drnkirishone Posted June 2, 2011 Report Posted June 2, 2011 A power forward is someone that is strong along the walls being able to dig pucks out and recover them and is able to be effective in front of the opposing net, should be good on the forecheck, also they should have a physical edge to their game. That does not mean they just go around steamrolling guys, it means they are strong on their skates and when a defenseman lines them up the forward either rolls off of the hit or stands the defenseman up. Now do I think Stafford fits my model? No........ I think he is growing into it but I think he needs to improve his board play and forechecking to be a top line power forward. atm I consider him more a 2 way forward. He is good on offense and decent in his own end. I think Vanek fits my model of todays power forward more then anyone on the team atm. The next closest I think is Hecht. I still feel the same way about Stafford as I did when the sabres got eliminated. I would like to see him given a new contract to show this wasn't just a contract year hot streak. However if some team wants to throw a high end of the curve contract at him I say take the compensation and thank the other team.
Lanny Posted June 2, 2011 Report Posted June 2, 2011 A power forward is someone that is strong along the walls being able to dig pucks out and recover them and is able to be effective in front of the opposing net, should be good on the forecheck, also they should have a physical edge to their game. That does not mean they just go around steamrolling guys, it means they are strong on their skates and when a defenseman lines them up the forward either rolls off of the hit or stands the defenseman up. Now do I think Stafford fits my model? No........ I think he is growing into it but I think he needs to improve his board play and forechecking to be a top line power forward. atm I consider him more a 2 way forward. He is good on offense and decent in his own end. I think Vanek fits my model of todays power forward more then anyone on the team atm. The next closest I think is Hecht. I still feel the same way about Stafford as I did when the sabres got eliminated. I would like to see him given a new contract to show this wasn't just a contract year hot streak. However if some team wants to throw a high end of the curve contract at him I say take the compensation and thank the other team. $1,034,249 or below: No compensation $1,034,249 -- $1,567,043: Third-round pick $1,567,043 -- $3,134,055: Second-round pick $3,134,088 -- $4,701,131: First and third-round pick $4,701,131 -- $6,268,175: First, second and third-round pick $6,268,175 -- $7,835,219: Two first-round picks, a second and third $7,835,219 and higher: Four first-round picks You're probably looking at that 1st & 3rd pick range.
SabresFan526 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Posted June 2, 2011 You're probably looking at that 1st & 3rd pick range. Depending on the team and how bad they are, within the salary range you specified, the Sabres could probably afford to match the deal. So, if you assume he gets an offer sheet of $4 million, it seems that would be the appropriate salary based on his numbers this year. Given the crapshoot of the draft and the uncertainty of what position you would get in the draft, I'm not sure it's worth taking the compensation, I'd match for a 1st and 3rd. Now, if he gets an offer in the $5 million and above range, I think now you have to consider taking the compensation as now you can start trading picks to get you the elite center you are looking for. With the additional 2nd round pick, you have more room to maneuver than if you only get a 1st and 3rd, and I think that would be worth taking the compensation in my mind. I think the ultimate question for Darcy is you probably know that you can't really trade Pominville (he's a good player with a good game, but just way overpaid) and you consider the glut at Right Wing on this team, the question becomes who would you rather have, Boyes for one year or Stafford for many years? I think I'd rather take Stafford over Boyes and if you have to pay $4 million, I'd rather keep Stafford over Boyes for the same money. I mean, you got this far most of the season without Boyes, you could probably do okay without him. That's my thought at least.
carpandean Posted June 2, 2011 Report Posted June 2, 2011 I think Vanek fits my model of todays power forward more then anyone on the team atm. The next closest I think is Hecht. I'm thinking that Gerbe may be the closest thing that this team has to a power forward. The really sad part is that I am only sort of kidding.
inkman Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 I'm thinking that Gerbe may be the closest thing that this team has to a power forward. The really sad part is that I am only sort of kidding. Help is on the way...
deluca67 Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 Not making a HOF arguement here.. The question is, are they Power Forwards? If not ....then the description is far too narrow. Franzen and Nash don't fight. Horton doesn't hit much. Can they be considered Power Fowards...broadly I would argue yes. That is what the role has become...playing near the net and slot. The Gary Roberts and Cam Neely types were what the role was 15 years ago. The game has adjusted. Lucic is the standard for today's "Power Forward." Lucic is who we should be comparing Stafford to. Sadly for Stafford and the Sabres he is nowhere near the player Lucic is as the Power Forward.
waldo Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 Does Rick Nash fit the definition? Johan Frazen? Nathan Horton? report back. No! not in my book..BUT..all of your names are much closer to the definition than Stafford.
waldo Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 Lucic is the standard for today's "Power Forward." Lucic is who we should be comparing Stafford to. Sadly for Stafford and the Sabres he is nowhere near the player Lucic is as the Power Forward. Agreed...Lucic is a power forward. Under any definition .
