Foligno signed

[Weave]

Wondering....respectfully...

 

Do we need this (2007 thing) to inform a thread about Marcus Folgino? I thought Shrader made a good point...Southern and Allard weren't signed. Darcy loves prospects. He usually signs them.

 

(It wasn't my intent to marginalize it, but maybe it deserves it's own thread, rather than this gist informing every one)

 

In my defense, I never mentioned 2007 in this thread. :P

[Derrico]

Yep. Typical. Just marginalize the whole idea here. :rolleyes:

 

Since 2001 they've been past the first round of the playoffs twice. And looked outclassed in the playoffs in the 1st round the last two seasons. It isn't about 2007. It is about 10 years of mostly mediocrity, split by 2 years of lightning caught in a bottle.

 

First I'm not sure pushing Philly (who was unbelivably under the salary cap somehow) to 7 games is 'looked outclassed'. They were head and shoulders above everyone in the east before Pronger got hurt. Secondly if you want to give them crap about not resigning players etc etc fine but please don't classify a conference finalist (won't go into injuries preventing us from winning the cup) and president winning team as 'lightning caught in a bottle.'

[Taro T]

Really? Did people feel the same way about the Sabres from 2005 through Summer 2007 as they did from Black Friday until the first time they heard Terry Pegula's name?

 

It's not just that Black Friday happened, it's that nothing happened since to make us forget.

Did people feel the same way about the Sabres from March through June 2006 as they did from November 2006 until June 30 2007?

[Braedon]

Really? Did people feel the same way about the Sabres from 2005 through Summer 2007 as they did from Black Friday until the first time they heard Terry Pegula's name?

 

It's not just that Black Friday happened, it's that nothing happened since to make us forget.

 

 

Forgive me for my ignorance, but what occurred on Black Friday? I assumed you were speaking of the loss of 23/48, but I know that was a Sunday so I'm missing something.

[87168]

Should make the Ottawa rivalry even more interesting.

[inkman]

Should make the Ottawa rivalry even more interesting.

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they take a run at his brother in a trade.

[Robviously]

Forgive me for my ignorance, but what occurred on Black Friday? I assumed you were speaking of the loss of 23/48, but I know that was a Sunday so I'm missing something.

Bunch of people got trampled at Wal-Mart trying to get a deal. :nana:

 

Typo. Should have said "Black Sunday."

[shrader]

Really? Did people feel the same way about the Sabres from 2005 through Summer 2007 as they did from Black Friday until the first time they heard Terry Pegula's name?

 

It's not just that Black Friday happened, it's that nothing happened since to make us forget.

 

But being worried about losing a draft pick even though the team has signed every single draft pick of value dating back to 2004? That single action right there, the baseless expectation that the team will screw something up, that's the Buffalo mentality. That's what Pegula and co. have to deal with now and it's what they want to change. Good luck to them because it's one hell of an uphill battle.

[carpandean]

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they take a run at his brother in a trade.

The Sabres or Ottawa? I could see either team trying to get the set.

[Derrico]

But being worried about losing a draft pick even though the team has signed every single draft pick of value dating back to 2004? That single action right there, the baseless expectation that the team will screw something up, that's the Buffalo mentality. That's what Pegula and co. have to deal with now and it's what they want to change. Good luck to them because it's one hell of an uphill battle.

 

I agree, it's going to take some time changing the mentality of fans. Not sure if even one very successful offseason will change some people's perception.

[carpandean]

But being worried about losing a draft pick even though the team has signed every single draft pick of value dating back to 2004? That single action right there, the baseless expectation that the team will screw something up, that's the Buffalo mentality. That's what Pegula and co. have to deal with now and it's what they want to change. Good luck to them because it's one hell of an uphill battle.

I agree, it's going to take some time changing the mentality of fans. Not sure if even one very successful offseason will change some people's perception.

Keeping Darcy, even if he really was held back during the Golisano administration, will only prolong this transition. So many ingrained feelings about the guy to overcome.

[wacollin]

That's my thought process as well. DR shares some of the blame for 'mediocrity' but I think there was more going on behind the scenes in terms of financial restrictions etc. than the public new. Well, I should say was confirmed.

 

 

I seem to remember Tommy G talking about fiscal responsibility when he bought the team? I think we had a better team than expected post lockout during his honeymoon phase and he took a stab at it but got bored quickly.

[korab rules]

My original concern was different than what people have expressed here. I realize that it is beyond rare for a prospect to flat out decline to sign a contract and re-enter the draft. What was concerning to me was that the top unsigned forward prospect in our system, a kid who would be a guaranteed first rounder if he were to re-enter, was allowed to get that close. My concern was less about the chance of losing him, and more about the signal being sent by allowing him to remain unsigned.

