Drury

[Weave]

Team Storm Cloud vs The Sunshine and Kitten Crew. The timeless battle wages on.

 

I think it's fun.

 

 

LOL

 

What I find entertaining is that The Sunshine and Kitten Crew for the most part has no idea that they are EXACTLY the same, just a mirror image.

[deluca67]

So, you bitch a blue streak about the Sabres sucking, without actually using the word suck, and then you jump on someone for accusing you of saying they suck? C'mon.

 

And your solution to the Sabres not sucking is for them to suck harder for a few more years? That's great. Real growth for teams comes through trades, not buying someone in FA with some extra cash laying around, and for that you need to have assets, not prospects. Every team has prospects.

There is a gap between sucking and not be a contender just like there is between being a contender and not being a contender.

 

My "solution" is not for the "Sabres not sucking" it's to turn this team into a Cup contender. I really wish people would take time to read my posts before they try to respond. I have said the Sabres should purge to take advantage of future free-agent classes and be prepared when trade opportunities become available. That way they are in a position to get a deal done the next time a player like Horton becomes available.

[SwampD]

There is a gap between sucking and not be a contender just like there is between being a contender and not being a contender.

 

My "solution" is not for the "Sabres not sucking" it's to turn this team into a Cup contender. I really wish people would take time to read my posts before they try to respond. I have said the Sabres should purge to take advantage of future free-agent classes and be prepared when trade opportunities become available. That way they are in a position to get a deal done the next time a player like Horton becomes available.

I wish you would have read my post. How do you make a trade for a player like Horton if you have nothing to send they other way?

 

And I don't see how doing what you suggested wouldn't to the team not sucking.

[HopefulFuture]

I wish you would have read my post. How do you make a trade for a player like Horton if you have nothing to send they other way?

 

And I don't see how doing what you suggested would not to the team not sucking.

So, my Pominville and 2 Butler's for your Horton and 2nd rounder wouldn't get it done? :blink:

 

I kid, I kid......but I believe you did hit on something here, and it's not my wife (50% off sale this week by the way :thumbsup: ).

 

After reading through countless posts, there appears to be a major, no, make that HUGE Buffalo, HUGE! split on what some of the fans on here see as net worth for our players.

 

Some say player X is only worth this and others say that.

 

In the end, the Sabres do actually have tradable commodities on their roster and in their talent pipeline that can be used to hook a fish.

DeLuca has many valid points on this, the roster has grown stale with the current core of the team.

After 4 full seasons now with the same Vanek, Pominville, Roy, Stafford and Goose situation in the forwards and other plug and plays coming in with some youth it is more than clear, to me as a fan in any event, that the core needs a shake up.

It's the same result every season now. Something needs to give here and those players listed, whichever one or one's are to be moved to create that shakeup, they all have worth to more than several teams out there.

[X. Benedict]

That way they are in a position to get a deal done the next time a player like Horton becomes available.

Horton? (a position that the Sabres are deep at)

 

Explain to me this.....

 

How is trading a 1st rounder (15th pick), Dennis Wideman and a 3rd round pick for Horton at 3 X 4M million a good deal....and having Stafford at 4 X 4M without giving up anything such a bad deal?

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Team Storm Cloud vs The Sunshine and Kitten Crew. The timeless battle wages on.

 

I think it's fun.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4CizzE-zZo

[Sabre fan]

Agreed...Staff is a good signing. while the B's gave alot for Horton. But the grass is always greener, so everyone wants anybody but our players. We have a awesome core, possibly the best batch of prospects (including some NHL ready)

and the future's so bright, we gotta wear shades! A couple of additions will only strengthen the team. Go Sabres Go!!!

[X. Benedict]

Agreed...Staff is a good signing. while the B's gave alot for Horton. But the grass is always greener, so everyone wants anybody but our players. We have a awesome core, possibly the best batch of prospects (including some NHL ready)

and the future's so bright, we gotta wear shades! A couple of additions will only strengthen the team. Go Sabres Go!!!