Taro T Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 Lucic is the standard for today's "Power Forward." Lucic is who we should be comparing Stafford to. Sadly for Stafford and the Sabres he is nowhere near the player Lucic is as the Power Forward. Yes, and all centers should be compared to Crosby and all D should be compared to Lidstrom. Unfortunately for the Sabres, they don't have any of those 3. Your point being? (Unfortunately, for all 30 teams, nobody has all 3, and for 27 teams (depending upon how the concussion resolves, maybe 28 teams) they don't have any of them either.) I'm a bit surprised that you chose Lucic as your comparable because the contract he was given by Boston goes along with most everything you rail against. He went from entry level deal to $4MM/ coming off a 50 game season that he didn't even break single digits in goals. He also had a career high at that point below 20 goals. Lucic is a rare bird. The fact that Stafford isn't where he's at does not mean that he hasn't shown signs of growing into the role of power forward. And if Lucic is the bar you've set for what a power forward is, you've got a very short list of who is a power forward.
deluca67 Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 Yes, and all centers should be compared to Crosby and all D should be compared to Lidstrom. Unfortunately for the Sabres, they don't have any of those 3. Your point being? (Unfortunately, for all 30 teams, nobody has all 3, and for 27 teams (depending upon how the concussion resolves, maybe 28 teams) they don't have any of them either.) I'm a bit surprised that you chose Lucic as your comparable because the contract he was given by Boston goes along with most everything you rail against. He went from entry level deal to $4MM/ coming off a 50 game season that he didn't even break single digits in goals. He also had a career high at that point below 20 goals. Lucic is a rare bird. The fact that Stafford isn't where he's at does not mean that he hasn't shown signs of growing into the role of power forward. And if Lucic is the bar you've set for what a power forward is, you've got a very short list of who is a power forward. The "point" is that it is the standard. Crosby, Lidstrom and Lucic are the standards at their position. You compare a player to the standard, not alter the definition of the standard so a player can fit under that standard. Which is the only way Stafford could be considered a "power forward."
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 Here's a hint....if you can call the guy a P#$$Y.............he's probably not a power forward....
BuffaloSoldier2010 Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 so.... crosby's not a power forward then?
X. Benedict Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 Lucic is a rare bird. The fact that Stafford isn't where he's at does not mean that he hasn't shown signs of growing into the role of power forward. And if Lucic is the bar you've set for what a power forward is, you've got a very short list of who is a power forward. Lucic really is an exception to the development curve. He was ready out of the gate. He surprised everyone. Stafford is just 25...and frankly much more normal in terms of development.
nobody Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 Here's a hint....if you can call the guy a P#$$Y.............he's probably not a power forward.... :thumbsup:
X. Benedict Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 Here's a hint....if you can call the guy a P#$$Y.............he's probably not a power forward.... Taylor Pyatt?
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 Taylor Pyatt? 142 hits versus Stafford's 53? Stafford had 15 more goals than Pyatt total the past 5 years Pyatt hasn't been a minus player since leaving Buffalo 4 goals in 23 playoff games versus 3 in 20 games $1 million a year Pyatt plays tough along the boards. A power forward doesn't "think pretty", first. It's about puck control, keeping possesion and forecheck, and getting the puck in the net any way you can. He isn't nasty, but you can move Stafford and Sekera off the puck at the same time, easier than Pyatt. I have always used Pyatt as the prime example of how Lindy Ruff can't develop a true power forward. Vanek has all the skills to be one, and something tells me if he was on Vancouver, Philly, Anaheim, Boston....people might be talking about him as a top 10 player in the league. Gaustad had the potential to be a 20 goal guy and true league leader coming in. Instead of bulking him up and plunking him in front of the net on the PP, he is made to lose weight and turns into another also-ran. Darcy doesn't value big guys with skill. Lindy can't develop them. I think Stafford has a lot of potential, but he will never reach his limits in Buffalo's system. That is the biggest frustration of mine over the years. How do you expect a team to play with consistant passion and toughness while still being competitive if you don't allow those types of players to come in and develop? They are all "out of shape". Go back to game 6 against Philly.....Butler takes a couple penalties for being overagressive/stupid at the wrong time, then lets a guy have 3 uncontested whacks at a rebound 2 feet from the net to win in OT. I see Eric Brewer in the exact same situation the next day and he decapitates the guy in front. No penalty. Why? Because he knows how to play the game. These Sabres have been so focused on "the system" that they overthink and do not have the instincts to know what the game is all about. A lot of these guys don't know if they are coming or going out there when the real games are played. That's 100% on Ruff. Torres has said it....he was out of place here because he always had to THINK. Pro athletes at the top of their game should be trusted to go out and play. We don't have those guys because the team culture has turned them into students instead of men. Yes....a little bit of a tangent....but these things are related. Hockey Purgatory
carpandean Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 These Sabres have been so focused on "the system" Just for the record - because I see this quoted as a negative so often here - if you watch the post-game interviews from just about every other team (including those playing for the Cup), you will hear the coaches and players say things like "we have to stick to our system" or how "we didn't play play our system" all the time. Detroit probably uses the term the most and I'm pretty sure that Lindy Ruff tries to take as much as possible from their playbook.
