Will there be anymore deals?

[Robviously]

Well, you are right that Pommer is a good player and that the cap is catching up to his deal, but he is still well overpaid, and I would have to say NFW would he get $5MM x 5 years as a UFA. For that kind of money, teams want difference-makers, and Pommer is much more of a complementary player, albeit a reasonably skilled one. (Of course, it only takes one GM to make a bonehead move, so you could be right.) I'd much rather dump Kotalik's contract than Pommer's, but I'd still rather dump Pommer's contract than Hecht's.

We've been talking about Pominville being overpaid for years, but Pominville had 68, 80, 66, and 62 points from 2006-2007 to 2009-2010 (82 games each year). Last year he had 52 points in 73 games after a severe concussion.

 

Ville Leino will make almost the same as Pominville for the next six years and he's had ONE big season where he had 53 points in 81 games (last year).

 

So either Pominville isn't really overpaid (and never was) or Leino is REALLY overpaid. Hmmmm.

[LGR4GM]

Well, you are right that Pommer is a good player and that the cap is catching up to his deal, but he is still well overpaid, and I would have to say NFW would he get $5MM x 5 years as a UFA. For that kind of money, teams want difference-makers, and Pommer is much more of a complementary player, albeit a reasonably skilled one. (Of course, it only takes one GM to make a bonehead move, so you could be right.) I'd much rather dump Kotalik's contract than Pommer's, but I'd still rather dump Pommer's contract than Hecht's.

 

But look at the TC deal or even the Leino deal. These are players who have never produced on Pommers Level or consistency and they are making 4.5 and 4.75 respectively next year. Now granted I am saying Pominville is not injured in this scenario but If TC and Leino get what they got then Pommmers could easily pull down 5mil as his cap hit.

 

We don't value pommers the way we should: 60-70pt guy who is never a liability and can play in all situations. Hes good enough to play on your 1st line but doesn't have the ego and would be fine on your 2nd line. I think this past season was an exception to pommers usual which is on average 65pts +7 or so with a couple of gwg. If he was a UFA not on this team he would have been 2nd overall in the UFA pool and the sabres would have gobbled him up. And we as fans would be thrilled. Hes the sort of steady vet you want on a team. He had 4 pts 1g, 3a in 5gp in the playoffs this past season and even though Philly scored a ton he was +-0.

 

I am just saying that pominville's value continues to climb even though, yes he will never be a "game changer" he is a dependable 2 way forward with a pretty good offensive upside and thats worth, right now in the NHL, about 5mil. Would I love it if he made say 4.5? yes, but I would rather have him at 5.3 then not have him at all. Stafford has a better goal scoring touch but Pommers is a better all around player and thats currently reflected in their respective salaries.

 

Now on to Tyler Ennis. 21 yr old Rookie who scored 49 pts on a team without any centers and he did it by working hard and playing on a level that got me excited. He had 2g an 2a in the playoffs and 1 was an OT winner. Hes not a big guy but he skates so well that big guys seem to have a problem handling him and he is resilient and durable kinda like his buddy Gerbe. Ennis was a player that I wanted to see with the puck when the game was on the line because he had the ability to do something with it. He shot on goal 210 times last year and I think that number will prob go up. Shooting is something the sabres sometimes forget to do.

 

His hands are amazing and hes only just 21. He is by far the best skater on the team and possible with the exception of Vanek the best puckhandler. I wouldn't trade Ennis for anything other than in a deal for guys like Malkin, or straight up for Couture or Pavelski. Ennis I think will go from 49pts to 65pts this coming season. I am going to assume either Leino or Roy will be his centerman and I think that no matter what his game will get better. (yes i am predicting no sophmore slump.)

 

His downside may be his size/weight but as we saw with Tyler Myers at the start of last season, sometimes players putting on weight is a bad thing (although I think Ennis needs to gain about 10 lbs of muscle so he can be more effective). Ennis only other downside could be his tendency to hold the puck a little to long, although unlike Max who seemed to only figure it out in random games, Ennis figured out he needs to pass for the whole second half of the season and I think he is able to generate good offense by being a puck controller. I would love to see Ennis and Vanek on a line but that won't happen. (Ennis skates around and shoots and Vanek's quick hands collect rebounds and Vanek can also take passes in the high slot and score.)

