[OT] Legal Issues

[thesportsbuff]

Extremely off topic but there are some educated minds on this site that may be able to help out a friend of mine. Here's the story:

 

A friend of mine "works" from home for a company, creating graphics for their website. It's a pretty popular website and his work is viewed THOUSANDS of times a day. The thing is, he is not under contract with this company in any way and is not paid on salary, but instead is paid through an "Employee Rewards" program which hands out bonuses to employees based on their months performance. Since he is not an actual "employee" he is "Rewarded" based on the amount of graphics he does each month, and it has been verbally agreed upon that he would get this "Reward check" every month (where as other, contracted employees would compete w/ other employees for the bonus, he is guaranteed the bonus). He's basically freelancing for them, but I think even freelancers have a "contract" of some sort.

 

Here's where the problem starts: The company has began to slack big time on his payments. Checks come months late, and sometimes he's gone as long as 6 months without seeing a penny despite creating hundreds of graphics for them throughout that period -- then, eventually, a check will come, or 4-5 months worth of checks will come at once. So basically, they aren't refusing to pay him, they just get very, very, very far behind. The timetable is always shifting, but they HAVE always eventually gotten him his money. Now, it's been 8 and a half months since he's received a check and he's getting increasingly irritated.

 

Based on there being no contract and him not being an actual employee, I doubt there's anything he can do legally about it. He also knows that IF he tries to do something legally, it's likely that their relationship will end and not only will he not be paid in the future, but he may NEVER see the money he's already owed. He could keep waiting and eventually the money would probably show up... I've told him to just refuse to do any work until a check shows up, but he doesn't want to-- they would find somebody else to do it and then who knows if he'd ever be paid for the work he's already done.

 

I guess he wants to know what kind of options and legal rights he has. Can he demand all his graphics be taken off the site? Technically since they aren't paying him, he hasn't given them the right to use the image, right?... or has he by emailing them to the company in the first place? Can he request $$ for their using his graphics for months, which equates to MILLIONS of views? What kind of legal angle can he take on this?

 

thanks guys... just couple last things to note: it's not his primary source of income, just a side job. but it isn't "under the table" as its counted as income on his taxes. and secondly he works from home but it is NOT a scam... its a semi-major, legitimate company.

[Weave]

A verbal agreement is still a binding agreement. And he has provided a service for a verbally agreed upon fee that hasn't been paid. This means he has legal recourse.

 

Terms of payment should have been discussed at the very beginning of their business relationship. If it wasn't discussed and agreed upon back then, it should most certainly be discussed and agreed upon now.

 

And if a company I was doing business with was 8 months behind on paying me I would have already been in contact with legal counsel. I'm not familiar with copyright and trademark laws but I strongly suspect those images fall under the laws that cover intellectual properties. He needs to speak with a lawyer.

 

 

 

Edit- riiiiiiight. help for a friend. :rolleyes: :D

[MattPie]

I'm not lawyer, but as far as I know copyright stays with the creator unless specifically assigned to someone else. It might get murky for the stuff he's been paid for already (the argument being the company (reasonably) expected that the stuff they paid for implied transfer of copyright), but the unpaid stuff could probably be pulled. I don't know what that would accomplish though, since if it's a web company it'd be pretty easy stop using the graphics with a couple keystrokes (unlike print media or whatnot).

 

I guess the moral is put something in writing for the future and be wary of any agreement that allows your employer too much flexibility. Hate to be that way, since odds are the company is struggling if they're not making 'payroll', but you gots to pay the bills too.

[Sabre Dance]

I don't think I would have waited months before doing something about it. A couple of things: Has he contacted the company to say "Whaassup?!" If so, did they give him a plausible explanation for the delay in payment? Also, this sounds like a company with a cash flow problem. If they can't afford to cut him a check for months and then all of the checks show up at once, the company may be struggling. Or, they may be paying someone else to do graphics (at a cheaper rate, no doubt) as a tryout and when they find the right replacement, they'll cut him loose.

Yep, have him speak to a lawyer, see what options are available. And look for another second job.

[sabredog]

If you do call a lawyer he will have your 8 1/2 months pay by the time it gets worked out. Try to find another compamy that does the same thing but pays on time. Easy to say when it's not my money. Good Luck

[spndnchz]

If you expect the lawyers on this site to publicly give u advise, don't hold ur breath. That's like a stock broker giving u a hot tip on yahoo. PM b better. With this:

Disclaimer: All of what I say or do or advise; anyone, animal, vegetable or mineral, to say or do, or convey to anyone else; is no way, in fact, my opinion or advise on anything.

