Drury

[deluca67]

First round, Horton plays 7 games, gets 3 points.

First round, Stafford plays 7 games, gets 3 points.

First round, Pommers plays 5 games, gets 5 points.

 

 

 

Horton got his 6 year 4 mill cap hit deal back in 2007. After he had two years of 28 and 31 goals each.

If Stafford had another season next season at about 30 goals I wouldn't have as big a issue with his contract. Horton got his contract after he proved he was worth it and Stafford got his before he proved he was worth it.

[Taro T]

If Stafford had another season next season at about 30 goals I wouldn't have as big a issue with his contract. Horton got his contract after he proved he was worth it and Stafford got his before he proved he was worth it.

But you wouldn't be able to get him next year at a 4x4 contract. They took a (IMHO, small) risk that he'd regress back to a 20 goal scorer in the future to have the opportunity to lock up a 30 goal scorer for a few years.

 

If he ends up a 28 gpy guy, the contract is a little high, but not horridly out of whack. I don't see him regressing back to Hecht-like offensive #'s. If he becomes a consistant 30+ gpy scorer, it's a very good deal.

[carpandean]

Which isn't good enough.

Really? Because Horton has been somewhere between those two extremes in the first four years of his current contract ((27, 22, 20, 26 in the four seasons since signing.) Horton is not a consistent 30 goal scorer; he's a consistent 25 (+/- a few) scorer, which is in between; not halfway in between, but I didn't say that.

[deluca67]

Really? Because Horton has been somewhere between those two extremes in the first four years of his current contract ((27, 22, 20, 26 in the four seasons since signing.) Horton is not a consistent 30 goal scorer; he's a consistent 25 (+/- a few) scorer, which is in between; not halfway in between, but I didn't say that.

Looking at his first 6 full seasons in the NHL Horton put up 28,31,27,22,20 and 26 goals. He is consistently above 50 points a year. Compare that to Stafford's first four full seasons. Until this season, Horton's worst year was as good as Stafford's best year.

 

A year ago Stafford was a player coming off a 14 goal season and a benching in the playoffs. Stafford had a great comeback year this year. This one year is not worth $16 mil. If another team would have been willing to pay Stafford what the Sabres ended up paying him? They should have moved him.

[X. Benedict]

Looking at his first 6 full seasons in the NHL Horton put up 28,31,27,22,20 and 26 goals. He is consistently above 50 points a year. Compare that to Stafford's first four full seasons. Until this season, Horton's worst year was as good as Stafford's best year.

 

A year ago Stafford was a player coming off a 14 goal season and a benching in the playoffs. Stafford had a great comeback year this year. This one year is not worth $16 mil. If another team would have been willing to pay Stafford what the Sabres ended up paying him? They should have moved him.

 

They can still move him....that's what makes it a great contract.

 

But you think he should have been signed for less....how much money, and for how long?

 

C'mon....numbers please.

[spndnchz]

Looking at his first 6 full seasons in the NHL Horton put up 28,31,27,22,20 and 26 goals. He is consistently above 50 points a year. Compare that to Stafford's first four full seasons. Until this season, Horton's worst year was as good as Stafford's best year.

 

A year ago Stafford was a player coming off a 14 goal season and a benching in the playoffs. Stafford had a great comeback year this year. This one year is not worth $16 mil. If another team would have been willing to pay Stafford what the Sabres ended up paying him? They should have moved him.

 

But Florida still paid Horton after only two seasons NOT 6. Using 6 seasons of Horton to justify his salary is ######. Florida locked him up long term because they thought he would get better and was worth the money. If Horton got his new contract this year do you think he would be getting 4 million a season? NO

 

I'm betting Stafford gets better. Better defensively, PK time and goals. So are the Sabres.

[deluca67]

They can still move him....that's what makes it a great contract.

 

But you think he should have been signed for less....how much money, and for how long?

 

C'mon....numbers please.

