GAME DISCUSSION THREAD

[SDS]

There was entertainment value......I give credit for that. It was fun for fans the past few months.

 

Just don't wonder why some of us avoid the casino when we know Darcy's Palace pays even money on blackjack, doesn't give you odds on the passline, and has a 0, 00, 000, and 0000 on the roulette wheel.

 

The Flyers have played your brand of Moneyball for the last 36 years since they last won the cup. They have won as many SC's as we have in that time.

 

Artificially limiting my enjoyment based upon a goal that might never come is a fool's game. If you don't allow yourself to enjoy the journey, then you are wasting valuable time - which is why I get ticked off when others try to convince ME (and people who think like me) that we really should be miserable and unhappy with the entertainment we are currently enjoying.

[Dave Dryden]

See....here is where guys that were called haters for saying we should have unloaded at the trading deadline get questioned again...but we answered it 4 years ago, 3 years ago, at the trade deadline, etc. Darcy and co. continue to deal from a position of weakness because they put themselves there.

 

We traded a 2nd round pick for an overpriced Boyes that disappeared for the most part after 2 weeks.

We turned down a reported 2nd for Connolly who is a UFA

Montador was playing well and had immense trade value....you'd get a 2nd all day. He turned into a Lindy Special healthy scratch and will walk for nothing.

Toronto turned down a 1st and 3rd for MacArthur who is in the same position as Stafford. For those of us that didn't buy into Stafford showing up when it matters...another knock that we are dour non-fans.

 

Darcy himself said that everyone was a buyer and nobody a seller. That is the definition of getting over-paid for your assets if you decide to sell. But all in the name of a feel good run from dispair to the 15th best team in the league, we stood pat....and are no better for it, minus a few games experience for 4 or 5 of the young kids that will stick around.

 

To sum this season up.....We took $500 to the blackjack table and got creamed the first half of the session, with our bankroll down to $75. Terry Pegula sat next to us at that point and we went on a roll, getting our bankroll up to $550. To Pegula, it looked like we were brilliant, turning $75 into $550. But we weren't....we were just happy to get our original money back and the false sense of exhuberation was just the removal of the pressure of sucking and losing all our money. The playoffs came, we gave back a few bucks.....and leave the table exactally where we were at $500. Yes.....we got some entertainment value, but on a real basis, we made zero ground.

 

This offseason would look a lot more promising with those extra draft picks and maybe even the chance to have dumped a Hecht or Pominville at the time to a contender. Nobody wants our underwater mortgages once the big show is over.

 

 

Now......those of us who have been critical will get questioned once again how we think we can get talent in here so fast??? We've told you the last 4 years....and because we were called miserable or overcritical, once again we get to twiddle our thumbs from a position of weakness and be lucky to see baby steps take place.

All this depends on how far the team is away from being a cup contender. If they are light years away, then you are correct. But this team has been a top team since the New Year. If that is a fluke, then we still might be light years away. But if not, it suggests the team is not as devoid of talent as you suggest. If you assume a core of 4 good young defensemen(Myers, Weber, Granagni and say Butler or Sekera), seven solid forwards(say one first line player in Vanek and five second/third line players in Roy, Pominville, Stafford , Boyes, Gerbe, Ennis) and now a viable goaltending tandem in Miller and Enroth(so Miller can be limted to 60 games or so) you don't need that much to go from where we are to being a contender. Plainly you need to acquire a stud first line center like a Richards, and two solid dependable veteran defensemen. We have enough young talent still so you could move a Sekera, Adams, Kassian, Foligno(or a Roy,Boyes if you could get something for them)to trade to get those d-men or centers. With a little luck and further improvment from the young guys, with these changes you could change a decent team to a cup contending team.

 

Again, if you think the 13 or so core is not good enough to contend for the cup with the right key additions, then my point is incorrect and you need to rip the whole thing apart. But I think the last 4 months indicates there is enough talent here for the core, and key additions can put the team over the top-- you don't need a wholesale rebuild. And this is not to defend Regier or not having the balls to make "big changes," the question is what do we need to get to where we want to go quickly, and not making change just for the sake of change.