 

Horton's a good player- but not beyond comparison to Stafford.

 

IF Horton was drafted 3rd overall by Buffalo and was still here - he'd be the most hated player on the roster. :lol:

[Weave]

Horton's a good player- but not beyond comparison to Stafford.

 

IF Horton was drafted 3rd overall by Buffalo and was still here - he'd be the most hated player on the roster. :lol:

 

I think you find the value in the Horton trade (and don't find the value in the Stafford signing) when you see what he has put up in the playoffs. There was nothing to indicate before this post season, but Horton is showing that he is the kind of guy that gets it done in the playoffs. Stafford to date, not so much. I'll gladly give that kind of trade up to get a guy who puts up numbers in the post season rahter than sign a freebie that doesn't give you what you need during crunch time.

 

I think a big part of the difference between the dark clouders and rainbow worshipers comes down to how we each evaluate the players on the squad. In my case, I'm not looking at a Stafford or Pomminstein and thinking we can get more goals and assists out of someone else. I'm thinking we have too many guys who don't know how to win at the next level and want to replace them with guys that can ratchet things up. They may not get Pommers 50 pts in the regualr season, but if they get me 12 pts in the post season and lift the team in other ways I'm calling it a win.

[Sabre fan]

Agreed, players who take it to the next level come playoff time are rare, and hard to find. Pommer's did take his game to another level during our past playoff runs, especially versus Ottawa, Whether he still has that in him, who knows? Boston got lucky in Horton, cause there was no way to know he'd excel so much in playoffs, cause he's never been there before with Florida. There is no denying Briere does rise to any occasion, and thus I still think he's a guy I'd target, not Drury. Philly is cap crazy, and need relief.

[carpandean]

2. The constant wave of opinion flows both ways people. As much as a few of you are annoyed to the point of secretive PM about Dwight and DeLuca's point of view (and apparently mine to), you all ARE doing the same thing going the other way. And you have the advantage in numbers. Any feelings of being the victim here are self generated.

Team Storm Cloud vs The Sunshine and Kitten Crew. The timeless battle wages on.

Since this thread has completely degraded ...

 

The one thing that I will point out is this: while there definitely is a Team Storm Cloud, as SwampD puts it, there is no Sunshine and Kitten Crew. Nobody here (not even TW) assumes that they will make all the right moves, that they will certainly improve the team, or that they will definitely make themselves a clear Cup contender. We all agree that significant changes need to be made (yes, even making just two moves is a significant change when those are for a #1 center and a top-pair defenseman) and that Darcy failed to do a lot of things under LQ (we don't know yet how much blame goes to each.) Where we differ is in the number of moves that need (not just that we'd like) to be made and whether there is any chance that Darcy could do better under the current ownership's direction. The negative side assumes and points out whenever possible that management is and will be no different, while the "positive" side says give them a real chance (yes, there were things that could have been done at the deadline, but real change takes place in the Summer.) Again, the latter doesn't assume/say that they are definitely different and will definitely do the right things, but simply allows for the possibility. In fact, most of the "positive" side hope for good things, but have serious doubts. I consider myself in that group and often point out failures or causes for concern. If there truly were a polar opposite of GoDD, etc, then many of the "positive" side would also disagree with the a lot, too.

[deluca67]

Horton's a good player- but not beyond comparison to Stafford.

 

IF Horton was drafted 3rd overall by Buffalo and was still here - he'd be the most hated player on the roster. :lol:

That is just ridiculous. Horton is far and away the more consistent goal scorer having scored 20+ goals 6 consecutive years and having hit over 25 goals 4 times. At $4mil Horton is a far greater value. Stafford got his inflated contract based on a 32 game stretch. Horton has proved his worth over 6+ seasons and is only 5 months older.

 

I know there are those desperate to justify the Stafford contract, any comparisons to Horton is just too hilarious.

