Marcus Foligno

[korab rules]

http://www.thesudbur....aspx?e=3106328

 

Sorry Tom - didn't see your thread before posting the new one today.

[MattPie]

Under Pegula, it is supposed to be a kinder, gentler OSP.

 

I still read that as 'Old Sugar Packets'. Was there determination on that?

[korab rules]

I still read that as 'Old Sugar Packets'. Was there determination on that?

 

I thought it was "One Sabres Plaza"

 

Kinda like "One Bills Drive".

 

:unsure:

[Patty16]

I am well aware of that fact. I am also aware of Darcy's history of waiting until the last minute with looming free agents and RFA's.

 

Under Pegula, it is supposed to be a kinder, gentler OSP. Money is no object (except for the cap). Who cares what the AHL side of this two way, 3 year, entry level contract pays, so what are they arguing about - 800K vs. 850K when he is with the big club? Screwing with one of the top junior prospects in your system is not the way to change the tone and the perception of the Buffalo Sabres organization.

 

The next 3 months in Buffalo are going to show whether Darcy was simply a victim of circumstances - a loyal soldier who would have already won us a cup if not hamstrung and handcuffed by Larry, Tom and Curly - or whether he shared their mindset.

 

The jury is still out. Maybe GoDD's Uncle Vinny can give us some odds

 

 

How exactly are they screwing him? Talk to me on June 3. The kid just came back from a serious knee injury, likely not to have helped Portland.

[korab rules]

How exactly are they screwing him? Talk to me on June 3. The kid just came back from a serious knee injury, likely not to have helped Portland.

 

Not screwing him, screwing with him. He was healthy enough to finish the regular season and play in the playoffs but not healthy enough to play in Portland?

 

He should have been signed months ago. What the hell are they waiting for? 29 more days and he goes back in the draft. Maybe he gets tired of waiting for Darcy like Briere got tired. You let them get too close to the deadline, and some will decide to see what color the grass is on the other side.

[X. Benedict]

Not screwing him, screwing with him. He was healthy enough to finish the regular season and play in the playoffs but not healthy enough to play in Portland?He should have been signed months ago. What the hell are they waiting for? 29 more days and he goes back in the draft. Maybe he gets tired of waiting for Darcy like Briere got tired. You let them get too close to the deadline, and some will decide to see what color the grass is on the other side.

I'm not sure if that was a question or not.

 

I think he was -10 for one playoff series.

[Patty16]

Not screwing him, screwing with him. He was healthy enough to finish the regular season and play in the playoffs but not healthy enough to play in Portland?

 

He should have been signed months ago. What the hell are they waiting for? 29 more days and he goes back in the draft. Maybe he gets tired of waiting for Darcy like Briere got tired. You let them get too close to the deadline, and some will decide to see what color the grass is on the other side.

Did you even read the article above???

""" He returned from a serious knee injury on the final weekend of the regular season after missing weeks of playing time and posted two goals, three points and 24 penalty minutes along with a team-worst minus-10 in the Wolves' eight playoff games, which included a first-round sweep of the Ottawa 67's.

 

The guy was hurt. But your opinion is that he was not. Ok, so how is a guy who accumulated 24 PIMs AND was -10 going to help portland???? No. He was hurt and not healthy enough to help his team.

 

Whats the rush? They sign him now or in a few weeks there's not difference for him.

 

He'll be signed.

[korab rules]

I'm not sure if that was a question or not.

 

I think he was -10 for one playoff series.

 

I didn't say he played well - point was he played - my point was in response to Patty saying he was coming off a serious knee injury and not likely to help Portland.

 

Foligno was a rock all year. His minus could have had a little something to do with his linemates, too.

[korab rules]

Did you even read the article above???

""" He returned from a serious knee injury on the final weekend of the regular season after missing weeks of playing time and posted two goals, three points and 24 penalty minutes along with a team-worst minus-10 in the Wolves' eight playoff games, which included a first-round sweep of the Ottawa 67's.