[X. Benedict]

The Flyers have played your brand of Moneyball for the last 36 years since they last won the cup. They have won as many SC's as we have in that time.

 

Artificially limiting my enjoyment based upon a goal that might never come is a fool's game. If you don't allow yourself to enjoy the journey, then you are wasting valuable time - which is why I get ticked off when others try to convince ME (and people who think like me) that we really should be miserable and unhappy with the entertainment we are currently enjoying.

 

This was a very entertaining season and I'll take some great memories away.

 

This just might have been the series that the Flyers needed. I wouldn't be surprised if they won the cup...or if they went out in four games in round two. They are coming out of this series fairly healthy.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

In this muddle of pronouns that you created with We, They and You....somehow you come off as sounding persecuted and finally vindicated.

 

Who is this WE who told US? Where is this convergence of opinion? Where is this group-think?

 

FWIW. I've never found your musings to be quite like anyone else's.

 

Dryden was asking DeLuca, DeLuca is viewed as critical and has answered him over the years how he would solve that problem. I am sure I am viewed as critical along with another 5-10 core posters here. We all have our own little ways of going about it, but the most common theme from "the masses" has been...."Ah man...don't be a downer...put on the jersey, smoke a fatty and enjoy!"

 

It turns into one big circle. Certain posters are critical of areas that CAN be changed. They are told to chill. Things don't really change. We get expected results. More people come to understand changes need to be made over time but we waste another year.

 

Now this Pegula thing has been a wildcard. To me it looks like he's the seawater being used to cool the nuclear meltdown at the plant. It will help in the immediate short term, but long term we are all slowly dying.

 

I will never be able to say "I told you so" here. It isn't possible. The last few weeks I just wanted them to win, no matter what I felt in my gut. Now that it is over and we start to look forward again.....

[Dave Dryden]

There was entertainment value......I give credit for that. It was fun for fans the past few months.

 

Just don't wonder why some of us avoid the casino when we know Darcy's Palace pays even money on blackjack, doesn't give you odds on the passline, and has a 0, 00, 000, and 0000 on the roulette wheel.

Yet you are here.

[nfreeman]

Yes, you ARE cherry picking data here because Briere's career playoff teams have been loaded. It's not an accident that his best playoff years were 2006 and last year. Who was Vanek playing with in the playoffs this year and last?

 

 

The part where you're imagining NHL GM's backing you up isn't helping.

 

I want the more talented player and that's Vanek, whether you accept it or not. The guy just scored 5 goals in 7 games in a series where his team was completely outmatched at both ends of the ice. The Flyers could just lock onto him and try to shut him down because they weren't worried about his linemates. The fact that he was able to get as much done as he did is remarkable.

 

Briere is the better player if you throw out MOST of the games each guy has played in his career (i.e. regular season numbers) and only look at playoff numbers without any context. But you've had an axe to grind with Vanek for as long as I've been reading your posts so I'm really not surprised that this is what you're doing.

How in the world am I cherry picking? You want to use regular season stats, while I, wanton cherry-picker that I am, think playoff stats are more relevant to the question of who produces more in the playoffs. And Briere's "career playoff teams" haven't been any more loaded than his regular season teams -- so it's hard to see how Vanek's better #s in the regular season but substantially worse #s in the playoffs can be excused away by Briere being on better teams.

 

Also, Briere's playoff numbers have fluctuated very little. He's consistently put up very close to a PPG.

 

Finally, if you'd rather have an 0.556 PPG player than a 1.01 PPG player for a playoff series, you are welcome to him. Enjoy the April golf.

 

You're not going to get anywhere with him. He waits for Briere to score in order to lavish praise on him, but he is silent when he doesn't. He won't tell you HOW Briere is able to score those goals - he'll just offer a platitude about "rising to the occasion". The shallowness is even offensive to Paris Hilton and mud puddles.

