 -Drury/Briere The rest of the playoff record is rd 1 or rd 2 losses, or no appearance. Correlation between having the right captain and having playoff success? I think there is an arguement for this. There is a HUGE argument for this.
Weave Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 As to your question--who makes a good captain on a team that's not too young*--I see it like this: who are the guys going to play for? Who is going to be the person that inspires everyone to do his best? It's not always the most talented player. It's also not always the most experienced player. It's the guy who the team doesn't want to let down, not only because they fear what he'll say in the dressing room, but also because they would be ashamed to let him down. See, I'm not sure that guy exsists on this team yet. I do expect that Myers will eventually be that guy though.
dEnnis the Menace Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 See, I'm not sure that guy exsists on this team yet. I do expect that Myers will eventually be that guy though. I think I have to agree with this. I just don't think we have that person right now.
Eleven Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 See, I'm not sure that guy exsists on this team yet. I do expect that Myers will eventually be that guy though. You may very well be right (again, other than Miller). I'd say Vanek is the closest because he puts everything he has into the game.
dudacek Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 Very intriguing post Weave. There is no Peca or Schoenfeld on this team. Myers will be captain, but he is not yet established enough to stare down Roy or anyone else over 25 and tell him to get his ass in gear. Ennis, Sekera, Weber, Kaleta, and to a lesser extent Stafford are still kids in the dressing room heirarchy. Gerbe? C'mon he's a pup with a great work ethic but no track record at all. Hecht and Gaustad are well-respected but not good enough. McCormick is the same but worse Leopold, Boyes, and Leino are complementary vets, not leaders, and are outsiders to boot Erhoff will play a big role and Regher is the right personality, but neither has skated a shift in Buffalo. There are only three players who have been around long enough and are important enough to be considered. Roy — He's our number one centre, plays in all situation and produces. By role, he is definitely a leader on this team. I've seen too much selfishness and not enough accountability from him to call him a good leader. He seemed to grow up a bit last year. If Lindy and his teammates have seen a new maturity in his game, then this might be worth a try. Players do grow up. It's not something I am particularly comfortable with, however because I'm not sure he has the full respect of his teammates. Pominville — He has been the best leader amongst the core. Too many fans confuse fire with commitment. Poms is not fiery but he is a rock. He is incredibly smart and responsible in both ends. You can depend on him to come to play every night and his teammates seem to respect him. He is not, however, a personality or a talent capable of galvanizing a team. He is a safe pick, but would be a caretaker at best. Vanek — He is our biggest talent and our go-to guy when a goal is needed. He sacrifices his body and badly wants to win. His biggest problem has been the fact he gets down on himself too much. Teams mirror their captain. Is a moping or frustrated player the captain we want? But, like Roy, I saw more maturity with Thomas last year. For the first time, I saw a guy that teammates could rally behind. Like Roy, this would be a case of giving someone the C hoping they grow into it. Vanek appears a safer bet than Roy however. Bottom line: the team does not have an obvious captain. Pominville is probably the "best" candidate at this point. But I waffle between taking a chance with Vanek, or a no captain/rotating captains. A Schoenfeld- or Peca-level leader ain't going to happen until Myers matures.
shrader Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 A question to anyone who mentioned Drury: How can he be one of the best if he was only splitting the duties with Briere? I think you have to list the combination and not the individuals.