I wouldn't go long term and would like to see the numbers between $2.5-$3 mil a season.

 

How easy will it be to move him if he goes back to being Drew Stafford?

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Since this thread has completely degraded ...

 

The one thing that I will point out is this: while there definitely is a Team Storm Cloud, as SwampD puts it, there is no Sunshine and Kitten Crew. Nobody here (not even TW) assumes that they will make all the right moves, that they will certainly improve the team, or that they will definitely make themselves a clear Cup contender. We all agree that significant changes need to be made (yes, even making just two moves is a significant change when those are for a #1 center and a top-pair defenseman) and that Darcy failed to do a lot of things under LQ (we don't know yet how much blame goes to each.) Where we differ is in the number of moves that need (not just that we'd like) to be made and whether there is any chance that Darcy could do better under the current ownership's direction. The negative side assumes and points out whenever possible that management is and will be no different, while the "positive" side says give them a real chance (yes, there were things that could have been done at the deadline, but real change takes place in the Summer.) Again, the latter doesn't assume/say that they are definitely different and will definitely do the right things, but simply allows for the possibility. In fact, most of the "positive" side hope for good things, but have serious doubts. I consider myself in that group and often point out failures or causes for concern. If there truly were a polar opposite of GoDD, etc, then many of the "positive" side would also disagree with the a lot, too.

 

I really respect your opinion so I will try and explain.

 

We have 14 years of watching and listening to Darcy Regier on the record. I am of the firm opinion that Darcy thinks you need to be lucky to win. He says so in his words and actions. He wants to make just enough movement to keep the team in the middle of the pack, with a better chance of winning a Cup than falling to last place. If everything goes your way....you just may "luck" into winning a Cup. But at the same time he has always shyed away from taking large enough risks which could end up with him losing his job. Whether he was watched over by Quinn or not, is meaningless to me as far as transactions go. In fact, as I have said, it makes me hold even less respect for Regier as he values not making waves and keeping a job over having enough self-confidence to become upset with the situation and attempting to rectify it. All we have heard out of the mouths of the GM and Coach this entire time has been 100% support for the decisions, organization, and roster. There is being a team player.....but there is also your responsibility to the fans. If you can sit there for a decade and a half telling me everything is rosy, but it becomes obvious over time things aren't....why should I respect or trust you going forward?

 

For being so negative, if you go back and look....I was the first person here to not only understand what a person like Pegula could mean to this team, but was also convinced from the get-go that he would get the deal done. Because of my previous WARNINGS about Quinn and Golisano, which led to me being called NEGATIVE and a conspiracy theorist, I knew the goal was to sell this team and make money, and to do it as soon as possible once the goodwill from the fans ran out.

 

My faulty assumption was that because of Pegula's business record, he would have the ability to identify mismanagement in a timely manner. Instead we were told:

 

1) Negative comments from media and fans caused this team to quit

2) Injuries caused the team not to advance in the playoffs

3) He didn't care what the details were behind July 1, 2007

4) They ain't goin nowhere

 

I was as positive as anyone here for a good month or so......until Pegula's words the first few days. I felt as if I was at a reading of the will, and my father just left everything to some blonde bimbo he was banging on the side and my mother and all his children were left out in the cold. That is really how shocked I was in hearing him, knowing what it will mean for the near term future of this team. It was right there in your hands in the corner of the endzone....then he Ronnie Harmon's it.

 

I have said I like Ted Black, and because Pegula has the resources he does, they will EVENTUALLY figure things out. The learning curve is just not as fast as I would have imagined when it comes to MAJOR decision making.