 

I mean, anyone who raves about a guy on the other team in a Game 7 discussion thread (before the puck drops) and then has the balls to offer "karma advice" to the rest of us is not playing with a full deck.

Thanks for the kind words. You're right -- it's my fault they lost.

 

Also, I'm not aware of any "raving" about Briere on my part in the GDT prior to the game. I may have taken a shot at your myopia on this issue, but I'm comfortable that my pre-game posts were very much focused on the Sabres.

 

Do you really not think some players rise to the occasion in crunch time and others don't?

 

Pominville, with his price tag and injury has little to no trade value.

 

Miller, there may be but a handful of teams that would consider trading for Miller.

 

Stafford is RFA, give him his 10% raise and tell him to score 30+ again before even considering a long term deal.

 

It is going to take longer than one off-season, no matter how aggressive the team wants to be, to turn this franchise into a cup contender. They have $19 mil tied up in Vanek, Miller and Pominville and are simply not getting the desired returns from these players. That hurts considering they are all signed through the 2013-14 season. It is a must for the Sabres to come out of this years free agency period with a blue chip acquisition. If Brad Richards is the brass ring this off-season they need to get him signed one minute into free agency. The aggressiveness needs to carry over into the trade market as well as into the next off-season.

 

Pegula said that the Cup is the only reason the franchise exists. This off-season is step one in proving it.

Good post.

 

:blink:

 

Hockey is a sport that is consumed for entertainment. If that is what was delivered then it WAS a success. We just had 4 months of exciting worthwhile hockey and a game 7 to boot. You can play wanna-be-gm all day and maybe that's the part YOU find entertaining. For many of us, we'll take the actual games and leave the endless grousing for issues that really matter.

The Flyers have played your brand of Moneyball for the last 36 years since they last won the cup. They have won as many SC's as we have in that time.

 

Artificially limiting my enjoyment based upon a goal that might never come is a fool's game. If you don't allow yourself to enjoy the journey, then you are wasting valuable time - which is why I get ticked off when others try to convince ME (and people who think like me) that we really should be miserable and unhappy with the entertainment we are currently enjoying.

Who said it wasn't entertaining? Is there something wrong with wanting more than 1 round of it? For that matter, who is trying to convince you to be miserable? Seems like you're doing a great job of handling that on your own.

[Assquatch]

The Flyers have played your brand of Moneyball for the last 36 years since they last won the cup. They have won as many SC's as we have in that time.

 

Artificially limiting my enjoyment based upon a goal that might never come is a fool's game. If you don't allow yourself to enjoy the journey, then you are wasting valuable time - which is why I get ticked off when others try to convince ME (and people who think like me) that we really should be miserable and unhappy with the entertainment we are currently enjoying.

 

This is reminiscent of the discussions on the other board between the camp that wanted the Bills to lose a couple meaningless (in the big picture) games in order to secure the #1 pick to be better down the road. Of course, that Luck ended up not declaring supports the argument you have here.

 

I find myself in the other camp - though I am not trying to convince anyone that they need to see it my way. I won't be knocking on your door in a suit and tie on a Saturday morning handing out pamphlets.

 

(On second thought maybe I should leave the analogies to GoDD.)

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

The Flyers have played your brand of Moneyball for the last 36 years since they last won the cup. They have won as many SC's as we have in that time.

 

Artificially limiting my enjoyment based upon a goal that might never come is a fool's game. If you don't allow yourself to enjoy the journey, then you are wasting valuable time - which is why I get ticked off when others try to convince ME (and people who think like me) that we really should be miserable and unhappy with the entertainment we are currently enjoying.

 

I think under Terry Pegula you should enjoy yourself as he is an honest broker.

 

Under Quinn and Golisano, I tried time and time again to show you how they were playing the public in order to make money. I was told I was paranoid, not a fan, yadda yadda. Darcy and Ruff sat in tacet support at best of that regime, and told the fans many times that things were great, this is a Stanley Cup team, we're doing everything we can to win.

