Will there be anymore deals?

[X. Benedict]

 

 

It may very well be that Leino solves some of the center depth problem. But it is a gamble. And even if he works out at center we are still lacking in center depth should there be any injuries.

I think Ville will help in the D zone immediately. We'll see how it works on offense.

 

He's a tough player to play against, great patience on the puck, great vision, works well in tight space near the net. Not afraid to go in corners.

 

More than ability, I'm wondering if it is going to work as a matter of chemistry. What I'm not sure about are his entries, and play on the rush. Even if he doesn't work out at center, the bottom end of this deal is still pretty high.

[Weave]

I think Ville will help in the D zone immediately. We'll see how it works on offense.

 

He's a tough player to play against, great patience on the puck, great vision, works well in tight space near the net. Not afraid to go in corners.

 

More than ability, I'm wondering if it is going to work as a matter of chemistry. What I'm not sure about are his entries, and play on the rush. Even if he doesn't work out at center, the bottom end of this deal is still pretty high.

 

Interesting that you think that. Everything I;ve read about Leino suggests that defesive responsibility is not his strong suit. Unless your point was that he'll help the defense by providing that center area outlet pass. And I'd agree with that assessment.

 

I too am concerned a bit about how effective he is at O zone entries. If he can carry the mail into the O zone and set up play than it'll mean our D has to take fewer chances on a 2nd wave rush and we'll have fewer odd man rushes coming back. That would be a nice change of pace.

[nfreeman]

The value of that rumored offer has changed greatly now that Roy should once again be healthy. I think a big part of that "proposed" trade was that Roy was going to be out the remainder of the season. Therefore they would have a #1 center back in their lineup last year as well as going forward. With Roy back it makes no sense. I think Darcy & Co value Roy quite a bit higher than many around here.

I must disagree. Spezza is a much, much better player than Roy. Their playoff stats say it all. As for how DR values Roy -- he was ready to trade him for Spezza, and he was ready to add Kassian to get the deal done (according to Paul Hamilton, anyway) -- and Kassian is a very valuable asset. I expect that if Mumbles called DR today and asked him to revive the trade, DR would do so in a heartbeat.

 

The Flyers exploited our glaring weakness at center in the playoffs. You can get away with a significant weakness in the regular season because teams don't gameplan for their opponents. But in the postseason teams gameplan for each other and weaknesses are found and exploited. I don't care if we finish 1st or 8th in our division if we have a team that is going to succeed in the playoffs. To do that they'll need to address the lack of depth and talent at center.

 

It may very well be that Leino solves some of the center depth problem. But it is a gamble. And even if he works out at center we are still lacking in center depth should there be any injuries.

I found our weakness to be on D in that series. Our young guys played well in some stretches but there certainly were mistakes made on the back end, way too many rebound/second chances.

Philly was able to put so much pressure on our D because they took away center ice. We didn't have the personnel to keep Philly honest through center ice. It eliminated that outlet for passes out of the zone. Consequently Philly's forecheck was extremely effective. If we had the personnel to keep them honest through center ice it would have given more options for outlet passes and reduced the pressure on our defence.

 

Yeah, the defence folded, but it didn't happen in a vacuum. It happened because Philly exploited our weakness at center and eliminated avenues for our defence to initiate breakouts. As a result, the defence was pressured into giveaways and turnovers.

Good hockey talk here, boys. My 2 cents: while I agree that the defense folding didn't happen in a vacuum, and that better center play would've helped, and that I'd love to see the Sabres add a center for any of the top 3 lines (like, say, Drury if his knee passes a physical), I think the center play is well down on the list of factors why the Sabres lost to Philly.

 

My #1 factor would be sub-par defensive play -- and I would guess based on this summer's events that DR and LR agree. My #2 factor would be the same reason the Sabres lost to Boston the previous year -- poor production out of the "top 6." Vanek delivered a few first-period PP goals, but otherwise the top 6 was just as pathetic as they were the previous year vs. the Bruins. There was no sustained pressure on the forecheck and no 3rd-period production when the Sabres really needed something to avoid blowing a lead. My #3 factor would be loss of heart after frittering away game 6 (and after playing with plenty of heart through 6 games) and showing up already beaten for game 7.

[X. Benedict]

Interesting that you think that. Everything I;ve read about Leino suggests that defesive responsibility is not his strong suit. Unless your point was that he'll help the defense by providing that center area outlet pass. And I'd agree with that assessment.

 

I meant the puck support to clear the defensive zone more than I meant coverage high.

But I don't think he's that bad defensively either. At least not a liability.