 

Will the team have a better chance to succeed given the ownership and some of the changes they have made? Absolutely. Will we see a more aggressive attempt in certain financial and roster aspects? Probably. But the bottom line is.....Darcy Regier is still Darcy Regier. When you have someone who is not only used to, but prefers piloting a Cessna, and you put him into the cockpit of a Stealth Fighter....even if he has the technical knowledge on how to fly that plane in combat....I do not expect to see exciting results. It takes a special attitude to be a fighter pilot, and many of the GM's in the league have that attitude. They have been in and won battles, and take the risks needed to accomplish their missions. Even if that means crashing and ejecting, or worse. Darcy can get the plane in the air, keep it safe during peace time, and land it with little incident. But when it comes to flying with the big boys, I would not want him as my wingman, or protecting my assets.

 

You can't change the being of somebody.

 

I would love to be positive about the chances of this team. I've made my livelyhood by being positive about something....and negative about something. I can't change my fandom, so in a sense I am STUCK with this team. While it looks as if I have been singled out as one of a few that have such an overwhelming negative outlook that it effects some people and their experience here......I would say, 1) You are giving me too much credit. Please put me on ignore if I have such an impact on your psychological well-being. I am being serious. It isn't healthy. And 2) Try putting the shoe on the other foot. While some people here like to view me as some Storm Cloud or whatever other dire metaphor.....I am probably one of the biggest optimists here. In my opinion, you don't need to be lucky to win a Cup. Over time you make and balance out your own luck. When I see such a large group of people making excuses for this team, and not wanting to seriously address problems, all the while gobbling up tickets and promotions over the years......well, I view you as MY PROBLEM! You may be happy and entertained with the product on the ice the past 5 years. I haven't been.....and I view you as a hindering factor in my goal to see a Championship won here. If you are under 25 years old...I understand. Be positive, grab that brass ring, be all you can be......sorry for being a downer. But for the older adults on this board.....if 1 or 2 people can so shake your fragile shell of denial about this team.....then maybe you don't really believe what you are saying.

 

I will be here.....pounding and grinding....working hard......making your lives miserable....... until this team is truly free from it's shackles.

 

Sort of ironic....since that is the only thing I've really asked out of them all these years.

[deluca67]

But Florida still paid Horton after only two seasons NOT 6. Using 6 seasons of Horton to justify his salary is ######. Florida locked him up long term because they thought he would get better and was worth the money. If Horton got his new contract this year do you think he would be getting 4 million a season? NO

 

I'm betting Stafford gets better. Better defensively, PK time and goals. So are the Sabres.

Back to back years of 28 ans 31 goals is more than enough justification to sign a 23 year old Horton to a long term contract. It was a smart contract by Florida and Boston will reap the benefits for at least two more seasons.

[deluca67]

I really respect your opinion so I will try and explain.

 

We have 14 years of watching and listening to Darcy Regier on the record. I am of the firm opinion that Darcy thinks you need to be lucky to win. He says so in his words and actions. He wants to make just enough movement to keep the team in the middle of the pack, with a better chance of winning a Cup than falling to last place. If everything goes your way....you just may "luck" into winning a Cup. But at the same time he has always shyed away from taking large enough risks which could end up with him losing his job. Whether he was watched over by Quinn or not, is meaningless to me as far as transactions go. In fact, as I have said, it makes me hold even less respect for Regier as he values not making waves and keeping a job over having enough self-confidence to become upset with the situation and attempting to rectify it. All we have heard out of the mouths of the GM and Coach this entire time has been 100% support for the decisions, organization, and roster. There is being a team player.....but there is also your responsibility to the fans. If you can sit there for a decade and a half telling me everything is rosy, but it becomes obvious over time things aren't....why should I respect or trust you going forward?

 

For being so negative, if you go back and look....I was the first person here to not only understand what a person like Pegula could mean to this team, but was also convinced from the get-go that he would get the deal done. Because of my previous WARNINGS about Quinn and Golisano, which led to me being called NEGATIVE and a conspiracy theorist, I knew the goal was to sell this team and make money, and to do it as soon as possible once the goodwill from the fans ran out.