 

Now many of the same people that told me I was FOS about the last group is telling me everything will be great because we have new ownership that cares and Darcy will be free to do his will. Same people......a few on this very page.

 

I never try and tell anyone how they should feel. I just present the information available, sometimes in ways the average person doesn't think about. Sometimes I will be way off. For the most part, as the record has shown, i think I've shown a pretty good feel for all parties involved, Buffalo Sabres.

 

 

I WANT to LOVE this team again. And again.....Pegula doesn't need our money, so I am not going to tell anyone they are supporting the beast.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Yet you are here.

 

To get free drinks and pinch the cocktail waitress' ass!

[X. Benedict]

Dryden was asking DeLuca, DeLuca is viewed as critical and has answered him over the years how he would solve that problem. I am sure I am viewed as critical along with another 5-10 core posters here. We all have our own little ways of going about it, but the most common theme from "the masses" has been...."Ah man...don't be a downer...put on the jersey, smoke a fatty and enjoy!"

 

It turns into one big circle. Certain posters are critical of areas that CAN be changed. They are told to chill. Things don't really change. We get expected results. More people come to understand changes need to be made over time but we waste another year.

 

Now this Pegula thing has been a wildcard. To me it looks like he's the seawater being used to cool the nuclear meltdown at the plant. It will help in the immediate short term, but long term we are all slowly dying.

 

I will never be able to say "I told you so" here. It isn't possible. The last few weeks I just wanted them to win, no matter what I felt in my gut. Now that it is over and we start to look forward again.....

Forgive me for not seeing the specific context...

 

But by any standard you have to admit that you have a bleak perspective that is long on analogy: waste, dying, nuclear meltdown, another year squandered (just in this post)... :beer:

 

 

I'll take it on face value. If that's what you see that's what you see. Waste, dying, nuclear meltdown, another year squandered.

 

It happens for 29 teams every year.

[Dave Dryden]

To get free drinks and pinch the cocktail waitress' ass!

Plainly you are thinking clearly the day after defeat.

[Knightrider]

When will I stop caring? I thought I could stop posting or hanging around the forum because it would be like a moving on sort of thing but it's not working. I watch maybe parts of two or three games all year because I have to endure laughs hockey instead. I have two small kids who are my life now. And yet I get excited to put them to bed and maybe watch at the least an entertaining game, to take me back to the time where hockey was really something special and important to me. Can I move on? I'm not sure. It would be a waste not to wait for that damn Stanley Cup....I know too much about hockey, the feeling is embedded deep now. I'll just continue to hope beyond hope that they can reach that culminating point and legitamize this insanity.

 

Wow, there's a blast from the past! Great to see you! Just wait till the little ones can watch the game with you!

[Stormin Norman]

I DO NOT agree with the premise that this was a great ride and that it was an amazing, enjoyable back half of the season. This was another average, mediocre Sabres team in the end. So what if they went on a tear after New Year's? They put themselves in that position by performing so terribly BEFORE New Year's. We're supposed to be impressed? The NHL regular season is, after all, probably the most meaningless of the four major sports. If you can't get into the NHL playoffs, you really have a pretty lousy team. Sneaking into the playoffs in the final week of the season is UNIMPRESSIVE to me. (And that is NOT the same thing as advocating for winning the President's Trophy).

 

What really matters -- for players and coaches alike -- is the PLAYOFFS. What players can do in the post-season is what's important. For example: does it matter that Stafford had 30 goals (all scored in, like, 14 games) when compared to his playoff numbers? He was David Copperfield in round one, disappearing from the score sheet. Brad Boyes was a joke, afraid to go to the front of the net except for his tap-in meaningless goal when the Cryers were already in mid-celebration. I don't want to hear any more garbage about Connolly and Pomminstein getting hurt, thereby putting a big dent in our penalty killing capabilities. They are part of the failed core of this team and, if it were me, both of them would go.