Taro T Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 See, I'm not sure that guy exsists on this team yet. I do expect that Myers will eventually be that guy though. I'd agree w/ this and w/ your earlier post about him not being ready for that role now. Though I've hated the rotating captaincy in the past, and still am not a fan of it, I wouldn't be surprised to see LR go that route again. Though this time not because there aren't any leaders on the team, just because I'm not certain that the real leader is quite ready to step up at this point. I'd expect that guy to be either Vanek or Myers. If Lindy thinks it's going to be Vanek, then I'd expect him to get the 'C' this year. I don't think it would be fair to Regehr (or either of the other 2 new guys for that matter) to put the 'C' on his chest. Not sure it was fair to do it to Rivet, but they really didn't have any choice at the time, nor did they have any other (good) options on the immediate horizon. I guy I could see them going off the board with is Leopold. He's a veteran on what hopefully will be the strongest unit of the team and he's been here for a season and won't be trying to learn everybody's name as he's trying to lead them. Don't know that he's got the 'captain's mentality,' but if they don't rotate the 'C' and they don't think Vanek & Myers are ready, I'd fully expect Jochen to get the 'C.' The thought of Leopold wearing it is more intriguing to me than seeing Jochen wear it. I don't like the idea of giving it to Roy or Poms as I just don't see the Peca sort of leadership that a great captain requires, and I wouldn't give it to Goose for the same reason they never gave it to Ray - if a 4th liner is your captain, you've got issues. And to me, the other young guys are just too young. Considering I think this is a 'development' year for them, as I think they are going to be learning how to win, I wouldn't be upset if they pulled a Vancouver and gave Miller the 'non-game' captaincy w/ the stipulation that it will only be for 2 years tops and he's just keeping the seat warm until Myers, or somebody else, is ready for it. As to 11's question about the best captain, I'd have to think about it some more but I'd expect I'd probably go w/ Peca w/ Schoeny and LaLa close behind. If there was just a single captain in the Drury/Briere era, I'd possibly go w/ the 1 that won that 'battle' but I can't give it to a co-captain. I can't give it to Gare because though I disagreed w/ a lot of Bowman's personnel decisions, I can't get over Bowman considering Gare to be expendable for hockey reasons. (Peca and LaLa going away had NOTHING to do w/ hockey.) And I always liked Barnes as captain. I think people don't give him enough credit for his leadership. Yeah, things were ugly during his reign, but probably not as ugly on the ice as they should have been. Good thing I've told my clients I'll be 'out of the office' next week, 'cause if I'm rambling this much here, I'd hate to see where I'd be by the end of next week. ;)
nfreeman Posted July 23, 2011 Report Posted July 23, 2011 I just did a comparison of Sabres playoff seasons to captains. Playoff success has been sketchy over the course of their history. I was curious as to who the captains were during our successful playoff years. '75 Cup Finals -Shoenfeld '80 lost in 3rd round, game 6 -Gare '93 lost in 2nd rd after 10 years of 1st rd loses -LaFontaine '98 lost in Conf finals, game 6 -Peca '99 lost in SC finals, game 6 -Peca '06 lost in Conf finals, game 7 -Drury/Briere '07 lost in Conf finals, game 6 -Drury/Briere The rest of the playoff record is rd 1 or rd 2 losses, or no appearance. Correlation between having the right captain and having playoff success? I think there is an arguement for this. Well, one of the reasons I didn't answer my own question is because I'm not sure who our best was, either. (Another reason is I didn't want to color the responses). I suspect that the two best were Schoenfeld (but I was a lil' guym back then) and Peca. I think the guy most like Schoeny is Myers (Weber might be closer in attitude, but Myers is much closer in talent and close enough in attitude)--and I note that Schoenfeld became captain his second full season in the league. (He was injured for most of '73-'74.) I don't know that the team has anyone like Peca right now. I would say that Vanek is most like LaFontaine. But I've always been a proponent of letting the team elect the captain. They always will elect someone whom they respect, and--read on--I think that's the most important thing. As to your question--who makes a good captain on a team that's not too young*--I see it like this: who are the guys going to play for? Who is going to be the person that inspires everyone to do his best? It's not always the most talented player. It's also not always the most experienced player. It's the guy who the team doesn't want to let down, not only because they fear what he'll say in the dressing room, but also because they would be ashamed to let him down. I always saw Danny Briere as that guy. On this team, aside from the very obvious Ryan Miller, who is not eligible, I see Thomas Vanek (or Mike Grier, if he returns) as that guy. I don't think it's Myers yet; he's still in that phase of earning respect from the rest of the team, even if he is deservedly earning it quickly. *This is important, because with a young team, I think experience is most important. That's one of the reasons I didn't hate Rivet as a captain even though his age made him frustrating as a player. But this team isn't a bunch of kids who just lost their leaders anymore. Very intriguing post Weave. There is no Peca or Schoenfeld on this team. Myers will be captain, but he is not yet established enough to stare down Roy or anyone else over 25 and tell him to get his ass in gear. Ennis, Sekera, Weber, Kaleta, and to a lesser extent Stafford are still kids in the dressing room heirarchy. Gerbe? C'mon he's a pup with a great work