 

The guy was hurt. But your opinion is that he was not. Ok, so how is a guy who accumulated 24 PIMs AND was -10 going to help portland???? No. He was hurt and not healthy enough to help his team.

 

Whats the rush? They sign him now or in a few weeks there's not difference for him.

 

He'll be signed.

 

All the 16 year old kids are gone now - Can we stop with the "did you even watch the game?" and "Did you even read the article?" BS?

 

So you think the team played a guy who wasn't healthy enough to play? If they let him play its because he was completely healthy. They (his family and agent) aren't going to risk his future for a Junior game. This isn't some dumb farm kid from Saskatoon - He's a Foligno - He's knows what league his bread will be buttered in.

 

His +/- is a separate issue altogether from the injury. +/- doesn't tell the whole story, and is dependent on a lot of things other than Foligno's play. He did score two goals.

 

As to what's the rush, I think I have already answered that above. He's one of the top forward prospects in the entire organization.

 

But whether he is ready or able to help Portland is a separate issue and argument from why isn't he signed yet.

[X. Benedict]

So you think the team played a guy who wasn't healthy enough to play? If they let him play its because he was completely healthy. They (his family and agent) aren't going to risk his future for a Junior game. This isn't some dumb farm kid from Saskatoon - He's a Foligno - He's knows what league his bread will be buttered in.

 

 

I don't think he sees the ice if it wasn't the playoffs. From what little I followed, he played hurt with reduced minutes. (not making an argument here....I think his ouches were legit.)

 

They play hurt in Juniors too.

 

But I would rather not have any anxiety over getting him signed too.

[Patty16]

All the 16 year old kids are gone now - Can we stop with the "did you even watch the game?" and "Did you even read the article?" BS?

 

So you think the team played a guy who wasn't healthy enough to play? If they let him play its because he was completely healthy. They (his family and agent) aren't going to risk his future for a Junior game. This isn't some dumb farm kid from Saskatoon - He's a Foligno - He's knows what league his bread will be buttered in.

 

His +/- is a separate issue altogether from the injury. +/- doesn't tell the whole story, and is dependent on a lot of things other than Foligno's play. He did score two goals.

 

As to what's the rush, I think I have already answered that above. He's one of the top forward prospects in the entire organization.

 

But whether he is ready or able to help Portland is a separate issue and argument from why isn't he signed yet.

 

 

Nice.

Many guys come back early and/or arent the same when they come back. Pommers came back from a concussion this year and was awful for a while. Did derek roy look the same in game 7?

Even if his knee was medically cleared, his conditioning would be off, and his performance decreased. The numbers support that sentiment.

Seems like some grown up reasoning to me.

[LabattBlue]

I thought it was "One Sabres Plaza"

 

Kinda like "One Bills Drive".

 

:unsure:

OSP = Ole' Sugar Packets

 

I can't remember if PA coined this phrase or if he just started the ball rolling by claiming that Golisano was always stealing sugar packets from every restaurant he goes to. :lol:

[shrader]

Nice.

Many guys come back early and/or arent the same when they come back. Pommers came back from a concussion this year and was awful for a while. Did derek roy look the same in game 7?

Even if his knee was medically cleared, his conditioning would be off, and his performance decreased. The numbers support that sentiment.

Seems like some grown up reasoning to me.

 

And there's no way in hell that the Sabres are going to put one of their more valuable prospects into a situation where he's playing against a higher level of competition than he's ever seen before all while being hobbled by a knee injury. There's too much value there to risk anything. The article is nothing more than a canadian paper trying to stir up some controversy in hopes of keeping a kid in Canada. They do it all the time, especially in those junior hockey markets. I'm surprised they didn't end the story by saying "Brian Burke would love to draft this kid."