[Weave]

The negative side assumes and points out whenever possible that management is and will be no different, while the "positive" side says give them a real chance (yes, there were things that could have been done at the deadline, but real change takes place in the Summer.) Again, the latter doesn't assume/say that they are definitely different and will definitely do the right things, but simply allows for the possibility.

 

I'm not sure your idea of the negative side is the same as a bunch of the others. I say this because I have stated many times that I am cautiously optimistic about this offseason, yet we see here in this thread that apparently I am a dark sider.

 

Where we differ is in the number of moves that need (not just that we'd like) to be made

 

And I think this sentence comes down to the crux of it. The sihining, happy people seem to be of the "we only need a couple of players" persuation. The other side thinks a couple players is just a start. This probably puts me in line with the dark siders. IMO we are 4 players MINIMUM from getting to contender status. Five is more likely. I like the skill level this team has. I don't like the mix of current players though.

[carpandean]

That is just ridiculous. Horton is far and away the more consistent goal scorer having scored 20+ goals 6 consecutive years and having hit over 25 goals 4 times. At $4mil Horton is a far greater value. Stafford got his inflated contract based on a 32 game stretch. Horton has proved his worth over 6+ seasons and is only 5 months older.

If you are pointing out 20+ goals and "over 25 goals" as marks for Horton, then you have to count this whole season for Stafford, not just those middle 32 games. He scored at a 27 goal pace during the remaining games, so that has to count, too. He also scored 20 goals two seasons ago. So, while you are correct that Horton has done more than Stafford, you don't have to short-change Drew quite so much to prove your point.

 

If last year becomes the norm, Stafford will be underpriced; if he reverts back, then he will be overpriced. Chances are that he'll be somewhere in between.

[carpandean]

I'm not sure your idea of the negative side is the same as a bunch of the others. I say this because I have stated many times that I am cautiously optimistic about this offseason, yet we see here in this thread that apparently I am a dark sider.

Possibly. While you are definitely further down the scale, I wouldn't call you an extremist in that direction.

 

And I think this sentence comes down to the crux of it. The sihining, happy people seem to be of the "we only need a couple of players" persuation. The other side thinks a couple players is just a start. This probably puts me in line with the dark siders. IMO we are 4 players MINIMUM from getting to contender status. Five is more likely. I like the skill level this team has. I don't like the mix of current players though.

I would point out, though, that the biggest moves, the ones that would have the most impact, are generally agreed upon by all, while the remaining moves vary from "would be nice to do" to "must do". For example, I'd say that a legit #1 center and top-pair defenseman (which, again, is significant change) would make them a contender, but three or four more moves (e.g., a new third-line center) could be made to increase the chances of actually winning it. I would love to see all of them made this summer, but that's probably not realistic.

[Weave]

I would love to see all of them made this summer, but that's probably not realistic.

 

I agree with this. We are realistically looking at 2 or more offseasons to move in what we need to to get to contender status.

[Weave]

Possibly. While you are definitely further down the scale, I wouldn't call you an extremist in that direction.

 

So, that makes DeLuca and Dwight fundamentalist dark siders, whereas I'm just a twice a year church going believer? :P :D

[carpandean]

So, that makes DeLuca and Dwight fundamentalist dark siders, whereas I'm just a twice a year church going believer? :P :D

Darn Chreasters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

(For our non-Christian posters, Chreaster = someone who goes to Church on Christmas and Easter only.)

[biodork]

Darn Chreasters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

(For our non-Christian posters, Chreaster = someone who goes to Church on Christmas and Easter only.)

 

lol - never heard that one before, but I like it. :thumbsup:

[Weave]

Darn Chreasters.

 

For our non-Christian posters, Chreaster = someone who goes to Church on Christmas and Easter only.)

 

I thought for sure you would reply with, "no, you are the guy who goes every week but leaves before the collection". I was kind of counting on it. :D

[carpandean]

I thought for sure you would reply with, "no, you are the guy who goes every week but leaves before the collection". I was kind of counting on it. :D

"Say, Weave."

"Yeah, Carp?"