ethic but no track record at all. Hecht and Gaustad are well-respected but not good enough. McCormick is the same but worse Leopold, Boyes, and Leino are complementary vets, not leaders, and are outsiders to boot Erhoff will play a big role and Regher is the right personality, but neither has skated a shift in Buffalo. There are only three players who have been around long enough and are important enough to be considered. Roy — He's our number one centre, plays in all situation and produces. By role, he is definitely a leader on this team. I've seen too much selfishness and not enough accountability from him to call him a good leader. He seemed to grow up a bit last year. If Lindy and his teammates have seen a new maturity in his game, then this might be worth a try. Players do grow up. It's not something I am particularly comfortable with, however because I'm not sure he has the full respect of his teammates. Pominville — He has been the best leader amongst the core. Too many fans confuse fire with commitment. Poms is not fiery but he is a rock. He is incredibly smart and responsible in both ends. You can depend on him to come to play every night and his teammates seem to respect him. He is not, however, a personality or a talent capable of galvanizing a team. He is a safe pick, but would be a caretaker at best. Vanek — He is our biggest talent and our go-to guy when a goal is needed. He sacrifices his body and badly wants to win. His biggest problem has been the fact he gets down on himself too much. Teams mirror their captain. Is a moping or frustrated player the captain we want? But, like Roy, I saw more maturity with Thomas last year. For the first time, I saw a guy that teammates could rally behind. Like Roy, this would be a case of giving someone the C hoping they grow into it. Vanek appears a safer bet than Roy however. Bottom line: the team does not have an obvious captain. Pominville is probably the "best" candidate at this point. But I waffle between taking a chance with Vanek, or a no captain/rotating captains. A Schoenfeld- or Peca-level leader ain't going to happen until Myers matures. These are 3 outstanding posts. This is what is going to tide me over until October. Great work boys.
deluca67 Posted July 23, 2011 Report Posted July 23, 2011 Very intriguing post Weave. There is no Peca or Schoenfeld on this team. Myers will be captain, but he is not yet established enough to stare down Roy or anyone else over 25 and tell him to get his ass in gear. Ennis, Sekera, Weber, Kaleta, and to a lesser extent Stafford are still kids in the dressing room heirarchy. Gerbe? C'mon he's a pup with a great work ethic but no track record at all. Hecht and Gaustad are well-respected but not good enough. McCormick is the same but worse Leopold, Boyes, and Leino are complementary vets, not leaders, and are outsiders to boot Erhoff will play a big role and Regher is the right personality, but neither has skated a shift in Buffalo. There are only three players who have been around long enough and are important enough to be considered. Roy — He's our number one centre, plays in all situation and produces. By role, he is definitely a leader on this team. I've seen too much selfishness and not enough accountability from him to call him a good leader. He seemed to grow up a bit last year. If Lindy and his teammates have seen a new maturity in his game, then this might be worth a try. Players do grow up. It's not something I am particularly comfortable with, however because I'm not sure he has the full respect of his teammates. Pominville — He has been the best leader amongst the core. Too many fans confuse fire with commitment. Poms is not fiery but he is a rock. He is incredibly smart and responsible in both ends. You can depend on him to come to play every night and his teammates seem to respect him. He is not, however, a personality or a talent capable of galvanizing a team. He is a safe pick, but would be a caretaker at best. Vanek — He is our biggest talent and our go-to guy when a goal is needed. He sacrifices his body and badly wants to win. His biggest problem has been the fact he gets down on himself too much. Teams mirror their captain. Is a moping or frustrated player the captain we want? But, like Roy, I saw more maturity with Thomas last year. For the first time, I saw a guy that teammates could rally behind. Like Roy, this would be a case of giving someone the C hoping they grow into it. Vanek appears a safer bet than Roy however. Bottom line: the team does not have an obvious captain. Pominville is probably the "best" candidate at this point. But I waffle between taking a chance with Vanek, or a no captain/rotating captains. A Schoenfeld- or Peca-level leader ain't going to happen until Myers matures. Pominville? When the Sabres signed and handed over the 'C' to Craig Rivet I thought it was a huge mistake. Pominville never player as well as he did for the short time he wore the 'C'. I thought he should have been given it then. His game since that point hasn't warranted consideration. I don't know if giving the 'C' to a complete stranger had an adverse effect on Pominville. I do believe if he had been given the 'C' his current contract would make him look underpaid. I am an old school believer in that the 'C' is earned. I also believe there is that rare occasion where the 'C' can be used to make the player. IMO, the Sabres missed a opportunity to create a Captain by not giving Pominville the 'C'. I don't think giving him the 'C' now would have the desired results. Vanek? I see how it can be justified. Roy? My last visions of Roy in a meaningful situation was Roy as a complete no-show against the Bruins. I don't consider myself a "ship Roy out at any cost" fan. I would not be comfortable seeing his immaturity on the ice rewarded with the 'C'. He has the talent, I just want to see a mature Roy on the ice for a season or two before I would consider Roy a viable candidate for the 'C'.