 

I join those who believe the veteran core of this team is NOT good enough. Most certainly, we do not have true goal scorers and definitely no game changers. Say what you will about Briere, he scores in the playoffs. They're not looking for him to backcheck, to be physical, to kill penalties. He scores BIG goals. Some guys have the knack. Most do not. We don't have anyone with the knack any more, not since Briere and Drury both left. And, the truth is that Briere also has a strong supporting cast around him. How many of our guys are driving into the crease from all angles like Briere does in the playoffs, knowing he'll likely get nailed? Call him a goal-hanger. Fine. He's a goal hanger who SCORES big goals. We let a guy who shows up in the playoffs go and kept the pretenders.

 

I don't believe in tweaking this lineup. I think we make four or five BOLD moves this off-season. On my list of players who are expendable (in no particular order):

 

Pomminstein Roy Niedermeyer Grier Connolly Stafford

 

I give Boyes one year to show he was worth acquiring because he deserves one full season on the team to prove it. Otherwise, yet another Darcy bust. If he looks like he did AFTER scoring a few goals when he first got here, then he goes on the list, too. Vanek could be very, very good with the right players around him. Could be. I don't blame Miller in this whole thing. By and large, he was easily the main reason we went to seven games. To see it differently is insane. If we had the Philly three-headed goalie monster in our net, it was over in four.

 

I give the team credit for really playing hard in the playoffs. In my view, effort was not the issue at all. We stood up physically with the Cryers for the whole series, which I never thought we'd do. We just do NOT have the horses Philly does. It might have been over in four if the Cryers didn't have such a roller-coaster situation in goal. Reputations are made in the NHL Playoffs, not during the regular season. I will not celebrate "mediocrity" and say, "Oh, look at the promising young talent we have for the future." That's for teams who get knocked out in the first round. And for every one of those guys, we have another who comes up small in crunch time. We need more guys who come up BIG during crunch time. Period.

 

Agree with me or not, thanks for letting me purge this rant.

 

[Knightrider]

The Flyers have played your brand of Moneyball for the last 36 years since they last won the cup. They have won as many SC's as we have in that time.

 

Artificially limiting my enjoyment based upon a goal that might never come is a fool's game. If you don't allow yourself to enjoy the journey, then you are wasting valuable time - which is why I get ticked off when others try to convince ME (and people who think like me) that we really should be miserable and unhappy with the entertainment we are currently enjoying.

 

Thank you. I have 6 year old twin boys. One who's name is Nathan, is significantly smaller than the other, named Thomas. They watched more games with me this spring than I ever would have expected, somewhat because of the blossoming of Gerbe our in house rivalry of who was going to hit/score more between Gerbe and Vanek. Heck, even their mother (who likes to say sports is a waste of time) finally admitted she was hooked on them.

 

This spring was an absolute blast, and I look forward to this fall!

[X. Benedict]

The Flyers have played your brand of Moneyball for the last 36 years since they last won the cup. They have won as many SC's as we have in that time.

 

Artificially limiting my enjoyment based upon a goal that might never come is a fool's game. If you don't allow yourself to enjoy the journey, then you are wasting valuable time - which is why I get ticked off when others try to convince ME (and people who think like me) that we really should be miserable and unhappy with the entertainment we are currently enjoying.

 

Hey now.....the only meaningful hockey since the lockout has been played in Carolina, California, Michigan, Illinois, and Pittsburgh. :beer:

[deluca67]

Forgive me for not seeing the specific context...

 

But by any standard you have to admit that you have a bleak perspective that is long on analogy: waste, dying, nuclear meltdown, another year squandered (just in this post)... :beer:

 

 

I'll take it on face value. If that's what you see that's what you see. Waste, dying, nuclear meltdown, another year squandered.

It happens for 29 teams every year.

It sure would be nice to be that 1 team just once in my life time.

