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Around the NHL 2011-2012

spndnchz

By spndnchz
in The Aud Club

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shrader Hall of Famer

shrader

Posted
Posted

There is a huge difference between penalties and supplemental discipline. What Tootoo did was covered by the 5 minutes, the game misconduct and the Sabres reaction. That should be it. Any supplemental action at this point is gratuitous.

I see and agree with DeLuca's POV here and noone is going to accuse me of being a Sabre hater. I simply did not find Tootoo's actions to be egregious enough to be suspension-worthy. I feel the same about the Lucic hit as well. 5 and a game is mor ethan enough really. I don't get the outrage. I really don't. About the only point I heard that I can agree with is Ruff's rant about the 1 minute powerplay. I get that. It pissed me off too. But supplemental discipline for a charge that didn't involve the side boards? Meh.

 

The whole "the penalty was enough" defense comes up quite a bit in these situations. That always leaves me asking what kind of incident is worth a suspension then? I'm never really sure what type of standard you guys have. You at least hinted at something there weave with your mentioning of the side boards (but obviously there are limits to that, like say if someone were to do some crazy superman dive in open ice at a guy's head).

Weave Hall of Famer

Weave

Posted
Posted

The whole "the penalty was enough" defense comes up quite a bit in these situations. That always leaves me asking what kind of incident is worth a suspension then? I'm never really sure what type of standard you guys have. You at least hinted at something there weave with your mentioning of the side boards (but obviously there are limits to that, like say if someone were to do some crazy superman dive in open ice at a guy's head).

 

The danger inherent with a check into the side boards leaves me willing to see suspensions for dirty hits there. Elbows up or shoulders targeting the head get included everywhere. Obvious targeting of the head is automatic. Leaping starts to get into an area I'd consider. I know Tootoo left the ice with his hit so I understand the league taking a look. But overall, I didn't see anything overly egregious in that play. I realize I'm in the minority.

dEnnis the Menace First Liner

dEnnis the Menace

Posted
Posted

Vanek has not improved since 2007? Amazing… Where do you guys get this stuff? -Has he ever played with a true one play making , physical center. -Not drawn the shutdown line when the opposing teams matchup permits it -Do the good teams double him in certain situations -Has he ever played on a line that could maintain possession in the offensive zone consistently for more than 30 seconds against a physical team? -Has the Sabre’s PP been a real threat since 2008? The Sabers’ are loaded with play small wingers and centers. Most of the wingers are shoot first personalities. They are like drugs to Darcy. He has to have them. He built this team for speed and finesse. Lindy has incorporated the typr into his offensive scheme. The best two playmakers are Jason Pominville and Thomas Vanek. They are both on the same line. I love Pom but he is not O zone puck possession guy. In a post season game when the opposing team takes time and space away he is too easily neutralized. When Roy is centering the line it is woefully undersized especially against a Philly, Boston, Tampa, style team. So for four years we have had our most expensive set piece and most dangerous offensive threat playing on a line that was never built around him. Never built to minimize his defects and maximize his potential. No playmaking physical center, no puck possession winger with good hands and a scoring touch on the other side. As a matter of fact , ownership went out of its way to get rid of those pieces when they had them and refused to acquire new ones when they had the chance. Try some beef on that line lindy. Give Vanek a run with Kassian and Adam or Kassian, Hecht . At this point give Leino a shot at center. Use two lines ..big line agianst physical teams and Pom Vanek Leino or Hecht against finesse teams. Do something. It has been four years. If you can not assemble two effective scoring lines , then build the best one line team you can but build it to play against the others teams shutdown line.

 

The return key is your friend. that was a tough read, but I disagree with a few points. (1) being moving Ville back to center and (2) being splitting TV and JP for any reason.

 

I wouldn't mind putting Adam back on the top line though.

nfreeman Hall of Famer

nfreeman

Posted
Posted

I see and agree with DeLuca's POV here and noone is going to accuse me of being a Sabre hater. I simply did not find Tootoo's actions to be egregious enough to be suspension-worthy. I feel the same about the Lucic hit as well. 5 and a game is mor ethan enough really. I don't get the outrage. I really don't. About the only point I heard that I can agree with is Ruff's rant about the 1 minute powerplay. I get that. It pissed me off too. But supplemental discipline for a charge that didn't involve the side boards? Meh.

Am I anti-Calgary Flame as well?

 

It comes down to this, If the Sabres would have addressed Lucic the Tootoo play never happens. I'm sick of hearing Lindy crying about protecting goalies when he and his team didn't even think enough to protect their own goalie. Calgary, and most teams, protect their goalies and don't need to be embarrassed into doing it.

You know what the outrage is Weave, it's a way to excuse what the Sabres didn't do with Lucic. Just like what Lindy and the Sabres tried to do right after the Lucic hit this is a smoke screen to distract from the lack of toughness on this team. See how the conversation has shifted from the Sabres lack of response to the League needing to implement supplemental discipline everytime a goalie is touched.