 

I too am concerned a bit about how effective he is at O zone entries. If he can carry the mail into the O zone and set up play than it'll mean our D has to take fewer chances on a 2nd wave rush and we'll have fewer odd man rushes coming back. That would be a nice change of pace.

 

It might even take some time. I fully expecting him to be called a bust during the first 15 games of the season, before it works. :beer:

[LGR4GM]

Philly was able to put so much pressure on our D because they took away center ice. We didn't have the personnel to keep Philly honest through center ice. It eliminated that outlet for passes out of the zone. Consequently Philly's forecheck was extremely effective. If we had the personnel to keep them honest through center ice it would have given more options for outlet passes and reduced the pressure on our defence.

 

Yeah, the defence folded, but it didn't happen in a vacuum. It happened because Philly exploited our weakness at center and eliminated avenues for our defence to initiate breakouts. As a result, the defence was pressured into giveaways and turnovers.

I agree with you here, but lets expand on it. Because that outlet pass and especially center ice was taken away, along with the inexperience of our defense it all compiled into a team that just was not able to compete in the playoffs. Sure we almost won the series but that was partially due to phillies gt carousel of mediocrity. Our defense learned a valuable lesson from that series and i think going forward our young guys will be better for it. IF Leino can play above TC's level at center then we will have improved. Leino is also 2 years younger than TC so thats a plus. Also remember that our defense will have 82 games to develop before the next playoffs, so thats 82 games more experience. And I am not counting the addition of a Vet like Regehr who from the sound of things is highly respected. Mike Weber was interviewed on WGR and he said that he looked up to Regehr and his own style of play was based on Regehr. Ehrhoff I am interested to see in a sabres jersey because up until the finals he was very solid on the back line. Ehrhoff is also interesting because he was only -2 or more in games the nucks lost and a few of those games are just blowouts (8-1 boston, 4-0 boston) so it should be interesting to see him paired up with a guy like Weber or MAG/Sekera.

 

Here is something else to consider. In the past it felt like it was a given that the rostered players would return year in and year out because they were in-expendable because the organization didn't want to take on salary. Now it is different. From the acquisition of a guy like kotalik just to make the trade work, the sabres are showing that to stay you are going to have to perform because we will make trades, we will send players to Rochester, and we expect to win. Obviously Kotalik was brought in as a salary dump and he wont be in Buf come late September but the fact that this team sees that the sabres will make trades now and not resign players like TC or others lets them know more is expected from them IMO.

 

Our young guns for the most part seem to have great attitudes. Weber, Ennis, MAG, Myers, Gerbe especially seem to be of a different mindset then a guy like pommers who after a loss will say "yes umm we didn't come out hard enough and umm they are a good team and we need to be better to win". It appears this young group is more of the mindset "we didn't work hard enough, we will work harder, we will improve, we will win". It almost feels like they take responsibility for their screw ups versus some of the old guard... This is going to be one hell of season if my gut instinct it right.

[Weave]

I meant the puck support to clear the defensive zone more than I meant coverage high.

But I don't think he's that bad defensively either. At least not a liability.

 

I wasn't really thinking of puck support down low and along the wall but Leino seems to have a rep as a good puck possession guy so he should improve the defense with those skills.

 

It might even take some time. I fully expecting him to be called a bust during the first 15 games of the season, before it works. :beer:

 

 

I could def see this happening.

[Weave]

Good hockey talk here, boys. My 2 cents: while I agree that the defense folding didn't happen in a vacuum, and that better center play would've helped, and that I'd love to see the Sabres add a center for any of the top 3 lines (like, say, Drury if his knee passes a physical), I think the center play is well down on the list of factors why the Sabres lost to Philly.

 

My #1 factor would be sub-par defensive play -- and I would guess based on this summer's events that DR and LR agree. My #2 factor would be the same reason the Sabres lost to Boston the previous year -- poor production out of the "top 6." Vanek delivered a few first-period PP goals, but otherwise the top 6 was just as pathetic as they were the previous year vs. the Bruins. There was no sustained pressure on the forecheck and no 3rd-period production when the Sabres really needed something to avoid blowing a lead. My #3 factor would be loss of heart after frittering away game 6 (and after playing with plenty of heart through 6 games) and showing up already beaten for game 7.

 

I think center ice play factors pretty significantly into the top 2 reasons you listed. :blush:

[BetweenThePipes00]

15 games? If they are trailing after the first 15 MINUTES of the season Leino and Ehrhoff will be flamed to death ... not saying it's right but ... they better start fast.

[X. Benedict]

15 games? If they are trailing after the first 15 MINUTES of the season Leino and Ehrhoff will be flamed to death ... not saying it's right but ... they better start fast.