 

Whats my point? Tyler Ennis is going to be a very good hockey player. 65pts a season would be my low ball estimate for him going forward and depending on how he develops he could go as high IMO as 75-85pts depending on his center (cantenucci anyone?). I would be hesitant as a GM to trade Ennis not because I love him and hes the next Perreault but because he has the potential to be and after him there is a steep drop off in LW Talent (no offense to Gerbe but hes a 2nd liner at best (i do love gerbe kids got more heart than a cardiologist's office)) Think of it this way, Stafford has been around for 5 seasons and just finally topped 50pts, Ennis hit 49 as a rookie and looked damn good doing it.

 

Just some food for thought on a couple of players that this team currently has and therefore does not need.

[Gramps]

Now on to Tyler Ennis. 21 yr old Rookie who scored 49 pts on a team without any centers and he did it by working hard and playing on a level that got me excited. He had 2g an 2a in the playoffs and 1 was an OT winner. Hes not a big guy but he skates so well that big guys seem to have a problem handling him and he is resilient and durable kinda like his buddy Gerbe. Ennis was a player that I wanted to see with the puck when the game was on the line because he had the ability to do something with it. He shot on goal 210 times last year and I think that number will prob go up. Shooting is something the sabres sometimes forget to do.

 

His hands are amazing and hes only just 21. He is by far the best skater on the team and possible with the exception of Vanek the best puckhandler. I wouldn't trade Ennis for anything other than in a deal for guys like Malkin, or straight up for Couture or Pavelski. Ennis I think will go from 49pts to 65pts this coming season. I am going to assume either Leino or Roy will be his centerman and I think that no matter what his game will get better. (yes i am predicting no sophmore slump.)

 

His downside may be his size/weight but as we saw with Tyler Myers at the start of last season, sometimes players putting on weight is a bad thing (although I think Ennis needs to gain about 10 lbs of muscle so he can be more effective). Ennis only other downside could be his tendency to hold the puck a little to long, although unlike Max who seemed to only figure it out in random games, Ennis figured out he needs to pass for the whole second half of the season and I think he is able to generate good offense by being a puck controller. I would love to see Ennis and Vanek on a line but that won't happen. (Ennis skates around and shoots and Vanek's quick hands collect rebounds and Vanek can also take passes in the high slot and score.)

 

Whats my point? Tyler Ennis is going to be a very good hockey player. 65pts a season would be my low ball estimate for him going forward and depending on how he develops he could go as high IMO as 75-85pts depending on his center (cantenucci anyone?). I would be hesitant as a GM to trade Ennis not because I love him and hes the next Perreault but because he has the potential to be and after him there is a steep drop off in LW Talent (no offense to Gerbe but hes a 2nd liner at best (i do love gerbe kids got more heart than a cardiologist's office)) Think of it this way, Stafford has been around for 5 seasons and just finally topped 50pts, Ennis hit 49 as a rookie and looked damn good doing it.

 

Who does Ennis remind you of ? Well, to me Ennis is a young Martin St Louis who will only get better with age (as Marty did) ... if fact Ennis scored more points than St. Louis in his first full season in the

league. IMO, we'd be crazy to trade him ... if given a choice, I'd rather see Boyes/Pommers go if bodies are needed for an upgrade at center.

[Bullwinkle]

 

Now on to Tyler Ennis. 21 yr old Rookie who scored 49 pts on a team without any centers and he did it by working hard and playing on a level that got me excited. He had 2g an 2a in the playoffs and 1 was an OT winner. Hes not a big guy but he skates so well that big guys seem to have a problem handling him and he is resilient and durable kinda like his buddy Gerbe. Ennis was a player that I wanted to see with the puck when the game was on the line because he had the ability to do something with it. He shot on goal 210 times last year and I think that number will prob go up. Shooting is something the sabres sometimes forget to do.

 

His hands are amazing and hes only just 21. He is by far the best skater on the team and possible with the exception of Vanek the best puckhandler. I wouldn't trade Ennis for anything other than in a deal for guys like Malkin, or straight up for Couture or Pavelski. Ennis I think will go from 49pts to 65pts this coming season. I am going to assume either Leino or Roy will be his centerman and I think that no matter what his game will get better. (yes i am predicting no sophmore slump.)