The danger inherent with a check into the side boards leaves me willing to see suspensions for dirty hits there. Elbows up or shoulders targeting the head get included everywhere. Obvious targeting of the head is automatic. Leaping starts to get into an area I'd consider. I know Tootoo left the ice with his hit so I understand the league taking a look. But overall, I didn't see anything overly egregious in that play. I realize I'm in the minority.

 

I don't think anyone disagrees that the Sabres should have responded immediately and forcefully to the Lucic hit, or that their failure to do so was disgraceful.

 

I 100% disagree that no suspension was warranted. Lucic should have been suspended and Tootoo should be. Under the rules, goalies are treated differently from skaters. That's just the truth. You make not like the rule, but it is the rule. And suspensions are warranted in addition to in-game penalties, IMHO, for egregious running of the goalies because otherwise, as Lindy said, the price for running the goalie and potentially knocking him out of the game and/or injuring him is far too low.

 

The question as to whether a forceful response by the Sabres to the Lucic hit, in the absence of a suspension, would have dissuaded Tootoo from running Miller is an interesting one. I think that Tootoo is the kind of guy who would gladly endure a mild pummeling in a scrum if he thought he could run the goalie and only get a 2-minute penalty like Lucic got. I also think if he knew he was looking at, say, an 8-game suspension for running Miller, he wouldn't have done it.

 

That's all well and good, and I agree with it. And again, I don't think he should be suspended (Lucic either), But what I can't stand is BS. I don't want to hear from Tootoo that he was just playing the puck and ran out of room or that he was pushed into Miller by the Sabre. He stopped playing the puck and made a decision to hit Miller. Plain and simple. I don't want to hear that Lucic looked up and saw how close he was to Miller and couldn't stop. B...S...! They both knew exactly what they were doing and they both made a conscious decision to stop playing the puck and hit a goalie.

 

Fine. They both got penalties. But if it keeps happening, and it looks like it might (just as Ruff said it would) then it is the league's responsibility to step in and hand down stiffer penalties to try and stop it.

 

I agree that the claims that Lucic and Tootoo hit Miller unintentionally are complete BS. I also agree that only suspensions will stop goalie-running from happening.

 

Yes, Head hits. (I've been talking to Rugby players today)

 

It looked like Tootoo contacted the head...if the puck doesn't come off the stick Miller, Miller has his hands down and has to eat that head first. It's dirty. The response was good. But it should still be a suspension.

 

100% correct.

 

Everyone needs to ask themselves one question. Why the Sabres? It's not just coincidence. It's a league wide epidemic that only seems to effecting the Sabres.

 

Wrong.

 

Agreed x that its not only affecting the Sabres. It will become league wide and Shammy will have one big hornets nest on his hands that he could have put a stop to with a 1 or 2 game suspension to Lucic. At the same time the Sabres management is negligent in not having a roster that is able to take this into their own hands and police this situation themselves. Regiers and Ruffs problem is they are waiting for and expecting the league to protect their players when the league has never been good at protecting the players.

 

Certainly you are right that the team shouldn't have sat on their hands after the Lucic hit. If they did so because they thought the NHL would take care of it, that was foolish. But it's pretty clear that Ruff and Regier were very unhappy with the team's response to the Lucic hit.

 

WOW anyone see this Phaneuf hit? Absolute MURDER

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45o3I9Sdlso

 

I saw it last night. Brutal but not dirty IMHO.

korab rules Second Liner

korab rules

Posted
Posted

In a nutshell, Deluca argues there are penalties in place for the conduct of Lucic and Tootoo - the penalties are sufficient, and it is up to the players to handle things themselves if they want to prevent teams from taking those kinds of liberties in future. The problem with DeLuca's argument is that the league punishes retaliation for incidents like this more than it punishes the original deed. Instigator penalties, misconducts, and multiple game suspensions result when players beat down an unwilling opponent and perhaps leave the bench to do so.

 

So the advantage is placed with the team of the original perpetrator when the victim's team does what DeLuca suggests. If the league does what it has done to this point and teams do as DeLuca suggests, the incentive will be for teams to run the goalie and cause the other team to retaliate and take more penalties than the original offense.

 

This clearly is NOT what the league wants. So, in order to provide a disincentive to players running goalies, the league needs to impart supplemental discipline when warranted to prevent vigilante justice.

 

The league has legislated away the means to deal with problems like this - they can't do that and then not deal with the perpetrator.