 

My faulty assumption was that because of Pegula's business record, he would have the ability to identify mismanagement in a timely manner. Instead we were told:

 

1) Negative comments from media and fans caused this team to quit

2) Injuries caused the team not to advance in the playoffs

3) He didn't care what the details were behind July 1, 2007

4) They ain't goin nowhere

 

I was as positive as anyone here for a good month or so......until Pegula's words the first few days. I felt as if I was at a reading of the will, and my father just left everything to some blonde bimbo he was banging on the side and my mother and all his children were left out in the cold. That is really how shocked I was in hearing him, knowing what it will mean for the near term future of this team. It was right there in your hands in the corner of the endzone....then he Ronnie Harmon's it.

 

I have said I like Ted Black, and because Pegula has the resources he does, they will EVENTUALLY figure things out. The learning curve is just not as fast as I would have imagined when it comes to MAJOR decision making.

 

Will the team have a better chance to succeed given the ownership and some of the changes they have made? Absolutely. Will we see a more aggressive attempt in certain financial and roster aspects? Probably. But the bottom line is.....Darcy Regier is still Darcy Regier. When you have someone who is not only used to, but prefers piloting a Cessna, and you put him into the cockpit of a Stealth Fighter....even if he has the technical knowledge on how to fly that plane in combat....I do not expect to see exciting results. It takes a special attitude to be a fighter pilot, and many of the GM's in the league have that attitude. They have been in and won battles, and take the risks needed to accomplish their missions. Even if that means crashing and ejecting, or worse. Darcy can get the plane in the air, keep it safe during peace time, and land it with little incident. But when it comes to flying with the big boys, I would not want him as my wingman, or protecting my assets.

 

You can't change the being of somebody.

 

I would love to be positive about the chances of this team. I've made my livelyhood by being positive about something....and negative about something. I can't change my fandom, so in a sense I am STUCK with this team. While it looks as if I have been singled out as one of a few that have such an overwhelming negative outlook that it effects some people and their experience here......I would say, 1) You are giving me too much credit. Please put me on ignore if I have such an impact on your psychological well-being. I am being serious. It isn't healthy. And 2) Try putting the shoe on the other foot. While some people here like to view me as some Storm Cloud or whatever other dire metaphor.....I am probably one of the biggest optimists here. In my opinion, you don't need to be lucky to win a Cup. Over time you make and balance out your own luck. When I see such a large group of people making excuses for this team, and not wanting to seriously address problems, all the while gobbling up tickets and promotions over the years......well, I view you as MY PROBLEM! You may be happy and entertained with the product on the ice the past 5 years. I haven't been.....and I view you as a hindering factor in my goal to see a Championship won here. If you are under 25 years old...I understand. Be positive, grab that brass ring, be all you can be......sorry for being a downer. But for the older adults on this board.....if 1 or 2 people can so shake your fragile shell of denial about this team.....then maybe you don't really believe what you are saying.

 

I will be here.....pounding and grinding....working hard......making your lives miserable....... until this team is truly free from it's shackles.

 

Sort of ironic....since that is the only thing I've really asked out of them all these years.

Amen! :clapping:

[X. Benedict]

I wouldn't go long term and would like to see the numbers between $2.5-$3 mil a season.

Thank you.

 

He easily could have gotten 5 million for 1 year from Arby,

and then Buffalo would have had another Briere situation.

 

So they signed him for under-market at term.

 

Stafford wasn't going to sign 2 years for 5 million.

 

 

How easy will it be to move him if he goes back to being Drew Stafford?

More moveable than Horton today. ;)

 

Even if it comes to a buyout ....its only 1.3 million per year cap hit so it is fairly low risk with the cap going over 60. Stafford is very moveable.

[spndnchz]

That is just ridiculous. Horton is far and away the more consistent goal scorer having scored 20+ goals 6 consecutive years and having hit over 25 goals 4 times. At $4mil Horton is a far greater value. Stafford got his inflated contract based on a 32 game stretch. Horton has proved his worth over 6+ seasons and is only 5 months older.