 

His downside may be his size/weight but as we saw with Tyler Myers at the start of last season, sometimes players putting on weight is a bad thing (although I think Ennis needs to gain about 10 lbs of muscle so he can be more effective). Ennis only other downside could be his tendency to hold the puck a little to long, although unlike Max who seemed to only figure it out in random games, Ennis figured out he needs to pass for the whole second half of the season and I think he is able to generate good offense by being a puck controller. I would love to see Ennis and Vanek on a line but that won't happen. (Ennis skates around and shoots and Vanek's quick hands collect rebounds and Vanek can also take passes in the high slot and score.)

 

Whats my point? Tyler Ennis is going to be a very good hockey player. 65pts a season would be my low ball estimate for him going forward and depending on how he develops he could go as high IMO as 75-85pts depending on his center (cantenucci anyone?). I would be hesitant as a GM to trade Ennis not because I love him and hes the next Perreault but because he has the potential to be and after him there is a steep drop off in LW Talent (no offense to Gerbe but hes a 2nd liner at best (i do love gerbe kids got more heart than a cardiologist's office)) Think of it this way, Stafford has been around for 5 seasons and just finally topped 50pts, Ennis hit 49 as a rookie and looked damn good doing it.

 

Just some food for thought on a couple of players that this team currently has and therefore does not need.

 

The bolded sentences are what I'm trying to say. I figured I'd be misunderstood as soon as I mentioned Perreault. I'm not saying he's the next Perreault, but he has the capacity to be very, VERY good!

 

Comparing Ennis to Afinogenov? Yeah, he skated fast but when he carried the puck everyone knew it wasn't going in the net.

 

Lafontaine was a different kind of player who brought a different dynamic. I can't recall him ever missing a clean breakaway. He was a terrific playmaker.

 

I've watched 40 years of Sabres hockey, all in my adulthood, and rarely missed a game, so I've seen them all. This kid has got it. Trust me.

[HopefulFuture]

Well how did we have one of the best records in the second half of the season last year?

Normally I wouldn't respond to this since it has absolutely nothing to do with the pivot position comment I just made.

But, since you did ask, I'd like to counter that question with this one.

 

Well how many playoff appearances have we had in the past 4 years, and out of those appearances, how many series did we win?

 

You see, I can do it too, but it has nothing to do with my opinions and comments on the center situation on the Sabres roster.

[HopefulFuture]

The Flyers exploited our glaring weakness at center in the playoffs. You can get away with a significant weakness in the regular season because teams don't gameplan for their opponents. But in the postseason teams gameplan for each other and weaknesses are found and exploited. I don't care if we finish 1st or 8th in our division if we have a team that is going to succeed in the playoffs. To do that they'll need to address the lack of depth and talent at center.

 

It may very well be that Leino solves some of the center depth problem. But it is a gamble. And even if he works out at center we are still lacking in center depth should there be any injuries.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Give this post a +1,000,000,000,000, it speaks powerfully to a whole lot of truthiness.

[Derrico]

Normally I wouldn't respond to this since it has absolutely nothing to do with the pivot position comment I just made.

But, since you did ask, I'd like to counter that question with this one.

 

Well how many playoff appearances have we had in the past 4 years, and out of those appearances, how many series did we win?

 

You see, I can do it too, but it has nothing to do with my opinions and comments on the center situation on the Sabres roster.

 

Oh well thank you for humoring me and responding. You state so clearly that we suck down the middle yet we had one of the best records in the league over the second half of the season. Yes, you do have to win in the playoffs but pushing a team to 7 games (albeit they did have some injuries) who was the undisputed favourite to win the east as late as the trade deadline is nothing to dismiss. I am still of the mindset that it was our D who were pressured to the point where they were rushing outlet passes etc. which lead to our collapse(s). I'd say Sabres management would agree as their first two big acquisitions this offseason were defensemen. As several poster have stated, there is more than one recipe to win the cup and I feel like we're getting there and are one solid two way center away from really contending. I don't think we have the cap space or depth in talent needed to trade for a top end center.

[Braedon]

We've been talking about Pominville being overpaid for years, but Pominville had 68, 80, 66, and 62 points from 2006-2007 to 2009-2010 (82 games each year). Last year he had 52 points in 73 games after a severe concussion.