 

One of the goals of the new ownership group is to establish Buffalo as "Hockey Heaven" - that mythical place where players are treated like royalty by ownership, everyone is one big happy family, no one ever wants to leave, and every big name free agent longs to sign here. It is an admirable goal, and one which would give us a competitive advantage.

 

I have long argued (before anyone had ever heard of Pegula and the concept of hockey Heaven) that Darcy is the antithesis of everything "Hockey Heaven" represents. I think he is a cold fish, a robot, an automaton. I think that feelings are a foreign concept to him. I think he makes cold, calculated decisions on his timetable without considering the feelings and emotions of the players, and how his actions and inactions reflect on the franchise and its desirability as a destination for free agents.

 

Examples of this are legion - the prior junior players who went unsigned are only the tip of the iceberg. The way he dealt with Numinen is a prime example, the way he left Drury and Briere swinging in the breeze until the very end is perhaps the most glaring example. The TK negotiations, walking away from arbitration awards, repeatedly waiting until the last possible moment to begin or conclude negotiations. Think it doesn't have an effect on players? They are people, too. They want to feel like they are wanted. It's what the concept of "hockey heaven" is all about. Still think it doesn't have an effect on players? Ask Mike Grier, Chris Drury and Brian Campbell.

 

I love what Pegs is trying to do. I think it can work. Doubling the size of the locker room/training area at the rink is a big step, as was the involvement of players families and alumni. My worry is that Darcy is more comfortable in hockey purgatory than hockey heaven. I am worried that the cold fish, robotic automaton he has always been is who he really is, not who he was forced to become because of the prior administration. My worry is that allowing Foligno to get within days of re-entering the draft is evidence that while the administration has changed, Darcy is still the same old Darcy. The new administration has taken big, bold steps to demonstrate to the world that things have changed in Buffalo. With one unnecessarily delayed contract negotiation, Darcy may have demonstrated to the hockey world that everything remains the same in the GM's office.

 

Flame away.

[shrader]

So under the Pegula ownership, he actually took longer to sign Foligno than he did to sign the last highly regarded forward prospect Luke Adam. How do we spin that one?

[korab rules]

So under the Pegula ownership, he actually took longer to sign Foligno than he did to sign the last highly regarded forward prospect Luke Adam. How do we spin that one?

 

Is that the best you've got?

 

Its just my off season musings. I give DR about 18 months (3 1/2 are already gone) to show us what he is really made of. He will write his own story through his actions and inactions.

[Taro T]

... I give DR about 18 months (3 1/2 are already gone) to show us what he is really made of.

Except you AREN'T giving him 18 months to show what he's made of. You've clearly already made your decision (as have many others). And while there is nothing wrong w/ that, hearing about every perceived thing he does wrong (especially in the case of something like this, where he DIDN'T screw anything up) is going to get real old real quick.

 

I take no issue w/ pointing out things that he does wrong, all I ask is that he actually screw something up before pointing it out.

 

He will write his own story through his actions and inactions.

This is 100% correct. And is the way it should be.

[Lanny]

Your statement above is fine other than the Foligno signing being an example of any of it.

[shrader]

Except you AREN'T giving him 18 months to show what he's made of. You've clearly already made your decision (as have many others). And while there is nothing wrong w/ that, hearing about every perceived thing he does wrong (especially in the case of something like this, where he DIDN'T screw anything up) is going to get real old real quick.

 

I take no issue w/ pointing out things that he does wrong, all I ask is that he actually screw something up before pointing it out.

 

 

That's pretty much what I've been trying to say right from the start here, except I suck at the english language.

[korab rules]

Except you AREN'T giving him 18 months to show what he's made of. You've clearly already made your decision (as have many others). And while there is nothing wrong w/ that, hearing about every perceived thing he does wrong (especially in the case of something like this, where he DIDN'T screw anything up) is going to get real old real quick.

 

I take no issue w/ pointing out things that he does wrong, all I ask is that he actually screw something up before pointing it out.

 

 

Wrong. I haven't made my decision. I like to make fun of the caricature that is DR, but I think he has made some wildly unpopular decisions that turned out to be pretty smart. Then again, he has royally screwed up some decisions that seemed like no brainers.

 

He and the organizations have been lampooned for the concept of "video scouting" yet we have a treasure trove of prospects that are the envy of the league. Darcy deserves the majority of the credit for this.

 

I never said that Darcy screwed he foligno signing up. Obviously he didn't, because he was ultimately signed. My point was that letting your top unsigned forward prospect get that close to re-entering the draft was concerning to me, could be viewed as "putting the screws"to the kid, and could be an indication that despite the change in organizational philosophy at the top that it could be that nothing has changed in the GM's office.