 

I know there are those desperate to justify the Stafford contract, any comparisons to Horton is just too hilarious.

 

 

Back to back years of 28 ans 31 goals is more than enough justification to sign a 23 year old Horton to a long term contract. It was a smart contract by Florida and Boston will reap the benefits for at least two more seasons.

 

Was my point. You contradict yourself.

 

 

You can't keep a player like that long term, cheaply, unless you sign them early for more than a few years.

You let Stafford go to arbitration and get a bigger payday and then say "its too much" and walk away?

You trade him at the deadline, while you're shooting for the playoffs? Get rid of your top scorer?

You pay him 2.5 this year, let him become a UFA next after he gets another 30 goals and requires 5-6mil to retain?

[deluca67]

Was my point. You contradict yourself.

 

 

You can't keep a player like that long term, cheaply, unless you sign them early for more than a few years.

You let Stafford go to arbitration and get a bigger payday and then say "its too much" and walk away?

You trade him at the deadline, while you're shooting for the playoffs? Get rid of your top scorer?

You pay him 2.5 this year, let him become a UFA next after he gets another 30 goals and requires 5-6mil to retain?

Saying Florida was justified to give Horton the contract he received after his 1st two seasons and that Horton has justified the Panthers decision over his first six full seasons is a "contradiction?" Horton earned his contract.

 

I have to laugh. Horton and Stafford are not the same player. One is a young star in the league and the other is coming off his only good season. The Sabres are hoping Stafford can become a Nathan Horton.

[Taro T]

...

 

We have 14 years of watching and listening to Darcy Regier on the record. I am of the firm opinion that Darcy thinks you need to be lucky to win. He says so in his words and actions. He wants to make just enough movement to keep the team in the middle of the pack, with a better chance of winning a Cup than falling to last place. If everything goes your way....you just may "luck" into winning a Cup. But at the same time he has always shyed away from taking large enough risks which could end up with him losing his job. Whether he was watched over by Quinn or not, is meaningless to me as far as transactions go. In fact, as I have said, it makes me hold even less respect for Regier as he values not making waves and keeping a job over having enough self-confidence to become upset with the situation and attempting to rectify it. All we have heard out of the mouths of the GM and Coach this entire time has been 100% support for the decisions, organization, and roster. There is being a team player.....but there is also your responsibility to the fans. If you can sit there for a decade and a half telling me everything is rosy, but it becomes obvious over time things aren't....why should I respect or trust you going forward?

 

...

I have the exact opposite take on Regier's self-confidence based on the shackles he has dealt w/ through the years.

 

Only someone extremely confident in their own abilities can thrive in the sort of environment that has been the Sabres' upper management. And he has thrived, all things considered. He made tweaks to the '97 division winner he inherited and has them w/in a goal and 60 minutes of winning it all - I am still waiting for them to drop the puck and finish that game. He had a team that didn't get ANY value for Peca in '01 (due to cash flow issues) w/in either of 2 OT's away from playing a team they OWNED for the right to play a Colorado team they'd beaten in the RS in Denver.

 

He built a team that was w/in 20 minutes of playing an 8th place squad for the SC and followed that one up w/ a President's Trophy winner.

 

No he has not, to date, built a team that has won it all, and he may never get there. But at the risk of sounding like the proverbial broken record, I've seen enough out of him to believe the odds are greater that he can build a team that will win it all than they are that he's peaked. And if he can't get the job done, there WILL be assets on this squad that can be used to get there in a timely manner (I wouldn't say that an Espo or Milbury would leave a team that could quickly get over the hump. I do believe that in a worst case, Regier will.)

 

Muckler's biggest successes in Buffalo didn't come before he 'got shackled.' After getting seriously constrained, he then built a division winner and supplied the bulk of the roster that is still waiting for the puck to drop at the blue line to Hasek's left. Muckler "rectified" a situation that HE created by making astute personnel decisions and lucking into keeping Hasek.