 

Ville Leino will make almost the same as Pominville for the next six years and he's had ONE big season where he had 53 points in 81 games (last year).

 

So either Pominville isn't really overpaid (and never was) or Leino is REALLY overpaid. Hmmmm.

 

 

This is a great point. I think the perception of overpaying comes from two things 1) bang for your buck and 2) the structure of the contract. Pommer wowed us in 2007 however dropped off the next year, after which he was given that contract. He hasn't returned to that 80 point season has been trending downward in offensive production. Granted, it isn't by much and he continues to be top 3-4 on the team, including this past injury year. However he was signed on a down year relative to the year before and never attained that level again, so that may be the reason.

 

Add the fact that his contract was slightly backloaded, which enhances his decreased production. Mind you, I'm only trying to make sense of why that perception is out there, especially since he's one of the top points getters on our team each year.

 

 

EDIT: I have to laugh with that stance on Pommer, especially when you compare his numbers to Vaneks. I'd say he isn't really overpaid.

[Robviously]

Comparing Ennis to Afinogenov? Yeah, he skated fast but when he carried the puck everyone knew it wasn't going in the net.

Not true. Afinogenov led the Sabres in points with 73 in 2005-2006 (possibly our best team ever) and then averaged more than a point per game in 2006-2007 (61 points in 56 games, +19).

[Rico4Hall12]

Briere was the driving force that created the Population of Pommenvile. Now that the leading citizen has left, Pommenville has more boarded up houses and businesses then the fruit belt on the east side.

[Iron Crotch]

Briere was the driving force that created the Population of Pommenvile. Now that the leading citizen has left, Pommenville has more boarded up houses and businesses then the fruit belt on the east side.

 

Yeah, numbers aside, I think most on this board would agree that Pommer doesn't normally create scoring chances. He does a nice job of getting himself into scoring positions and has an accurate shot. But he is more reliant on the talent around him than some "elite" players. I think of Ennis as a guy who has the potential to create chances on his own in the future with his stick handling and skating ability.

 

(although it should probably be pointed out that Leino played with Briere last year)

[SabresFan526]

The only thing wrong with Pominville is his contract. The same could be said for Thomas Vanek as well. The only contract that is undervalued for the Sabres entire team is Derek Roy's. Every other player is overpaid. Is Gaustad really worth $2.3 million? Considering that, you really have to appreciate what Pominville brings to the team. He is an extremely consistent 20 goal scorer and 60+ point guy. He got less than 60 points in 10 fewer games than he normally plays. If he plays all 82, I bet Pominville gets 25 goals and 60 points this year. No doubt in my mind. He is very consistent. In fact, in his first year in 2005-2006 when he was a mid-season call-up, he scored 18 goals. Every year, he is good for 20 goals, 60 points, PP, PK. He and Derek Roy are the two best all around players on this team. The only problem is that he is slightly overpaid. I'm okay with it considering what he brings and how consistent he is. I'd rather have him on the team than not.

 

If you look at where the cap has been going and where player salaries have been going, it is very easy to say that Pominville is actually paid inline with what he brings statistically. Look at the market, look at the comparables, look at what they are getting paid, and Pominville is actually getting paid right in the same ballpark for players of his ilk. What's not to like besides his contract? Pominville at $4 million or at $4.5 million is exactly what he deserves to make, so he's overpaid by maybe $800K. Not a big deal in my mind.

[carpandean]

Briere was the driving force that created the Population of Pommenvile. Now that the leading citizen has left, Pommenville has more boarded up houses and businesses then the fruit belt on the east side.

Of course, one could point out that his best year, point-wise, by a lot was after Briere left, playing much of the season with Hecht as his center. Danny helped him score more goals, but Jason had far more assists after 2006-07 than he ever did with Briere.

 

Oh, and it's Pominville; one m, two l's.

[deluca67]

Of course, one could point out that his best year, point-wise, by a lot was after Briere left, playing much of the season with Hecht as his center. Danny helped him score more goals, but Jason had far more assists after 2006-07 than he ever did with Briere.

 

Oh, and it's Pominville; one m, two l's.

Why ignore the "e?"