Bmwolf21 First Liner

Bmwolf21

Posted
Posted

In a nutshell, Deluca argues there are penalties in place for the conduct of Lucic and Tootoo - the penalties are sufficient, and it is up to the players to handle things themselves if they want to prevent teams from taking those kinds of liberties in future. The problem with DeLuca's argument is that the league punishes retaliation for incidents like this more than it punishes the original deed. Instigator penalties, misconducts, and multiple game suspensions result when players beat down an unwilling opponent and perhaps leave the bench to do so.

 

So the advantage is placed with the team of the original perpetrator when the victim's team does what DeLuca suggests. If the league does what it has done to this point and teams do as DeLuca suggests, the incentive will be for teams to run the goalie and cause the other team to retaliate and take more penalties than the original offense.

 

This clearly is NOT what the league wants. So, in order to provide a disincentive to players running goalies, the league needs to impart supplemental discipline when warranted to prevent vigilante justice.

 

The league has legislated away the means to deal with problems like this - they can't do that and then not deal with the perpetrator.

 

Exactly. The league acts like it wants things handled on the ice, but at the same time have effectively neutered teams' ability to respond because of their rule changes regarding instigators, etc.

X. Benedict All Star

X. Benedict

Posted
Posted

You honestly believe that play had the same intent has the two hits on Miller?

Aren't you the one that honestly believe that Miller is the first person Tootoo has cheap shot-ed?

 

Most of these guys can stop on a dime....my honest belief is that most contact that bowls a goalie over is intentional.

Booth's is really close......probably not a suspension, but pretty suspect.

deluca67 All Star

deluca67

Posted
Posted

Aren't you the one that honestly believe that Miller is the first person Tootoo has cheap shot-ed?

 

Most of these guys can stop on a dime....my honest belief is that most contact that bowls a goalie over is intentional.

Booth's is really close......probably not a suspension, but pretty suspect.

Lucic and Tootoo ran Miller because the Sabres are an easy mark. They were both 100% intentional. The two game suspension or any longer suspension will never change that. The reaction by Miller and Gaustad goes much further than any suspension. Miller is going to get run again, the Sabres need to continue responding. Their next response should be harsher. That will gain the Sabres some of the respect they lost league wide.

 

I loved the play Booth made. Drive the net hard and without fear. i wish the Sabres had players that would drive the net that hard.

X. Benedict All Star

X. Benedict

Posted
Posted

Lucic and Tootoo ran Miller because the Sabres are an easy mark.

With Lucic..

If it was another NE division goalie Cary Price, Reimer, or Anderson, the exact same thing happens.

 

Tootoo happened because he knew Miller was concussed. It's that simple to me.

 

 

They were both 100% intentional. The two game suspension or any longer suspension will never change that. The reaction by Miller and Gaustad goes much further than any suspension. Miller is going to get run again, the Sabres need to continue responding. Their next response should be harsher. That will gain the Sabres some of the respect they lost league wide.

No it doesn't. When a player knows he has to avoid that contact or face a second multiple suspension it makes more of a difference than getting popped in the nose. He expects the pop in the nose.

 

 

I loved the play Booth made. Drive the net hard and without fear. i wish the Sabres had players that would drive the net that hard.

 

I'm suspecting even Booth isn't proud of that play.

Eleven Hall of Famer

Eleven

Posted
Posted

Lucic and Tootoo ran Miller because the Sabres are an easy mark. They were both 100% intentional. The two game suspension or any longer suspension will never change that. The reaction by Miller and Gaustad goes much further than any suspension. Miller is going to get run again, the Sabres need to continue responding. Their next response should be harsher. That will gain the Sabres some of the respect they lost league wide.

 

I loved the play Booth made. Drive the net hard and without fear. i wish the Sabres had players that would drive the net that hard.

 

What about the response on the Booth play? Soft? Has Sutter coached the toughness out of the team? You have been very noticeably silent on that issue.

HopefulFuture Third Liner

HopefulFuture

Posted
Posted

Bob McKenzie on TSN Tonight was asked that since Carolina looks like they may be a ways away from contending, would Carolina consider moving Eric Staal or Cam Ward as part of a rebuild. McKenzie said, right up front, not to take this as endorsement that it will happen, that Carolina has had discussions or that Carolina has even considered it, but he said that he believes Carolina may have to consider moving one or both of them in order to build the team for the future.

qwksndmonster All Star

qwksndmonster

Posted
Posted

Bob McKenzie on TSN Tonight was asked that since Carolina looks like they may be a ways away from contending, would Carolina consider moving Eric Staal or Cam Ward as part of a rebuild. McKenzie said, right up front, not to take this as endorsement that it will happen, that Carolina has had discussions or that Carolina has even considered it, but he said that he believes Carolina may have to consider moving one or both of them in order to build the team for the future.

Do want.

Weave Hall of Famer

Weave

Posted
Posted

Not that it probably matters much, but the Sabres have a scout at the Rags-Bolts game tonight.

 

Paul Hamilton mentioned this afternoon that an Anaheim scout was at the arena again last night.

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