The Bottom Line

[Derrico]

What about trading Miller + draft pick to the Stars for Brad Richards? I know Miller is a big time goalie, but what if the Sabres go the route of getting some good D and some leadership into the team - wouldn't that take them further than a superstar goalie?

 

Or we could just sign him on July 1st and not give up Miller and a pick.

[dEnnis the Menace]

Or we could just sign him on July 1st and not give up Miller and a pick.

 

I like this idea better...

[LastPommerFan]

I agree. How do other teams get their biggest goal scoring stars though? Are they bought? Are they raised through their farm-team systems? Are they drafted? Or is it a mix?

 

It sure helps to be terrible, Penguins won the Crosby/Malkin Lottery by being awefule, same with Chicago and Kane Toews. But before that you've got Detroit which was a mix of draft picks (Forwards) and Free Agents/Trades (Defense except Lidstrom)

 

To the thread: Vanek is a mixed bag for the sabres. He scores 5 goals but finishes -7. But then, it's hard to blame him for our inability to clear the puck. His job is to get the hell out as soon as we get the puck on a friendly stick. And it's even harder to watch him sit in front of the net getting cross checked from all sides and watch a pass get by a point man and clear the zone without ever taking a shot.

[spndnchz]

It sure helps to be terrible, Penguins won the Crosby/Malkin Lottery by being awefule, same with Chicago and Kane Toews. But before that you've got Detroit which was a mix of draft picks (Forwards) and Free Agents/Trades (Defense except Lidstrom)

 

To the thread: Vanek is a mixed bag for the sabres. He scores 5 goals but finishes -7. But then, it's hard to blame him for our inability to clear the puck. His job is to get the hell out as soon as we get the puck on a friendly stick. And it's even harder to watch him sit in front of the net getting cross checked from all sides and watch a pass get by a point man and clear the zone without ever taking a shot.

 

Ignored this the first time but here goes again. Vanek got 4 PP goals which don't count in +/-. The minus still sucks but not as bad as it looks.

[deluca67]

You just blew up your own point. Briere AND Richards!! Vanek and ????? Maybe good teams need more than one player?

PTR

Miller doesn't count? The Sabres have Vanek AND Miller.

[Robviously]

Ignored this the first time but here goes again. Vanek got 4 PP goals which don't count in +/-. The minus still sucks but not as bad as it looks.

He was also the man in front of the net on Stafford and Gragnani's PP goals, and was critical in each being scored despite him not getting a point either time. Our powerplay doesn't work without Vanek, meaning this series wouldn't have even been close without Vanek.

 

The plus/minus isn't surprising as we were completely outmatched by the Flyers 5-on-5 all series long.

[X. Benedict]

Vanek gets paid more than Briere and Richards and isn't half the player, or half the leader that they are. Never will be. #RealTalk

 

Consider organizational depth here, and switch the two....

 

If Vanek gets to play on Philly's third line (as Briere does) against Buffalo's third pairing....how does he look?

[deluca67]

Ignored this the first time but here goes again. Vanek got 4 PP goals which don't count in +/-. The minus still sucks but not as bad as it looks.

Your thought actually makes it worse. Vanek was a minus 7 in 87:39 of even strength time.

[deluca67]

Consider organizational depth here, and switch the two....

 

If Vanek gets to play on Philly's third line (as Briere does) against Buffalo's third pairing....how does he look?

Briere was second among Flyer forwards with 106:30 of even strength ice time and 19:20 minutes per game total. I don't think that constitutes third line minutes.

[X. Benedict]

Briere was second among Flyer forwards with 106:30 of even strength ice time and 19:20 minutes per game total. I don't think that constitutes third line minutes.

1a - 1b -1c whatever

 

.....Briere was great....series MVP.....

 

It doesn't really change my point:

 

 

Hartnell-Briere-Leino

[Robviously]

Consider organizational depth here, and switch the two....

 

If Vanek gets to play on Philly's third line (as Briere does) against Buffalo's third pairing....how does he look?