 

There is a lot to like about Darcy, but a lot to be concerned about as well. I merely pointed out an inaction. Think of it as keeping score. If you don't want live updates on the score, just tune into NHL on the fly in 18 months. ;)

[korab rules]

That's pretty much what I've been trying to say right from the start here, except I suck at the english language.

 

But that's not what I'm doing. What I am pointing out is more subtle than that. I'm not a Darcy hater. I'm not a Darcy lover. I think he deserves, and is getting, a chance to hang himself.

 

If you don't like my running commentary on what he does with the rope then don't read it.

[carpandean]

your top forward prospect

I let this go when you said "top unsigned forward prospect" as he may be that, but he is not the Sabres top forward prospect. Kevin Devine said that he is like Kassian, but with not nearly the same offensive upside. So, at the very least, that puts Kassian above him. Others (e.g., Adam) might also be considered above him. He is a decent forward prospect, who's stock has come up a bit from his draft position, but I doubt anyone is projecting him as a potential top-line forward, if even a top-six forward.

[korab rules]

I let this go when you said "top unsigned forward prospect" as he may be that, but he is not the Sabres top forward prospect. Kevin Devine said that he is like Kassian, but with not nearly the same offensive upside. So, at the very least, that puts Kassian above him. Others (e.g., Adam) might also be considered above him. He is a decent forward prospect, who's stock has come up a bit from his draft position, but I doubt anyone is projecting him as a potential top-line forward, if even a top-six forward.

 

You are right. I have tried to use the "unsigned" qualifier when referring to Foligno, but missed it there. I have never argued he was the best forward prospect we have. Fixed it above.

[shrader]

But that's not what I'm doing. What I am pointing out is more subtle than that. I'm not a Darcy hater. I'm not a Darcy lover. I think he deserves, and is getting, a chance to hang himself.

 

If you don't like my running commentary on what he does with the rope then don't read it.

 

You may say that it isn't what you're doing, but your choice of words there is pretty telling.

[BetweenThePipes00]

Wrong. I haven't made my decision. I like to make fun of the caricature that is DR, but I think he has made some wildly unpopular decisions that turned out to be pretty smart. Then again, he has royally screwed up some decisions that seemed like no brainers.

 

He and the organizations have been lampooned for the concept of "video scouting" yet we have a treasure trove of prospects that are the envy of the league. Darcy deserves the majority of the credit for this.

 

I never said that Darcy screwed he foligno signing up. Obviously he didn't, because he was ultimately signed. My point was that letting your top unsigned forward prospect get that close to re-entering the draft was concerning to me, could be viewed as "putting the screws"to the kid, and could be an indication that despite the change in organizational philosophy at the top that it could be that nothing has changed in the GM's office.

 

There is a lot to like about Darcy, but a lot to be concerned about as well. I merely pointed out an inaction. Think of it as keeping score. If you don't want live updates on the score, just tune into NHL on the fly in 18 months. ;)

 

Yeah, it COULD be viewed as "putting the screws"to the kid. It also COULD be viewed as the kid's agent trying to take advantage of his strong season and milk every last penny he could for a 4th round pick. The deadline is the only leverage the kid has, and Foligno himself kind of hurt some of that saying MANY times he always wanted to play for the Sabres. He spent LAST summer working out at HSBC Arena ... he WANTED to sign. Everyone involved knew there was very little chance of him going back in if there was a fair offer involved. They ended up giving him slightly less than Kassian and $110K more per season than McNabb ... there is no way they were ever "putting the screws" to him. Seeing as McNabb got less money despite being a higher pick and having a huge season also, maybe his agent should have held out for more cash too.

 

ADD: I don't think "doing things differently" has to mean "throwing as much money as possible at every player." It's OK to negotiate .. if they start thinking they need to overpay for appearances, they will just be a different kind of screwed up.

[Braedon]

I think he makes cold, calculated decisions on his timetable without considering the feelings and emotions of the players, and how his actions and inactions reflect on the franchise and its desirability as a destination for free agents.

 

 

 

I get what you're saying, but I don't consider this to be a negative attribute of a GM. Obviously I don't want them to be George Orwell's 1984, but he should have stability and the team's best interest in mind before the player's best interests. Maybe a chicken or the egg scenario.

 

If he's only as good as the hand that feeds, we have a 3 month snap shot. That has yet to include a draft, free agency or a full offseason, so in the grand scheme of things, I could give a damn about how Foligno got handled. Not because I don't think he's a great prospect or I'm apathetic about his value to the club. Rather, I think Darcy's job performance from June 24th until the second week of September is what really matters.