nfreeman Posted July 23, 2011 Report Posted July 23, 2011 Pominville? When the Sabres signed and handed over the 'C' to Craig Rivet I thought it was a huge mistake. Pominville never player as well as he did for the short time he wore the 'C'. I thought he should have been given it then. His game since that point hasn't warranted consideration. I don't know if giving the 'C' to a complete stranger had an adverse effect on Pominville. I do believe if he had been given the 'C' his current contract would make him look underpaid. I am an old school believer in that the 'C' is earned. I also believe there is that rare occasion where the 'C' can be used to make the player. IMO, the Sabres missed a opportunity to create a Captain by not giving Pominville the 'C'. I don't think giving him the 'C' now would have the desired results. Vanek? I see how it can be justified. Roy? My last visions of Roy in a meaningful situation was Roy as a complete no-show against the Bruins. I don't consider myself a "ship Roy out at any cost" fan. I would not be comfortable seeing his immaturity on the ice rewarded with the 'C'. He has the talent, I just want to see a mature Roy on the ice for a season or two before I would consider Roy a viable candidate for the 'C'. I agree on Roy but not on Pommer. He doesn't have enough game or enough force to be a difference-maker in the playoffs.
DumbPuck Posted July 23, 2011 Report Posted July 23, 2011 I think I have to agree with this. I just don't think we have that person right now. Can owners be team captains? ;-)
shrader Posted July 23, 2011 Report Posted July 23, 2011 Roy? My last visions of Roy in a meaningful situation was Roy as a complete no-show against the Bruins. I don't consider myself a "ship Roy out at any cost" fan. I would not be comfortable seeing his immaturity on the ice rewarded with the 'C'. He has the talent, I just want to see a mature Roy on the ice for a season or two before I would consider Roy a viable candidate for the 'C'. I'm not saying I disagree, but what about Roy coming back on one leg against Philly when he wasn't yet ready? The team was low on hope and needed any hope they could get. It has to mean something.
nfreeman Posted July 23, 2011 Report Posted July 23, 2011 I'm not saying I disagree, but what about Roy coming back on one leg against Philly when he wasn't yet ready? The team was low on hope and needed any hope they could get. It has to mean something. Certainly it was a positive move for him to come back for that game -- but look how the team played in that game -- about as badly as they played with him in the lineup at the start of the season. Very likely a coincidence, but there is just nothing whatsoever to point to as far as evidence that the team responds well to his "leadership."
shrader Posted July 24, 2011 Report Posted July 24, 2011 Certainly it was a positive move for him to come back for that game -- but look how the team played in that game -- about as badly as they played with him in the lineup at the start of the season. Very likely a coincidence, but there is just nothing whatsoever to point to as far as evidence that the team responds well to his "leadership." I know you're not trying to pin that game on him. But anyway, it was a gutsy move and anyone on the team who would have thought otherwise goes right into that no heart column that so many around here have been complaining about.
deluca67 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Posted July 24, 2011 I know you're not trying to pin that game on him. But anyway, it was a gutsy move and anyone on the team who would have thought otherwise goes right into that no heart column that so many around here have been complaining about. Does Roy get pegged with "no heart" or is immaturity the greater issue for many? No one knows how healthy Roy was for game seven. As nfreeman stated his return was part of one of the most lackluster performances the team had last season. It was no Willis Reed moment. I don't think anyone challenges Roy's talent. He is capable of being a asset at both ends of the ice. I want to see the Roy that started last season continue into this season. If he can play the way he did early last season I can imagine many "Roy or Myers for Captain" threads next season.