X. Benedict Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 142 hits versus Stafford's 53? Stafford had 15 more goals than Pyatt total the past 5 years Pyatt hasn't been a minus player since leaving Buffalo 4 goals in 23 playoff games versus 3 in 20 games $1 million a year Pyatt plays tough along the boards. A power forward doesn't "think pretty", first. It's about puck control, keeping possesion and forecheck, and getting the puck in the net any way you can. He isn't nasty, but you can move Stafford and Sekera off the puck at the same time, easier than Pyatt. I have always used Pyatt as the prime example of how Lindy Ruff can't develop a true power forward. Vanek has all the skills to be one, and something tells me if he was on Vancouver, Philly, Anaheim, Boston....people might be talking about him as a top 10 player in the league. Gaustad had the potential to be a 20 goal guy and true league leader coming in. Instead of bulking him up and plunking him in front of the net on the PP, he is made to lose weight and turns into another also-ran. Darcy doesn't value big guys with skill. Lindy can't develop them. I think Stafford has a lot of potential, but he will never reach his limits in Buffalo's system. That is the biggest frustration of mine over the years. How do you expect a team to play with consistant passion and toughness while still being competitive if you don't allow those types of players to come in and develop? They are all "out of shape". Go back to game 6 against Philly.....Butler takes a couple penalties for being overagressive/stupid at the wrong time, then lets a guy have 3 uncontested whacks at a rebound 2 feet from the net to win in OT. I see Eric Brewer in the exact same situation the next day and he decapitates the guy in front. No penalty. Why? Because he knows how to play the game. These Sabres have been so focused on "the system" that they overthink and do not have the instincts to know what the game is all about. A lot of these guys don't know if they are coming or going out there when the real games are played. That's 100% on Ruff. Torres has said it....he was out of place here because he always had to THINK. Pro athletes at the top of their game should be trusted to go out and play. We don't have those guys because the team culture has turned them into students instead of men. Yes....a little bit of a tangent....but these things are related. Hockey Purgatory Develop? :lol: Bernier - Pyatt- Torres - are all and still are 3rd liners at best. None of them have developed. Torres..on the other hand..decided to get in shape. He was given every opportunity in Buffalo to play his game, he was just always behind the play and useless on the back-check. Of course if you trap when ahead, and dump and chase when behind...you hit more. That is the sum of Pyatt's 14 goals a year development. :lol:
LGR4GM Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 142 hits versus Stafford's 53? Stafford had 15 more goals than Pyatt total the past 5 years Pyatt hasn't been a minus player since leaving Buffalo 4 goals in 23 playoff games versus 3 in 20 games $1 million a year Pyatt plays tough along the boards. A power forward doesn't "think pretty", first. It's about puck control, keeping possesion and forecheck, and getting the puck in the net any way you can. He isn't nasty, but you can move Stafford and Sekera off the puck at the same time, easier than Pyatt. I have always used Pyatt as the prime example of how Lindy Ruff can't develop a true power forward. Vanek has all the skills to be one, and something tells me if he was on Vancouver, Philly, Anaheim, Boston....people might be talking about him as a top 10 player in the league. Gaustad had the potential to be a 20 goal guy and true league leader coming in. Instead of bulking him up and plunking him in front of the net on the PP, he is made to lose weight and turns into another also-ran. Darcy doesn't value big guys with skill. Lindy can't develop them. I think Stafford has a lot of potential, but he will never reach his limits in Buffalo's system. That is the biggest frustration of mine over the years. How do you expect a team to play with consistant passion and toughness while still being competitive if you don't allow those types of players to come in and develop? They are all "out of shape". Go back to game 6 against Philly.....Butler takes a couple penalties for being overagressive/stupid at the wrong time, then lets a guy have 3 uncontested whacks at a rebound 2 feet from the net to win in OT. I see Eric Brewer in the exact same situation the next day and he decapitates the guy in front. No penalty. Why? Because he knows how to play the game. These Sabres have been so focused on "the system" that they