[korab rules]

A verbal agreement is still a binding agreement. And he has provided a service for a verbally agreed upon fee that hasn't been paid. This means he has legal recourse.

 

Terms of payment should have been discussed at the very beginning of their business relationship. If it wasn't discussed and agreed upon back then, it should most certainly be discussed and agreed upon now.

 

And if a company I was doing business with was 8 months behind on paying me I would have already been in contact with legal counsel. I'm not familiar with copyright and trademark laws but I strongly suspect those images fall under the laws that cover intellectual properties. He needs to speak with a lawyer.

 

 

 

Edit- riiiiiiight. help for a friend. :rolleyes: :D

 

There's an old saying about oral contracts - they aren't worth the paper they are written on.

 

Yes, they are enforceable, the rub is identifying the terms. Here, you have a course of conduct that helps to identify the terms.

 

First suggestion:

Has "your friend" talked to them and asked whats up? If so, what is the response?

 

I think your friend needs to either accept an 8-12 month gap in payment for services rendered or resign himself to the fact he will no longer be working for this company.

 

Once he does, the recommended course of action depends on how much he is owed. If a lot, play hard ball with a lawyer.

 

If a little, notify them immediately that you have not been paid, they don't have the right to use your product (even though they probably do) and bring an action in small claim or the civil section of your supreme court if your county or their county has it.

 

***All of what I say or do or advise; anyone, animal, vegetable or mineral, to say or do, or convey to anyone else; is no way, in fact, my opinion or advise on anything.

[thesportsbuff]

If you expect the lawyers on this site to publicly give u advise, don't hold ur breath. That's like a stock broker giving u a hot tip on yahoo. PM b better. With this:

Disclaimer: All of what I say or do or advise; anyone, animal, vegetable or mineral, to say or do, or convey to anyone else; is no way, in fact, my opinion or advise on anything.

 

Um, what?

 

 

 

 

As for everyone else thanks for your replies. A few things to add:

 

1. When he asks about the money, he just gets the run around, really. Says they tell him they'll "look into it" or that it'll be there "by x date" and then it just never is.

 

2. my information was slightly wrong -- he received a check about 3 months ago FOR work that was done 9-10 months ago... he is still owed money from as far back as November, but there has been contact and money exchanged since then, as they were catching up on payments from September and October.

 

3. it's not like he just ignored it for 8 months and is just now trying to sort it out, but it's been a constant pattern. they always come late. sometimes they would come 3-4 months late and, the wait would suck, but then one day he would get 3-4 months pay in one check showing up at his door -- sometimes that was worth the wait since he didn't have the chance to blow it all yet!

 

4. the terms of the deal were agreed upon, but not the $$. the $$ varies every month depending on how many graphics they need, what size, etc. Because he has worked w/ this company for a long time --originally started out doing volunteer work for them, but as company grew they told him they could try to work him into their payroll-- he didn't mind the gaps in money at first, but as I said it is becoming increasingly annoying for him.

 

we're not talking LOADS of money here, but certainly a large enough amount to be concerned about. i'm told that, dating back to november, we're probably talking in the ballpark of 3500-4500$$. it's not a life or death situation and i think ultimately he'll just wait it out... it's not a heavy work load and the money WILL come eventually, it's just a matter of how long. plus legal fees, as mentioned above, would just not be worth it to seek legal action most likely.

[Weave]

There's an old saying about oral contracts - they aren'y worth the paper they are written on.

 

Yes, they are enforceable, the rub is identifying the terms.

 

Truth. And a pretty major detail too.

 

First suggestion:

Has "your friend" talked to them and asked whats up? If so, what is the response?

 

I think your friend needs to either accept an 8-12 month gap in payment for services rendered or resign himself to the fact he will no longer be working for this company.

 

Once he does, the recommended course of action depends on how much he is owed. If a lot, play hard ball with a lawyer.

 

If a little, notify them immediately that you have not been paid, they don't have the right to use your product (even though they probably do) and bring an action in small claim or the civil section of your supreme court if your county or their county has it.

 

This all seems like sound advice to me but I'm not a lawyer. IMO regardless of the amount owed I think a conversation with a lawyer is a wise move. Unless the amount owed isn't worth a consultation fee of course.

 

I'm of the thought that I would contact the company in question and ask where that money is and if I didn't like the answer I would inform them of my intent to explore legal options. That payment via "employee rewards" when he/she isn't an employee sounds very shady to me. My gut tells me that this company isn't going to want the involvement of lawyers.