 

Pominville's production has been in a steady decline since the 2007-08 season. This is a player that had 54 5-on-5 goals in 06-07 and 07-08 combined. He has 47 in the three seasons since then. Pominville is clearly not the player the Sabres expected when they gave him the big contract. He is a decent player and has value. His production just falls short of the expectations of the contract. That said, the Pominville contract does looks much better when placed side by side to the Leino contract.

[tom webster]

Why ignore the "e?"

 

Pominville's production has been in a steady decline since the 2007-08 season. This is a player that had 54 5-on-5 goals in 06-07 and 07-08 combined. He has 47 in the three seasons since then. Pominville is clearly not the player the Sabres expected when they gave him the big

contract. He is a decent player and has value. His

production just falls short of the expectations of the

contract. That said, the Pominville contract does looks

much better when placed side by side to the Leino

contract.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Keep walking toward that light.

 

But seriously, I am a big fan of Pominville and have always defended the contract based on the market the time it was signed. That said, I'd love it if they could have at least $1 million of that cap hit back.

[deluca67]

Keep walking toward that light.

 

But seriously, I am a big fan of Pominville and have always defended the contract based on the market the time it was signed. That said, I'd love it if they could have at least $1 million of that cap hit back.

Just trying to tone it down a bit so the opinion doesn't get lost in the perception. :thumbsup:

 

Comparing players is a huge part of this board. Going over numbers I found that production wise that Pominville and Nathan Horton are very comparable. Each have one +30 goal season and Horton has one more 20+ goal season. Horton is the better goal scorer and Pominville is a better setup man. There +/- totals are relatively close with Horton just a little ahead. Where the big gap between the two are is money. Pominville has three years left at $5.3 mil and Horton two at $4 mil. Safe to say that will be drastically changed after both sign their next contracts.

[Braedon]

Why ignore the "e?"

 

Pominville's production has been in a steady decline since the 2007-08 season. This is a player that had 54 5-on-5 goals in 06-07 and 07-08 combined. He has 47 in the three seasons since then. Pominville is clearly not the player the Sabres expected when they gave him the big contract. He is a decent player and has value. His production just falls short of the expectations of the contract. That said, the Pominville contract does looks much better when placed side by side to the Leino contract.

 

 

A telling stat, however what's more glaring to me is his assist total, which has nose-dived since the 07-08 season. How much is it him, and home much is it everyone else on his line? He played a lot with Goose and Hecht in '07-08 but I thought Ruff had him with TC and (Kotalik? Max?) for awhile.

[HopefulFuture]

Oh well thank you for humoring me and responding. You state so clearly that we suck down the middle yet we had one of the best records in the league over the second half of the season. Yes, you do have to win in the playoffs but pushing a team to 7 games (albeit they did have some injuries) who was the undisputed favourite to win the east as late as the trade deadline is nothing to dismiss. I am still of the mindset that it was our D who were pressured to the point where they were rushing outlet passes etc. which lead to our collapse(s). I'd say Sabres management would agree as their first two big acquisitions this offseason were defensemen. As several poster have stated, there is more than one recipe to win the cup and I feel like we're getting there and are one solid two way center away from really contending. I don't think we have the cap space or depth in talent needed to trade for a top end center.

:nana:

 

Thought you might like the humor. But as I have pointed out to others, no where in my comments to I state that it has to be a top line center.

My comments were merely on a depth situation, which, as you look at the Sabres organization, it has a serious problem with center depth.

The example you use on the defensive side on the other hand, does not have this problem.

 

Posters are correct in that there are many different ways to build a winner for a CUP, and addressing the defense the way they did most certainly fits within that 3 year time frame. Let me say that again, addressing the defense the way they did most certainly fits within that 3 year time frame.

The reason I point this out is quite simply, before Pegula, we did not have a time frame for a Cup run.

The center position has been devoid of any depth for 5 years now. The defense has been gutted and young guns brought in to gain experience and to see if they fit in the system, but the center position has had no significant changes in 5 years.

 

I'm of the solid mindset that if you wish to continue within the realm of that 3 year stated objective, you do not need a top center this off season (although, I would have taken a stab at Richards for sure, talent like that doesn't come along often).

What I would expect to see is a solid line 3 center like a Stoll type. Sekera and some picks or even prospects or even another roster player while receiving picks back, but at the end of the day Stoll for Sekera and add in the components most certainly makes our center depth much better.