 

Regier has "rectified" situations he didn't create by bringing in players to replace the ones that he's been forced to let go for economic reasons. I'd have a lot LESS respect for him if he pouted and 'took his ball home' when the mean owners wouldn't let him keep the players that were on the verge of winning it all (at least 3 separate times - '99, '01, & '06).

 

Just a difference of perspective.

[LGR4GM]

Was my point. You contradict yourself.

 

 

You can't keep a player like that long term, cheaply, unless you sign them early for more than a few years.

You let Stafford go to arbitration and get a bigger payday and then say "its too much" and walk away?

You trade him at the deadline, while you're shooting for the playoffs? Get rid of your top scorer?

You pay him 2.5 this year, let him become a UFA next after he gets another 30 goals and requires 5-6mil to retain?

See even though you think I am crazy and forgot to take my riddlin, i agree with you on this and I also predicted drews caphit and was only a year off on his #of years (i thought it would be 3). Not signing stafford to this contract opens us up to more problems in the future. I for one refuse to pass judgment on a player coming off his best season so far by saying he will suck next year even though there is 0 indication that will be true. If Roy was signed last year he would get more money but he wasnt so we are saving and I think drew will progress the same way. Drew is a top rw and could become and elite one but at least the 4 year contract lets us see if thats the case, he has improved every year (but last years slump) hes been on the team so that should tell us something. I mean its like saying Roy is not a number 1 center, he clearly is, just look at what he does. Is he a dominating center? Maybe not but he was working towards it last year. Only about 5 players in the league can dominate games on a nightly basis so if roy can do it occasionally or with some help than I am good with him being #1 an getting a #2. Roy and Stafford make a good combo and maybe if you throw Vanek up there it would create a pretty decent line but I think this team had to bring itself up to Roy's level and it could only do that through his absence. Lets past judgment on next years team long after july 1 and preferable not until the all star break. by then we should have a good feel if the peaces that got added or were kept need to go. But saying Drew is now overpaid and Roy sucks makes no sense considering 1 is coming off his best season and the other was injured for most of the season and still had 35 pts in 35 games. I am willing to see the start before judging the finish.

[X. Benedict]

Saying Florida was justified to give Horton the contract he received after his 1st two seasons and that Horton has justified the Panthers decision over his first six full seasons is a "contradiction?" Horton earned his contract.

 

I have to laugh. Horton and Stafford are not the same player. One is a young star in the league and the other is coming off his only good season. The Sabres are hoping Stafford can become a Nathan Horton.

 

This is laughable. Horton was given a contact because he had the expectations of becoming what Florida thought they had in the #3 pick. He never was.

 

Horton couldn't skate well enough to play center, so that was a failure, and doesn't really have great vision. Career highs are 30 goals and 62 points. He had a notoriously poor work ethic in Florida - fans in Florida were not sad about seeing him go.

 

Of course Horton's career isn't done, and he has benefited from being on a deeper team and having a change of scenery...but from having watched quite a bit of the two I'd say:

 

Stafford is the better shot, better skater, better stick handler, and this year was the better player.

 

Having said that..Horton still has a decent shot. And the fact that Kreji and Lucic have worked as linemates in the playoffs really says more about Kreji than the other two. IMO. The Bruins are deep....but Horton isn't the guy who is going to dangle carrying the puck. He's a pretty limited player. A Fiesty 25 goal scorer...which isn't bad, but he's no star.

 

Hopefully Horton makes a full recovery...but I suspect he'll be a diminished player much like Tim Connolly.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I have the exact opposite take on Regier's self-confidence based on the shackles he has dealt w/ through the years.