 

What state is this company located in? Your friend might want to contact the agency that handles labor issues in that state if collection becomes problematic.

[Weave]

we're not talking LOADS of money here, but certainly a large enough amount to be concerned about. i'm told that, dating back to november, we're probably talking in the ballpark of 3500-4500$$. it's not a life or death situation and i think ultimately he'll just wait it out... it's not a heavy work load and the money WILL come eventually, it's just a matter of how long. plus legal fees, as mentioned above, would just not be worth it to seek legal action most likely.

 

An hour consult with an attorney is worth it to me to try to enforce payment of ~$4,000.

 

The big question he has to ask himself is, is collecting all the money owed worth ending the business relationship? Because if he forces this company's hand they will like go elsewhere for the services.

 

It is def a good idea to get some legal advice (just a consultation) about the path to take if he ever finds that payment is just not going to come. It sounds to me like there is a very real risk of non-payment (as opposed to late payment) here. I'd want to be prepared in advance for that eventuality.

[korab rules]

Truth. And a pretty major detail too.

 

 

 

This all seems like sound advice to me but I'm not a lawyer. IMO regardless of the amount owed I think a conversation with a lawyer is a wise move. Unless the amount owed isn't worth a consultation fee of course.

 

I'm of the thought that I would contact the company in question and ask where that money is and if I didn't like the answer I would inform them of my intent to explore legal options. That payment via "employee rewards" when he/she isn't an employee sounds very shady to me. My gut tells me that this company isn't going to want the involvement of lawyers.

 

What state is this company located in? Your friend might want to contact the agency that handles labor issues in that state if collection becomes problematic.

 

Oh, I'm not a lawyer. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

Lets hope they use lots of bleach when laundering the sheets. :thumbsup:

[thesportsbuff]

An hour consult with an attorney is worth it to me to try to enforce payment of ~$4,000.

 

The big question he has to ask himself is, is collecting all the money owed worth ending the business relationship? Because if he forces this company's hand they will like go elsewhere for the services.

 

It is def a good idea to get some legal advice (just a consultation) about the path to take if he ever finds that payment is just not going to come. It sounds to me like there is a very real risk of non-payment (as opposed to late payment) here. I'd want to be prepared in advance for that eventuality.

 

I think that is the big thing he's debating on-- certainly if he warns of taking legal action, he might get his money, but that will be the end of it. It's not every day you find a job that you can make an extra 4-500$ a month for working on a computer a few hours a day, even if it does come ridiculously late. I'm not sure it'd be worth ending the relationship entirely. He's not exactly pressed for cash, so he's leaning towards just waiting it out... the freedom you get working at home, on your own hours, etc are almost worth the wait to him. He really does not want to LOSE the job, but is just extremely frustrated with the whole process. i'll certainly suggest a consultation.

 

thanks again for the replies weave

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I don't know who the company is or what they do, but it sounds like they have always had an amicable relationship....so if it is getting tougher and tougher to get the cash....they might be in big trouble.

 

He needs leverage. Think of who might be getting paid on time or big customers....ask the company if they are getting paid on time....or should he go ask them himself? He could do it in a nice way so it doesn't seem threatening...but get the message across that you smell weakness and are not to thrilled with getting yanked around while others "more important" are getting taken care of.

 

You have to be prepared to not count on them as a revenue source going forward, but if they are getting worse and worse...they might not be around for long anyway. It sounds like a culture of delay has been built in, so that is tough to shake. Sounds like a typical small business trying to juggle too many balls at once.

 

Everyone is different, but Drane doesn't use lawyers. ;)

[spndnchz]

An hour consult with an attorney is worth it to me to try to enforce payment of ~$4,000.

 

The big question he has to ask himself is, is collecting all the money owed worth ending the business relationship? Because if he forces this company's hand they will like go elsewhere for the services.

 

It is def a good idea to get some legal advice (just a consultation) about the path to take if he ever finds that payment is just not going to come. It sounds to me like there is a very real risk of non-payment (as opposed to late payment) here. I'd want to be prepared in advance for that eventuality.

 

Depends if they are an LLC or just "winging it". An LLC can be bankrupt with no repercussions.

 

An agreed upon, in writing stance needs to be had. Most advertisers, etc., will have additional "late fees" added onto the original amount after 30 days.

 

FWIW, sounds like, cut ties, go to small claims court, sans lawyer, find a new gig with a new place.

 

Good luck.

[Eleven]

I don't know why I just saw this thread for the first time, but I did. Jack, if your friend still needs help, PM me with his name, the name of his company if he has one, and the name of the company he did the work for.