 

I fully expect it. :D

[LastPommerFan]

I think center ice play factors pretty significantly into the top 2 reasons you listed. :blush:

 

(not all comments below are directed at you, just used the quote as a way of continuing the line of thinking)

 

 

Philly's Forecheck:

 

The entire series I was constantly cursing the errors caused by rushed decisions by the young defensemen on our team (including myers) Timmy and Jochen were pretty strong on recieving the outlet at center ice, more often than not the errors by the blueliners occured when making a rushed play and sending it to the default area (up nearside wing). Philly was indeed playing this, but i don't think it was aas much about taking away the center as rushing the d-menn to the point that they didn't have the capacity to look center and just shot it up the boards because that's what your supposed to do when you don't see a pass. I see what you're saying,

 

Play of the "TOP SIX":

 

Tough to pin it on the top six when Pommer/connoly/roy/hecht missed significant playing time due to injury. Also, the team was on PK a bunch in Alamo Mode for a lot of the 5-5 time. The forwards never trusted the D enough to try and score with the lead.

 

Philly's scoring and the Second Period:

 

The series was lost in the second period. And the second period makes a significant impact primarily on newbie defensemen. The loong change caused extended shifts and tired decisionmaking. lots of missed assignments down low and a ton of bad change rushes coming the other way. I think this is precisely what was being addressed last month. Ehrhoff and Regier, along with Leopold, will allow lindy to set up lines with strong veterans on the Ice at all times. Myers is getting a lot better at playing the far side (a big adjustment for him this past season) and Weber will develop further this season. Grags can work wonders with the puck, especially in space, but his skating is not nearly as good as it could/needs to be. The season may not start any better as the pairs work to gel, but by next february I don't expect we will be allowing better than 41% of our GA during the middle frame. That number is just ludicrous and I think was the driving factor in decisions made this off-season. I don't think they were interested in building a better team for the 82. They were specifically addressing problems from the 7 after that.

[dEnnis the Menace]

 

 

Philly's scoring and the Second Period:

 

 

 

I think Scoring in the second period by the opposition was a problem for the entirety of the year, just proving more so the youth of our team.

 

I think it'll improve a lot more this year....at least I'm optimistic that it will

[Samson's Flow]

I think Scoring in the second period by the opposition was a problem for the entirety of the year, just proving more so the youth of our team.

 

I think it'll improve a lot more this year....at least I'm optimistic that it will

 

Yeah but if I recall it was a pretty obvious detriment in the playoffs when we would get a lead in the first only to see the Fly-boys storm back in the second. Puck possession is the key to solving this problem I believe. Let's hope it has been addressed this offseason.

[LastPommerFan]

I think Scoring in the second period by the opposition was a problem for the entirety of the year, just proving more so the youth of our team.

 

I think it'll improve a lot more this year....at least I'm optimistic that it will

 

 

Yeah but if I recall it was a pretty obvious detriment in the playoffs when we would get a lead in the first only to see the Fly-boys storm back in the second. Puck possession is the key to solving this problem I believe. Let's hope it has been addressed this offseason.

 

By the numbers, the second period problems were just slightly worse against philly than in the reg season. Like Weave said earlier. Philly's staff saw that problem from the regular season then gameplanned for it in the playoffs.

[K-9]

... Philly's scoring and the Second Period:

 

The series was lost in the second period. And the second period makes a significant impact primarily on newbie defensemen. The loong change caused extended shifts and tired decisionmaking. lots of missed assignments down low and a ton of bad change rushes coming the other way. I think this is precisely what was being addressed last month. Ehrhoff and Regier, along with Leopold, will allow lindy to set up lines with strong veterans on the Ice at all times. Myers is getting a lot better at playing the far side (a big adjustment for him this past season) and Weber will develop further this season. Grags can work wonders with the puck, especially in space, but his skating is not nearly as good as it could/needs to be. The season may not start any better as the pairs work to gel, but by next february I don't expect we will be allowing better than 41% of our GA during the middle frame. That number is just ludicrous and I think was the driving factor in decisions made this off-season. I don't think they were interested in building a better team for the 82. They were specifically addressing problems from the 7 after that.

 

Excellent analysis and incite. Our D was exposed by Philly's tenacious forecheck and our guys didn't know how to handle the pressure. Centers not available for outlets? Nope, there weren't any outlets to be had. Our centers spent a good portion of their time in deep trying to shorten things up for the D and even that didn't help, especially in 2nd periods. I ask myself, if Regehr and Erhoff were there would the outcome have been the same? I doubt it. We took care of the biggest reason for losing to Philly when we brought in those two Dmen.