 

There is a board-wide resentment towards those of us who advocate change. As one of those that advocates change I have to ask a simple question. Why all the excitement over Terry Pegula? If this team is so close to being a contender and is well run and well coached what difference can he really make? There seems to be a great deal of hypocrisy among the masses since Pegula became known.

[spndnchz]

It sure would be nice to be that 1 team just once in my life time.

 

There is a board-wide resentment towards those of us who advocate change. As one of those that advocates change I have to ask a simple question. Why all the excitement over Terry Pegula? If this team is so close to being a contender and is well run and well coached what difference can he really make? There seems to be a great deal of hypocrisy among the masses since Pegula became known.

 

I wouldn't go that far.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I wouldn't go that far.

 

So then.....ummm....uh....I was wondering.....ummm....uh......will you go to the prom with me?

[deluca67]

I wouldn't go that far.

It does seem like it at times.

[spndnchz]

It does seem like it at times.

 

Maybe, but not board wide. I like change but not just "for the sake of it". Improvement is what I want. I think mentally this team is improved over last year. Maybe next year the talent gets improved along with it. It's a soap opera I tell ya.

[Dave Dryden]

I wouldn't go that far.

Me neither. Change can be good. Smart change is better. Change for change's sake is not good. Advocating change is just fine. Whether people share your draconian version of change is another thing--but no one resents it. Why would they?

[scottnc]

It sure would be nice to be that 1 team just once in my life time.

 

There is a board-wide resentment towards those of us who advocate change. As one of those that advocates change I have to ask a simple question. Why all the excitement over Terry Pegula? If this team is so close to being a contender and is well run and well coached what difference can he really make? There seems to be a great deal of hypocrisy among the masses since Pegula became known.

 

I believe they might try and actually do something this offseason instead of signing 3rd/4th line veterans and second tier D-men. Maybe we finally make a big splash in free agency or make a blockbuster trade. We know that wasn't going to happen under the old regime, but now it seems a possibility.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Maybe, but not board wide. I like change but not just "for the sake of it". Improvement is what I want. I think mentally this team is improved over last year. Maybe next year the talent gets improved along with it. It's a soap opera I tell ya.

 

I agree in full that this team showed more grit and mental endurance. When is the last time you saw me call anyone heartless or pansies? Here is the thing....a lot of that came from new guys like Gerbe, Weber and Enroth. The guys you pay still underperform when the game changes in the playoffs for the most part.

[X. Benedict]

It sure would be nice to be that 1 team just once in my life time.

 

There is a board-wide resentment towards those of us who advocate change. As one of those that advocates change I have to ask a simple question. Why all the excitement over Terry Pegula? If this team is so close to being a contender and is well run and well coached what difference can he really make? There seems to be a great deal of hypocrisy among the masses since Pegula became known.

Honestly, I think this is complete BS. (But I don't dispute that you imagine it)

 

A general brush of hypocrisy...please.

 

Change is inevitable...and almost everyone on the board advocates for some kind of it all the time. (no?) Some want more, some want less. Some want gradual, some want radical .

[Dave Dryden]

It sure would be nice to be that 1 team just once in my life time.

 

There is a board-wide resentment towards those of us who advocate change. As one of those that advocates change I have to ask a simple question. Why all the excitement over Terry Pegula? If this team is so close to being a contender and is well run and well coached what difference can he really make? There seems to be a great deal of hypocrisy among the masses since Pegula became known.

Because he has the wherewithal and stated objective of making changes, i.e., spending money, that will add needed talent that might get us a cup. But how you do it, and wisely, will determine if the team gets better, or they waste the money. You would spend a lot of money on a Kovalchuk, others would not because unlike you they don't think it will make the team a cup contender. Spend a bunch of money on a Zach Parise--which Pegula can afford-- and I'm right there with you. But it's a difference of opinion on how to spend someone else's money--Pegula's-- not a debate on change or no change. The team is not good enough to win a cup right now--if you want to win a cup you have to make changes--it's tautological.