[X. Benedict]

And there's no way in hell that the Sabres are going to put one of their more valuable prospects into a situation where he's playing against a higher level of competition than he's ever seen before all while being hobbled by a knee injury. There's too much value there to risk anything. The article is nothing more than a canadian paper trying to stir up some controversy in hopes of keeping a kid in Canada. They do it all the time, especially in those junior hockey markets. I'm surprised they didn't end the story by saying "Brian Burke would love to draft this kid."

 

That Sudbury to North Bay area is filled with rabid hockey fans. I don't think that they would mind seeing Foligno go back in the draft as a top 10 pick.

[Robviously]

That Sudbury to North Bay area is filled with rabid hockey fans. I don't think that they would mind seeing Foligno go back in the draft as a top 10 pick.

You really think he'd be a top 10 pick? He's got a great chance to be a good NHL player but his ceiling is still fairly low (maybe 2nd liner but probably 3rd liner).

 

If I had a top 10 pick I'd want to aim higher even with an increased risk and longer wait.

[X. Benedict]

You really think he'd be a top 10 pick? He's got a great chance to be a good NHL player but his ceiling is still fairly low (maybe 2nd liner but probably 3rd liner).

 

If I had a top 10 pick I'd want to aim higher even with an increased risk and longer wait.

 

I would put him between 8 and 12 if he went in the upcoming draft.

 

There are real questions about his defensive play, but I think he probably will play at 6'3" 225 in the NHL. And there are only a few guys his age who can crash a net like he can and still have soft hands.

 

Even if a guy like him doesn't score 20 goals. Sending him to net to battle is going to grind down the legs of defensemen trying to front him.

[Weave]

You really think he'd be a top 10 pick? He's got a great chance to be a good NHL player but his ceiling is still fairly low (maybe 2nd liner but probably 3rd liner).

 

If I had a top 10 pick I'd want to aim higher even with an increased risk and longer wait.

I would put him between 8 and 12 if he went in the upcoming draft.

 

There are real questions about his defensive play, but I think he probably will play at 6'3" 225 in the NHL. And there are only a few guys his age who can crash a net like he can and still have soft hands.

 

Even if a guy like him doesn't score 20 goals. Sending him to net to battle is going to grind down the legs of defensemen trying to front him.

 

Before LSG went dark there was a regular contributor who either took the time to crunch the numbers or had access to a site that had the stats for a draft pick from each round to actually make it to the NHL. IIRC a mid 1st round pick had a less than 50% chance of even making it in the NHL. Given those numbers, a kid like Foligno that is really expected to make an NHL contribution should go rather high. I think that we are expecting too much if we expect top 10 picks to be automatic top 6 forwards or top 4 D-men. There just aren't enough kids with that kind of talent coming out each year. In some years, several of those top 10 kids might be fortunate to just make an NHL squad and contribute.

[Robviously]

Before LSG went dark there was a regular contributor who either took the time to crunch the numbers or had access to a site that had the stats for a draft pick from each round to actually make it to the NHL. IIRC a mid 1st round pick had a less than 50% chance of even making it in the NHL. Given those numbers, a kid like Foligno that is really expected to make an NHL contribution should go rather high. I think that we are expecting too much if we expect top 10 picks to be automatic top 6 forwards or top 4 D-men. There just aren't enough kids with that kind of talent coming out each year. In some years, several of those top 10 kids might be fortunate to just make an NHL squad and contribute.

The old rule the Sabres used to use was that if you could get two NHL players from the draft, you had a good draft. That sounds about right.

 

BUT if you're picking in the top 10, your team probably sucks and you'd want to use your high pick a future star (or, at least, quasi-star). It's risk-reward but you don't have anything to lose. Plus, if you draft a kid to be your future no.1 center and he only develops into a no.2 center, you're still in good shape. You'd take Mark McNeill instead of Marc Foligno.

 

All that said, the teams drafting #21 through #30 in the first round would definitely want Foligno. Those are all playoff teams that would want the sure thing and a guy who is older and can contribute sooner.

 

So, in a roundabout way, the day we sign Foligno we get a new first round pick in the organization.