Silence! We're not supposed to think about how the two players in question are on significantly different teams and playing against significantly different teams.

[X. Benedict]

Silence! We're not supposed to think about how the two players in question are on significantly different teams and playing against significantly different teams.

 

my bad. :lol:

[Grinder42]

Vanek is someone we want just not at his price tag. He just does not have enough speed to play 2 way hockey. However, that said, I sure hope the front office does not ante up on Stafford. Let him go he was a bigger no show in the playoffs and he might have had a half a check. Same can be said for Brad boyes! All are similar players with questionable speed but great shots. We only need one of these guys and I would rather keep Vanek who did score 5 in the Philly series! Stafford was absent when role call was taken for the real men in the playoffs as was Boyes. Two big guys playing small. Then again, arguably our two best forwards were the smallest players on the roster. I say we keep Vanek and try to build a team around him and Miller. We already have a few young defensive players that look solid. We might be able to move one or two of those good skating D for some muscle D. Anything is possible with Deep pockets Terry!

[deluca67]

1a - 1b -1c whatever

 

.....Briere was great....series MVP.....

 

It doesn't really change my point:

 

 

Hartnell-Briere-Leino

You think Vanek would produce more with Hartnell and Leino as lien mates?

 

I'm not the world's biggest Briere fan. As players go who can take over games offensively Briere is well above Vanek in that regards.

[Sabre_fan_from_SriLanka]

Or we could just sign him on July 1st and not give up Miller and a pick.

Didn't know that he was a FA this coming summer....yes then we can just sign him on July first if he's still around...

[SDS]

Consider organizational depth here, and switch the two....

 

If Vanek gets to play on Philly's third line (as Briere does) against Buffalo's third pairing....how does he look?

 

You have to consider the incredibly myopic analyses of the average hockey fan. Do you really think NF is thinking about linemates when he's jumping up and down when Briere scores? No, he just runs around in his orange jersey on with his pointer finger in the air yelling "See! I told ya so!"

 

As LastPommerFan posted earlier, and should be incredibly obvious to anyone who decides to think even casually about the situation - Briere just stood around the net and MAGICALLY had the puck put on his stick for him to score those goals.

 

Gee, I wonder how those pucks got there? :rolleyes: Perhaps a teammate or two? A different offensive system? Does anyone not think that if Vanek is fed puck after puck down low like that - time after time after time - that he wouldn't score those same goals? He had 5 goals to Briere's 6 goals with 25% of the chances. Yet people dump on Vanek for what? Not going coast to coast? Briere is better because he stands behind the net and Vanek stands in front, yet have almost the same stats? Good grief.

[LastPommerFan]

[/b]

Your thought actually makes it worse. Vanek was a minus 7 in 87:39 of even strength time.

 

Right, PP Goals don't count in +/- for a reason. You can't Shouldn't get scored on with the man advantage. But like I wrote, vanek can't really be blamed for the even strength goals off defensemen turnovers while he's trying to break down ice. Vanek's job is to make like a bat out of hell as soon as he see's the puck on a Sabre Stick.

[deluca67]

Does it have to be just that one guy or can a pair combine to be that go to unit? Let's face it, there aren't enough of those #1 go to guys to go around the entire league. If they can find that right center who can consistently setup up Vanek, that's a combination I would love to have on this team and it could take them somewhere.

Like the Ducks had with Kariya and Selanne? If the Sabres could find a center to go with Vanek that he gels with you might have something. You are talking a pretty expensive pairing that would have to dominate the teams TOI and play in every situation. A throw back to LaFontaine and Mogilny would be exciting. Is Richards that guy? Would a pairing like that thrive under Lindy Ruff?

[X. Benedict]

You think Vanek would produce more with Hartnell and Leino as lien mates?

 

I'm not the world's biggest Briere fan. As players go who can take over games offensively Briere is well above Vanek in that regards.