 

Only someone extremely confident in their own abilities can thrive in the sort of environment that has been the Sabres' upper management. And he has thrived, all things considered. He made tweaks to the '97 division winner he inherited and has them w/in a goal and 60 minutes of winning it all - I am still waiting for them to drop the puck and finish that game. He had a team that didn't get ANY value for Peca in '01 (due to cash flow issues) w/in either of 2 OT's away from playing a team they OWNED for the right to play a Colorado team they'd beaten in the RS in Denver.

 

He built a team that was w/in 20 minutes of playing an 8th place squad for the SC and followed that one up w/ a President's Trophy winner.

 

No he has not, to date, built a team that has won it all, and he may never get there. But at the risk of sounding like the proverbial broken record, I've seen enough out of him to believe the odds are greater that he can build a team that will win it all than they are that he's peaked. And if he can't get the job done, there WILL be assets on this squad that can be used to get there in a timely manner (I wouldn't say that an Espo or Milbury would leave a team that could quickly get over the hump. I do believe that in a worst case, Regier will.)

 

Muckler's biggest successes in Buffalo didn't come before he 'got shackled.' After getting seriously constrained, he then built a division winner and supplied the bulk of the roster that is still waiting for the puck to drop at the blue line to Hasek's left. Muckler "rectified" a situation that HE created by making astute personnel decisions and lucking into keeping Hasek.

 

Regier has "rectified" situations he didn't create by bringing in players to replace the ones that he's been forced to let go for economic reasons. I'd have a lot LESS respect for him if he pouted and 'took his ball home' when the mean owners wouldn't let him keep the players that were on the verge of winning it all (at least 3 separate times - '99, '01, & '06).

 

Just a difference of perspective.

 

Muckler is the exact type of guy I am talking about. He won't always be right....and he may hit patches of disaster....but he will have his day...more than once. It was a fiasco, Muckler wanted things a certain way, he didn't get it and was shitcanned even after winning executive of the year. I'm sure he wasn't crying about it because he goes to NY.

 

You speak of Regier much like a husband of 20 years justifies staying in a stifling marriage where he is powerless. I hope he remembers you for a speech when he is inducted into the hockey hall of fame. You would do him well.

[shrader]

And let's not forget the fact that Horton matched his 2006-2007 numbers the next year after signing that contract and then never reach that level again. Last year he did actually have better point per game numbers, but if I recall correctly, that type of analysis isn't allowed in delucaville.

[deluca67]

And let's not forget the fact that Horton matched his 2006-2007 numbers the next year after signing that contract and then never reach that level again. Last year he did actually have better point per game numbers, but if I recall correctly, that type of analysis isn't allowed in delucaville.

He had two down goal scoring years in Florida and bounced back nicely this season and followed up nicely in the playoffs with 8-9-17 +11 in 21 games. Even in Horton's down goal years his point totals are as good as Stafford's best year.

[Taro T]

Muckler is the exact type of guy I am talking about. He won't always be right....and he may hit patches of disaster....but he will have his day...more than once. It was a fiasco, Muckler wanted things a certain way, he didn't get it and was shitcanned even after winning executive of the year. I'm sure he wasn't crying about it because he goes to NY.

 

You speak of Regier much like a husband of 20 years justifies staying in a stifling marriage where he is powerless. I hope he remembers you for a speech when he is inducted into the hockey hall of fame. You would do him well.

Muckler won executive of the year AFTER being told 'you will work w/in a limited budget & you will not bring another ###### Edmonton Euler over the hill reject onto this squad.' He stayed and worked through the EXACT same constraints you've stated that Regier should bolt from. (Or does having to sit back and watch guys like Hawerchuk and Ledyard walk and get nothing in return and trade guys like Mogilny for prospects and a pick somehow not bear resemblence to the roots of this discussion?)

 

And IIRC, Muckler wasn't overly thrilled to go back to coaching in Buffalo - he came here to eventually take on the GM role. Wouldn't a man like Muckler who "wanted things a certain way" have told the Knoxes & Meehan to ###### off when he had to do something he'd've preferred not doing?