overthink and do not have the instincts to know what the game is all about. A lot of these guys don't know if they are coming or going out there when the real games are played. That's 100% on Ruff. Torres has said it....he was out of place here because he always had to THINK. Pro athletes at the top of their game should be trusted to go out and play. We don't have those guys because the team culture has turned them into students instead of men. Yes....a little bit of a tangent....but these things are related. Hockey Purgatory I partially agree but Torres was a fat POS when he was here so he doesnt count. Pyatt really isnt better than drew so idk if thats a legit comparison. I'll make a deal with you. If Kassian comes up and does not become a power forward than yes you are right and ruff fails but if he comes up and destroys things which I think he will than it could be just the players.
X. Benedict Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 I partially agree but Torres was a fat POS when he was here so he doesnt count. Pyatt really isnt better than drew so idk if thats a legit comparison. I'll make a deal with you. If Kassian comes up and does not become a power forward than yes you are right and ruff fails but if he comes up and destroys things which I think he will than it could be just the players. Pyatt is a bust. 8th overall. IIRC. 120 goals in 10 NHL seasons. And that's with two seasons on lines with the Sedin brothers after which Mike Gillis didn't even offer him a contract. He's found a home in Phoenix..but he's still third and forth line stuff basically with a trap and dump and chase system.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 Pyatt is a bust. 8th overall. IIRC. 120 goals in 10 NHL seasons. And that's with two seasons on lines with the Sedin brothers after which Mike Gillis didn't even offer him a contract. He's found a home in Phoenix..but he's still third and forth line stuff basically with a trap and dump and chase system. You asked if he was a power forward. I think 3x the hits Drew Stafford throws and averaging 3 less goals a year than Stafford while making $1 million is pretty good production. For a 4th liner in a defensive system, 18 goals last year is real crappy. Those Sedins must have been setting him up all day. By the way...he's averaged more goals in Phoenix. I'll leave you with this stat to determine who has more heart and should even be mentioned in the same breath as "power forward". Hits: Taylor Pyatt 142 Drew Stafford 53 Blocked Shots: Taylor Pyatt 48 Drew Stafford 5 Yep.....Drew's a solid 2-way power forward all-right
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 Just for the record - because I see this quoted as a negative so often here - if you watch the post-game interviews from just about every other team (including those playing for the Cup), you will hear the coaches and players say things like "we have to stick to our system" or how "we didn't play play our system" all the time. Detroit probably uses the term the most and I'm pretty sure that Lindy Ruff tries to take as much as possible from their playbook. Darcy and Lindy have been trying to copy Detroit for a decade. It's like someone who went to Juliard trying to sing like Sinatra. They may have a good technical voice, but they can't swing. They don't posses what made Sinatra, Sinatra....and they have no chance of getting to that point because they are square. Their best hope is a steady gig on a cruise ship, or to go legit and sing in the Philharmonic chorus.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 I partially agree but Torres was a fat POS when he was here so he doesnt count. According to who? If he was really that out of shape, and still managed 20 goals, a normal and efficient manager would say to himself, "Holy $#!* imagine what this guy will do once we sharpen him up!" But he went straight to the tank here. You put a US Marine in a Bejing elite unit for drills, and he will look like a flounder. Doesn't mean in the real world he couldn't slice 10 of those guys up and down. Other teams take advantage of Sabres mismanagement, not the other way around. That is why we are stuck in Hockey Purgatory
X. Benedict Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 Other teams take advantage of Sabres mismanagement, not the other way around. That is why we are stuck in Hockey Purgatory and we could have spent 5 years waiting for Pyatt... now that's Purgatory.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted June 3, 2011 Report Posted June 3, 2011 and we could have spent 5 years waiting for Pyatt... now that's Purgatory. Instead we just waited 5 years to possibly win one playoff series.
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