 

All year Briere has been saying his numbers reflect being on Philly's third line...and defenses inability to match lines...and has compared the situation to Buffalo in 07.

 

So imagine....

 

Van Riemsdyk,Giroux,Powe

 

Zherdev,Richards Versteeg

 

Briere, Leino, Hartnell

 

 

What line do you stop?

[Assquatch]

This is where I am as well. Ideally, Vanek is your #3 forward on a killer top line, like a Heatley. In that role I think he could score in bunches.

Heatley? killer line? :ph34r:

 

Or we could just sign him on July 1st and not give up Miller and a pick.

 

But then we'd still be stuck with the pricetag of a $6M goalie.

[SDS]

All year Briere has been saying his numbers reflect being on Philly's third line...and defenses inability to match lines...and has compared the situation to Buffalo in 07.

 

So imagine....

 

Van Riemsdyk,Giroux,Powe

 

Zherdev,Richards Versteeg

 

Briere, Leino, Hartnell

 

 

What line do you stop?

 

You forgot Carter... unless you are speaking solely about yesterday.

[X. Benedict]

You have to consider the incredibly myopic analyses of the average hockey fan. Do you really think NF is thinking about linemates when he's jumping up and down when Briere scores? No, he just runs around in his orange jersey on with his pointer finger in the air yelling "See! I told ya so!"

 

As LastPommerFan posted earlier, and should be incredibly obvious to anyone who decides to think even casually about the situation - Briere just stood around the net and MAGICALLY had the puck put on his stick for him to score those goals.

 

Gee, I wonder how those pucks got there? :rolleyes: Perhaps a teammate or two? A different offensive system? Does anyone not think that if Vanek is fed puck after puck down low like that - time after time after time - that he wouldn't score those same goals? He had 5 goals to Briere's 6 goals with 25% of the chances. Yet people dump on Vanek for what? Not going coast to coast? Briere is better because he stands behind the net and Vanek stands in front, yet have almost the same stats? Good grief.

 

:)

 

I guess it is to be expected. Coaches are looking at forming and matching lines, while fans see individual players.

 

At HSBC in the third period in game 6 I was dizzy with the idea that Buffalo might be able to put Philly away with all the individual talent on on Philly's roster...... It crossed my mind that Laviolette was one goal away from getting fired.

 

No way should this series have been close looking at individual matchups.....

[Campy]

Not sure what Tabby Cat personality means but the guy stands in front of the net and continually gets chopped at. Vanek's game is not going in the corners and throwing the big hit but he goes to the front of the net and takes on abuse. I admit I haven't read this whole thread but I'd defend Vanek's game over SEVERAL other players on the current roster.

 

 

That's exactly the point. He's willing to go there, but if he played with anger occasionally, he'd have more space in which to operate, and players who whack and chop away would know there would be retribution. As it stands now, he gets abused in front of the net because he lets it happen. It's not his personality and I'm not necessarily faulting him for that. But if it was his personality, he'd be a much more effective hockey player

 

I'm no Vanek-basher, and I'll "even" go out on your limb and agree with you; his play is not the least effective of all the guys on the roster. But still, I gotta' call it the way I see it...

[deluca67]

All year Briere has been saying his numbers reflect being on Philly's third line...and defenses inability to match lines...and has compared the situation to Buffalo in 07.

 

So imagine....

 

Van Riemsdyk,Giroux,Powe

 

Zherdev,Richards Versteeg

 

Briere, Leino, Hartnell

 

What line do you stop?

And that is without Carter.

 

It may be unfair to ask Vanek to be a dominate player considering who has to play with. When you make $7 mil a year fairness goes out the window. He is paid to be the man offensively for the Sabres. As I said, he is a solid goal scorer just not a dominate presence. It will be up to Regier to get Vanek some help this off-season an hopefully take some pressure off.

[X. Benedict]

You forgot Carter... unless you are speaking solely about yesterday.

 

Yes...and Carter.

 

Incredible.

 

And Nodl....the guy is blazing fast.