BetweenThePipes00 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Posted July 24, 2011 I seem to remember when Roy first came out of junior his heart and leadership were considered his best assets ... maybe I am mis-remembering, but I recall a lot of "yeah he's small, that's why he lasted until the second round, but he captained the Memorial Cup champs, was clutch in those playoffs and could be a steal because of his heart." It was practically Gerbe-esque. Then he got to Buffalo and there were already strong leaders in place and the whole perception of him changed ... and he hasn't done much to change it back, frankly. Not that he hasn't played well, but he has never gone out of his way to become a strong voice, as far as we can tell. Would be nice for that Derek Roy to show up again.
wjag Posted July 24, 2011 Report Posted July 24, 2011 Does Roy get pegged with "no heart" or is immaturity the greater issue for many? No one knows how healthy Roy was for game seven. As nfreeman stated his return was part of one of the most lackluster performances the team had last season. It was no Willis Reed moment. I don't think anyone challenges Roy's talent. He is capable of being a asset at both ends of the ice. I want to see the Roy that started last season continue into this season. If he can play the way he did early last season I can imagine many "Roy or Myers for Captain" threads next season. He certainly was the only bright spot in the first month of the season. I seem to remember when Roy first came out of junior his heart and leadership were considered his best assets ... maybe I am mis-remembering, but I recall a lot of "yeah he's small, that's why he lasted until the second round, but he captained the Memorial Cup champs, was clutch in those playoffs and could be a steal because of his heart." It was practically Gerbe-esque. Then he got to Buffalo and there were already strong leaders in place and the whole perception of him changed ... and he hasn't done much to change it back, frankly. Not that he hasn't played well, but he has never gone out of his way to become a strong voice, as far as we can tell. Would be nice for that Derek Roy to show up again. My gut tells me this could be his best year (assuming he's healed). There is enough talent around him now to let Roy be Roy instead forcing Roy to try and do it all.
james duncan Posted July 24, 2011 Report Posted July 24, 2011 Does Roy get pegged with "no heart" or is immaturity the greater issue for many? No one knows how healthy Roy was for game seven. As nfreeman stated his return was part of one of the most lackluster performances the team had last season. It was no Willis Reed moment. I don't think anyone challenges Roy's talent. He is capable of being a asset at both ends of the ice. I want to see the Roy that started last season continue into this season. If he can play the way he did early last season I can imagine many "Roy or Myers for Captain" threads next season. Roy's maturity has been the issue. That and the fact that he became one of the posterboys for status quo--some good memories outweighed by failures. I think he stands to benefit most from the roster change-up this season. It's becoming a put-up or shut-up season for many; Roy and Miller leading the pack.
LGR4GM Posted July 24, 2011 Report Posted July 24, 2011 Would giving Roy the C make him as a player more mature? Thats what I am wondering. Roy and the rest of this team are an enigma going into this season. Pegula changed the culture and he did it with a sledge hammer and i dont mean the locker room. Tpegs smacked this team out of status quo like nothing else could. Try Roy with the C and see if that turns him into the player I think he is. Im not sure what kinda team will hit the ice in october. I do think that by winning the Owner Lottery the sabres have new life and that means every player needs to be reevaluated. DontpattheGerbe said that Pegula is the captain and I agree. Thats the guy they do not want to disappoint and you just need to find the player who will reassert that in the locker room. I know it is too early for this but, this team seems to be on the verge of being special. There is a fight within them that we have not seen since 05-06. That never give up and always play hard attitude. Heres my favorite example and also a future captain or assistant captain of this team: His Pressure forces a turnover and he gets that insurance goal because he didnt quit... again this team is going to be special.
nfreeman Posted July 24, 2011 Report Posted July 24, 2011 There is a fight within them that we have not seen since 05-06. That never give up and always play hard attitude. How can you say this? What is this based on? Other than Miller, they completely mailed in their most recent game, which was a game 7. I am optimistic about next season too, but they haven't shown anything yet on the ice when it counts. Not a single GD thing.
Eleven Posted July 24, 2011 Report Posted July 24, 2011 How can you say this? What is this based on? Other than Miller, they completely mailed in their most recent game, which was a game 7. I am optimistic about next season too, but they haven't shown anything yet on the ice when it counts. Not a single GD thing. You could base it on the last couple of months of the regular season, but I agree with you on that Game 7.
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