 

I merely used Stoll as an example, no one is saying he is available or would even thrive in this system, although I personally believe he would as the line 3 center with Boyes and Gerbe on his wings.

 

I am sure there are players out there that fit the mold and can be had, but it's quite clear the Sabres are going to have to do something, they have 3 RFA's currently not signed, Sekera, Gragnani and Enroth and they have very little cap space, not enough to sign all 3 at this time.

 

Something has to give here, and a trade is the most logical solution.

[deluca67]

A telling stat, however what's more glaring to me is his assist total, which has nose-dived since the 07-08 season. How much is it him, and home much is it everyone else on his line? He played a lot with Goose and Hecht in '07-08 but I thought Ruff had him with TC and (Kotalik? Max?) for awhile.

From watching him play I can honestly say it is him. He seems to still be getting his scoring chances. He's just not burying them as he once did. With the puck on his stick on a scoring chance Pominville was at one point as money as you can get. It could be that his role has changed and he no longer finds himself in those money positions as often as he once was making it more difficult. That is a valid counter-point. Is there a website that has scoring charts? I would like to see a comparison of where Pominville's goals are coming from now compared to where they were coming from four years ago.

[Weave]

If the lines play out like I expect Pomminstein is going to be on the #3 line with Hecht and I think that will do wonders for his point totals. He is going to get the same sort of bump that Vanek, Roy, and Max got when they were playing against 3rd liners. And if Gerbe is his LW that will help some more.

 

Pommer and Hecht are very good 3rd line players. I would be suprised if they didn;t excel in that role.

[Derrico]

If the lines play out like I expect Pomminstein is going to be on the #3 line with Hecht and I think that will do wonders for his point totals. He is going to get the same sort of bump that Vanek, Roy, and Max got when they were playing against 3rd liners. And if Gerbe is his LW that will help some more.

 

Pommer and Hecht are very good 3rd line players. I would be suprised if they didn;t excel in that role.

 

I agree, he will be on the third line and he'll do damn well! Just another reason why I'm not sure I want to give up the pieces necessary to acquire that top line center.

[Bullwinkle]

Not true. Afinogenov led the Sabres in points with 73 in 2005-2006 (possibly our best team ever) and then averaged more than a point per game in 2006-2007 (61 points in 56 games, +19).

 

 

And in his year career, that's all he's done. Other than those two years he has averaged less than .5 points a game with the exception of 09-10 in ten years. No, when he touched the puck everyone was hopeful but those hopes didn't last long.

 

When I talk of Ennis having potential, I'm talking about Perreault potential, not Kotalik/Afinogenov potential.

 

And arguably our best team was 79-80.

[carpandean]

Oh, and it's Pominville; one m, two l's.

If the lines play out like I expect Pomminville

:doh:

 

 

 

Sorry, I had to do it. :)

[Robviously]

And in his year career, that's all he's done. Other than those two years he has averaged less than .5 points a game with the exception of 09-10 in ten years. No, when he touched the puck everyone was hopeful but those hopes didn't last long.

Dude, you said Ennis was the first Sabre who was exciting every time he touched the puck. I'm just saying Afinogenov was exciting too. For a while, he was really effective. He was still sort of exciting after he stopped being effective. There was always a response from the crowd in the arena when he got the puck.

 

When I talk of Ennis having potential, I'm talking about Perreault potential, not Kotalik/Afinogenov potential.

I hope you're right, but that's a way higher ceiling than I've ever heard for Ennis. "Perrault potential" is basically the highest praise you could give a young player for the Sabres.

 

And arguably our best team was 79-80.

Arguably, we'd have multiple potential "best teams." We can't know for sure. That's why it's "arguably."

[Weave]

And in his year career, that's all he's done. Other than those two years he has averaged less than .5 points a game with the exception of 09-10 in ten years. No, when he touched the puck everyone was hopeful but those hopes didn't last long.

 

When I talk of Ennis having potential, I'm talking about Perreault potential, not Kotalik/Afinogenov potential.

 

And arguably our best team was 79-80.

 

Aim lower. Perreault is a hall of famer. An elite level talent. Ennis has never been described as having hall of fame potential. When I'm thinking of what Ennis can become I'm thinking closer to Donald Audette than Gilbert Perreault.