[X. Benedict]

Before LSG went dark there was a regular contributor who either took the time to crunch the numbers or had access to a site that had the stats for a draft pick from each round to actually make it to the NHL. IIRC a mid 1st round pick had a less than 50% chance of even making it in the NHL. Given those numbers, a kid like Foligno that is really expected to make an NHL contribution should go rather high. I think that we are expecting too much if we expect top 10 picks to be automatic top 6 forwards or top 4 D-men. There just aren't enough kids with that kind of talent coming out each year. In some years, several of those top 10 kids might be fortunate to just make an NHL squad and contribute.

A lot of players in the mid-first round have been misses over the years.

 

Probably what Foligno's agent wants to do is to structure a signing bonus so that if Marcus ends up in Portland, he'll be getting at least some guaranteed money above the AHL entry conditions, but probably others know how this works better than me.

[LabattBlue]

I would put him between 8 and 12 if he went in the upcoming draft.

 

There are real questions about his defensive play, but I think he probably will play at 6'3" 225 in the NHL. And there are only a few guys his age who can crash a net like he can and still have soft hands.

 

Even if a guy like him doesn't score 20 goals. Sending him to net to battle is going to grind down the legs of defensemen trying to front him.

I see Foligno as a 3rd or 4th line NHL'er. IMO, if the Sabres didn't sign him to a contract and he went back into the draft, he would be a 2nd round pick at best.

[Weave]

BUT if you're picking in the top 10, your team probably sucks and you'd want to use your high pick a future star (or, at least, quasi-star). It's risk-reward but you don't have anything to lose. Plus, if you draft a kid to be your future no.1 center and he only develops into a no.2 center, you're still in good shape. You'd take Mark McNeill instead of Marc Foligno.

 

But there aren't 10 quasi-stars+ in any given year that come out of the 1st round (or proabably the entire draft). There might be 3 or 4 in a great year, so I don't think you have teams automatically looking for a star in the top 10. Realistically, only the top 3 or 4 draft positions are thinking about drafting a star or quasi-star. The others are looking for long term contributors IMO.

[X. Benedict]

 

BUT if you're picking in the top 10, your team probably sucks and you'd want to use your high pick a future star (or, at least, quasi-star). It's risk-reward but you don't have anything to lose. Plus, if you draft a kid to be your future no.1 center and he only develops into a no.2 center, you're still in good shape. You'd take Mark McNeill instead of Marc Foligno.

 

 

I think it all depends on your team's timeline. A Mark McNeill is probably 3 years out. Marcus Foligno could concievably be on an NHL roster this fall.

[Robviously]

But there aren't 10 quasi-stars+ in any given year that come out of the 1st round (or proabably the entire draft). There might be 3 or 4 in a great year, so I don't think you have teams automatically looking for a star in the top 10. Realistically, only the top 3 or 4 draft positions are thinking about drafting a star or quasi-star. The others are looking for long term contributors IMO.

I think there are always at least 10 guys with a high enough ceiling to be a star in the NHL -- a guy on the first line or half of a top defensive pairing. There are probably more than that, but the further you get from the very top of the draft, the more red flags players have. Derek Roy had a TON of potential but teams were scared off by his size, for example.

 

I think it all depends on your team's timeline. A Mark McNeill is probably 3 years out. Marcus Foligno could concievably be on an NHL roster this fall.

I mentioned timeline in my other response. If you're already a playoff team, you'd love to use a 1st round pick on a guy like Foligno who is (more of) a sure thing and could play for you very soon.

[tom webster]

I see Foligno as a 3rd or 4th line NHL'er. IMO, if the Sabres didn't sign him to a contract and he went back into the draft, he would be a 2nd round pick at best.

 

 

There are highly reputable "hockey" people that would tell you that right now he is a better prospect then Kassian although Kassian has higher upside.

[LabattBlue]

There are highly reputable "hockey" people that would tell you that right now he is a better prospect then Kassian although Kassian has higher upside.

So you believe he would be a top 10 pick in this years draft if the Sabres don't sign him?