"Aren't they like the guy who goes every week but leaves before the collection?"

(Awaits witty follow-up analogy.)

 

:thumbsup:

[Weave]

"Say, Weave."

"Yeah, Carp?"

"Aren't they like the guy who goes every week but leaves before the collection?"

(Awaits witty follow-up analogy.)

 

:thumbsup:

 

Nah man, We've lost the moment. Next time. :ph34r:

[X. Benedict]

That is just ridiculous. Horton is far and away the more consistent goal scorer having scored 20+ goals 6 consecutive years and having hit over 25 goals 4 times.

Ridiculous? Wrong.

 

In an arbitration hearing Horton/Stafford would have been direct comparables.

 

Career pts per game..... Stafford .62 Horton .69

 

And Stafford has played 200 fewer games.

 

Over the course of a season that is about 4 points difference. That's very comparable for similar positions.

 

Unless you have such a refined sense of numbers that .07 ppg isn't something we can compare when they play the same position

 

At $4mil Horton is a far greater value.

 

Except he didn't cost $4 million, he cost Wideman, a 1st round pick( #15 overall), and a 3rd round pick. That means far less value.

 

Stafford got his inflated contract based on a 32 game stretch.

Please answer this before you do anything else. Give me an example of a fair contract for Stafford. What is a good contract for him? Give an example - Term and Money.

 

Horton has proved his worth over 6+ seasons and is only 5 months older.

 

Worth? Remember he was 3rd overall pick. the 3rd overall pick. The 3rd overall pick. 3rd.

Three...that's after one and two......third. In the entire draft. Yep. 3. If he was a Sabre you would be telling us daily he was a bust.

 

I know there are those desperate to justify the Stafford contract, any comparisons to Horton is just too hilarious.

No desperation. It's a good contract.

 

Please give examples of what a good contract would have been for Stafford. Include term and money. Do it.

[spndnchz]

I think you find the value in the Horton trade (and don't find the value in the Stafford signing) when you see what he has put up in the playoffs. There was nothing to indicate before this post season, but Horton is showing that he is the kind of guy that gets it done in the playoffs. Stafford to date, not so much. I'll gladly give that kind of trade up to get a guy who puts up numbers in the post season rahter than sign a freebie that doesn't give you what you need during crunch time.

 

I think a big part of the difference between the dark clouders and rainbow worshipers comes down to how we each evaluate the players on the squad. In my case, I'm not looking at a Stafford or Pomminstein and thinking we can get more goals and assists out of someone else. I'm thinking we have too many guys who don't know how to win at the next level and want to replace them with guys that can ratchet things up. They may not get Pommers 50 pts in the regualr season, but if they get me 12 pts in the post season and lift the team in other ways I'm calling it a win.

First round, Horton plays 7 games, gets 3 points.

First round, Stafford plays 7 games, gets 3 points.

First round, Pommers plays 5 games, gets 5 points.

 

That is just ridiculous. Horton is far and away the more consistent goal scorer having scored 20+ goals 6 consecutive years and having hit over 25 goals 4 times. At $4mil Horton is a far greater value. Stafford got his inflated contract based on a 32 game stretch. Horton has proved his worth over 6+ seasons and is only 5 months older.

 

I know there are those desperate to justify the Stafford contract, any comparisons to Horton is just too hilarious.

 

Horton got his 6 year 4 mill cap hit deal back in 2007. After he had two years of 28 and 31 goals each.

[deluca67]

If you are pointing out 20+ goals and "over 25 goals" as marks for Horton, then you have to count this whole season for Stafford, not just those middle 32 games. He scored at a 27 goal pace during the remaining games, so that has to count, too. He also scored 20 goals two seasons ago. So, while you are correct that Horton has done more than Stafford, you don't have to short-change Drew quite so much to prove your point.

 

If last year becomes the norm, Stafford will be underpriced; if he reverts back, then he will be overpriced. Chances are that he'll be somewhere in between.

Which isn't good enough.