[dEnnis the Menace]

He had two down goal scoring years in Florida and bounced back nicely this season and followed up nicely in the playoffs with 8-9-17 +11 in 21 games. Even in Horton's down goal years his point totals are as good as Stafford's best year.

 

Are you looking at Points or Points per game? Because someone upthread pointed out that there isn't much difference in terms of total production lifetime regarding points per game (0.7 ppg difference I believe I saw, with 200 less games?). I am at work, and don;t have a ton of time to look that up, but they sound pretty comparable to me, and honestly, I believe Stafford has more upside.

[X. Benedict]

He had two down goal scoring years in Florida and bounced back nicely this season and followed up nicely in the playoffs with 8-9-17 +11 in 21 games. Even in Horton's down goal years his point totals are as good as Stafford's best year.

 

Yes.....but let's look at the past year.

 

Stafford 31 g 21 a 52 pts in 62 games

Horton 26 g 27 a 53 pts in 80 games

 

So yes......Horton had more points this year but

 

as the Sesame Street song goes...."one of these things is not like the others..."

[dEnnis the Menace]

Yes.....but let's look at the past year.

 

Stafford 31 g 21 a 52 pts in 62 games

Horton 26 g 27 a 53 pts in 80 games

 

So yes......Horton had more points this year but

 

as the Sesame Street song goes...."one of these things is not like the others..."

 

+1

 

This goes back to the points vs points per game argument that was brought up

 

(SIDENOTE: I'm editing drawings in Solidworks for work, and I keep leaving the caps lock on, so I went to type the last two posts, and realized I typed half of them in all caps :doh: )

[LGR4GM]

Yes.....but let's look at the past year.

 

Stafford 31 g 21 a 52 pts in 62 games

Horton 26 g 27 a 53 pts in 80 games

 

So yes......Horton had more points this year but

 

as the Sesame Street song goes...."one of these things is not like the others..."

My feeling with drew is Ennis finally gave him the winger he needed and then when he played with vanek, vaneks elevated game also gave him the opposing winger he needed to start to excel. Stafford is a good puck handler and a great shot but he likes to get the puck and shoot, hes been better at working the gritty areas but as far as him and Horton go, if Stafford had had Krecji as his centerman all year I bet he would have done somethine like 36goals 36assists, not to mention ennis was a rookie so there is way more upside here and I think the subtraction of TC will help his mental toughness. Hes only 25 so the fact that hes finally growing up is not that big of a deal. Maybe we should make a line of Gerbe, stafford, ennis for fun and see how that goes.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Muckler won executive of the year AFTER being told 'you will work w/in a limited budget & you will not bring another ###### Edmonton Euler over the hill reject onto this squad.' He stayed and worked through the EXACT same constraints you've stated that Regier should bolt from. (Or does having to sit back and watch guys like Hawerchuk and Ledyard walk and get nothing in return and trade guys like Mogilny for prospects and a pick somehow not bear resemblence to the roots of this discussion?)

 

And IIRC, Muckler wasn't overly thrilled to go back to coaching in Buffalo - he came here to eventually take on the GM role. Wouldn't a man like Muckler who "wanted things a certain way" have told the Knoxes & Meehan to ###### off when he had to do something he'd've preferred not doing?

 

:death:

 

Muckler did tell Quinn to go to hell when Larry was playing douchebag poker with him and Nolan. Muckler is the type of guy that would have cut out Quinn's kidney with a hunting knife in the HSBC men's room by year number 2, let alone a decade later.

 

Poor John.....had to go live in New York City for a few years. Stunk it up, then builds a cup team from near scratch in Ottawa.

 

I would love to see where, and how fast Darcy would end up if he left the Sabres over the past 4 years.

 

 

Again....if you are happy. I respect your knowledge and insight on everything. I just think either you are too close to the situation somehow, or for as much as I value you as a source... don't want you picking my army.