 

GO SABRES!!!

[nfreeman]

(not all comments below are directed at you, just used the quote as a way of continuing the line of thinking)

 

 

Philly's Forecheck:

 

The entire series I was constantly cursing the errors caused by rushed decisions by the young defensemen on our team (including myers) Timmy and Jochen were pretty strong on recieving the outlet at center ice, more often than not the errors by the blueliners occured when making a rushed play and sending it to the default area (up nearside wing). Philly was indeed playing this, but i don't think it was aas much about taking away the center as rushing the d-menn to the point that they didn't have the capacity to look center and just shot it up the boards because that's what your supposed to do when you don't see a pass. I see what you're saying,

 

Play of the "TOP SIX":

 

Tough to pin it on the top six when Pommer/connoly/roy/hecht missed significant playing time due to injury. Also, the team was on PK a bunch in Alamo Mode for a lot of the 5-5 time. The forwards never trusted the D enough to try and score with the lead.

 

Philly's scoring and the Second Period:

 

The series was lost in the second period. And the second period makes a significant impact primarily on newbie defensemen. The loong change caused extended shifts and tired decisionmaking. lots of missed assignments down low and a ton of bad change rushes coming the other way. I think this is precisely what was being addressed last month. Ehrhoff and Regier, along with Leopold, will allow lindy to set up lines with strong veterans on the Ice at all times. Myers is getting a lot better at playing the far side (a big adjustment for him this past season) and Weber will develop further this season. Grags can work wonders with the puck, especially in space, but his skating is not nearly as good as it could/needs to be. The season may not start any better as the pairs work to gel, but by next february I don't expect we will be allowing better than 41% of our GA during the middle frame. That number is just ludicrous and I think was the driving factor in decisions made this off-season. I don't think they were interested in building a better team for the 82. They were specifically addressing problems from the 7 after that.

I agree with much of this, except:

 

1. Hecht played only 1 game in the series and was basically useless (for the 2nd playoffs in a row, btw).

 

2. I think you are being too generous to the top 6. Pommer didn't get hurt until game 5, and TC until game 6. I didn't like either of their play in this series. Ennis was OK, Boyes was invisible and Stafford while playing with more determination than his numbers would indicate was still unproductive. Even Vanek, who undeniably lit the lamp on the PP, was nowhere to be found in the 3rd period when a goal here or there would've swung the series.

 

I thought the Sabres were unable to create sustained pressure 5-on-5 mostly because Philly's defensemen were better than the Sabres' forwards, especially given the familiarity and intensity of the playoffs. I'll also note that a number of the Sabres' goals were the result of poor goaltending by Philly -- not of strong offensive play by the Sabres.

[LastPommerFan]

I agree with much of this, except:

 

1. Hecht played only 1 game in the series and was basically useless (for the 2nd playoffs in a row, btw).

 

2. I think you are being too generous to the top 6. Pommer didn't get hurt until game 5, and TC until game 6. I didn't like either of their play in this series. Ennis was OK, Boyes was invisible and Stafford while playing with more determination than his numbers would indicate was still unproductive. Even Vanek, who undeniably lit the lamp on the PP, was nowhere to be found in the 3rd period when a goal here or there would've swung the series.

I thought the Sabres were unable to create sustained pressure 5-on-5 mostly because Philly's defensemen were better than the Sabres' forwards, especially given the familiarity and intensity of the playoffs. I'll also note that a number of the Sabres' goals were the result of poor goaltending by Philly -- not of strong offensive play by the Sabres.

 

I differ in this area. I think our lack of production was due more to lack of opportunities as a result of turnovers in the neutral zone and while trying to exit the defensive zone.

[Bullwinkle]

Yep, I agree with you. As long as they don't trade away our top 6 and find a way to get under the cap then I'm all for it. I think using a Kassian and Sekera plus the other team willing to take Pommers may land us a big guy. And it would help our salary cap situation with JP traded to fit the center we get under the cap. By the way I'm not contradicting myself, I think that Pommers is a good fit four our third line, not the top 2.

 

Pomminstein is overpaid but has a NTC. I think we're stuck with him for the next three years.

[LGR4GM]

Pomminstein is overpaid but has a NTC. I think we're stuck with him for the next three years.

...modified ntc in which he can select 8 teams he won't accept trades too. Remember that Pominville is a 60-70pt player and will not be a minus on your team. He can play 5v5, pp, and pk very well and can also score, pass, and skate well. I would not be so eager to trade Pominville as each year that passes his contract becomes much closer to what he is worth. If he hit UFA this year I guarantee he would make 5mil for 5 years easy.

[Derrico]

...modified ntc in which he can select 8 teams he won't accept trades too. Remember that Pominville is a 60-70pt player and will not be a minus on your team. He can play 5v5, pp, and pk very well and can also score, pass, and skate well. I would not be so eager to trade Pominville as each year that passes his contract becomes much closer to what he is worth. If he hit UFA this year I guarantee he would make 5mil for 5 years easy.

 

He's decent to good in his own zone but the last three seasons he was +1, +13, -4. Not sure I can say he WILL NOT be a minus player. It's nice to want to trade for this #1 Center but not only do we have to give up talent but we have to give up salary as well. As far as being overpaid Pommers is right up near the top. *Disclaimer - I know there will be several replies trying to prove that we have several overpaid forwards which may be true so please dont. Trading a guy like Ennis will help persuade a team to make the deal but will not help us stay under the cap!

[Bullwinkle]

He's decent to good in his own zone but the last three seasons he was +1, +13, -4. Not sure I can say he WILL NOT be a minus player. It's nice to want to trade for this #1 Center but not only do we have to give up talent but we have to give up salary as well. As far as being overpaid Pommers is right up near the top. *Disclaimer - I know there will be several replies trying to prove that we have several overpaid forwards which may be true so please dont. Trading a guy like Ennis will help persuade a team to make the deal but will not help us stay under the cap!

 

I would not trade Ennis. Too much potential - the kid's only 21. This kid is exciting every time he touches the puck and I haven't said that about any Sabre since watching Gil Perreault break into the league in 1970. No way would he be a part of a deal if I were GM. Better to trade commodities that have proven their value...Vanek, Pomminstein or Gaustad.

[Bullwinkle]

...modified ntc in which he can select 8 teams he won't accept trades too. Remember that Pominville is a 60-70pt player and will not be a minus on your team. He can play 5v5, pp, and pk very well and can also score, pass, and skate well. I would not be so eager to trade Pominville as each year that passes his contract becomes much closer to what he is worth. If he hit UFA this year I guarantee he would make 5mil for 5 years easy.

 

 

I know it's a modified NTC. Thing is, we would probably want to trade him to a team that is under the salary cap which is just the kind of team that would be on his list.

[BetweenThePipes00]

I would not trade Ennis. Too much potential - the kid's only 21. This kid is exciting every time he touches the puck and I haven't said that about any Sabre since watching Gil Perreault break into the league in 1970. No way would he be a part of a deal if I were GM. Better to trade commodities that have proven their value...Vanek, Pomminstein or Gaustad.

 

Easy, big fella ... he had a very nice rookie season but he's not even LaFontaine, let alone Perreault.

 

And Zhitnik was exciting every time he touched the puck too ... you never knew if he was going to turn it into a scoring chance for the other team or put a slapshot into a teammate's ear ;)

[nfreeman]

...modified ntc in which he can select 8 teams he won't accept trades too. Remember that Pominville is a 60-70pt player and will not be a minus on your team. He can play 5v5, pp, and pk very well and can also score, pass, and skate well. I would not be so eager to trade Pominville as each year that passes his contract becomes much closer to what he is worth. If he hit UFA this year I guarantee he would make 5mil for 5 years easy.

Well, you are right that Pommer is a good player and that the cap is catching up to his deal, but he is still well overpaid, and I would have to say NFW would he get $5MM x 5 years as a UFA. For that kind of money, teams want difference-makers, and Pommer is much more of a complementary player, albeit a reasonably skilled one. (Of course, it only takes one GM to make a bonehead move, so you could be right.) I'd much rather dump Kotalik's contract than Pommer's, but I'd still rather dump Pommer's contract than Hecht's.

 

I would not trade Ennis. Too much potential - the kid's only 21. This kid is exciting every time he touches the puck and I haven't said that about any Sabre since watching Gil Perreault break into the league in 1970. No way would he be a part of a deal if I were GM. Better to trade commodities that have proven their value...Vanek, Pomminstein or Gaustad.

Bert? Really?

 

I wouldn't trade Ennis unless the Sabres were getting back a bona fide star center, but in that case, he's available.

[LastPommerFan]

Don't Hate.

[Robviously]

I would not trade Ennis. Too much potential - the kid's only 21. This kid is exciting every time he touches the puck and I haven't said that about any Sabre since watching Gil Perreault break into the league in 1970. No way would he be a part of a deal if I were GM. Better to trade commodities that have proven their value...Vanek, Pomminstein or Gaustad.

Afinogenov was exciting every time he touched the puck too.

 

I'd trade him (Ennis) as the key part of a deal to land a no.1 center.