The Chara incident

[Weave]

I've come to the conclusion that there is a subset of hockey fans that revels in violence. Watching someone get hurt or, even better, experiencing the excitement of seeing a human being wheeled off the ice on a stretcher is part of why they buy tickets.

 

But they would never admit this. So instead of saying they don't want extreme violence (like what happened to Max Pacioretty) taken out of the game, they just say they don't want "hitting" taken out of the game. Or they just say that it's a "violent sport" where "guys sometimes get hurt" and that you can't really judge anyone because these plays happen so fast.

 

The reality is that they just like this stuff. It's a big deal and not something you see in everyday life.

 

When I was at the World Juniors two months ago, Zack Kassian knocked a Czech player out of the game with a hit. The hit itself looked legal, but I was surrounded by Canadian fans who were actually mocking the Czech kid while he was being wheeled off the ice on a stretcher. They weren't celebrating a legal open-ice hit; they were celebrating a head/neck injury....to a teenager.

It's hard to stay in love with hockey when this is the culture it's built around.

 

I was at that game as well. I thought it was a good hit at the time but couldn't bring myself about to cheer it given the kid laying motionless on the ice. There was alot of cheering and mocking of that kid laying there. I don't know if it was the majority but it sure was alot of them doing the cheering and smack talk. I was unsettled by the idea of human beings cheering a play that resulted in a kid (a KID for crying out loud) laying motionless on the ice.

[dumb_dumb88]

My thoughts?

 

I think if this goes ahead, Malkin should take Myers to civil court for physical damage and lost future earnings as a direct result of a careless hit when Malkin was clearly in a vulnerable position and Myers took advantage of it.

 

Be careful what you wish for, kiddies.

You'd have to show intent.

In the Malkin/Myers incident, if you take the time to watch the replay, Myers is actually facing backwards and lost his footing while hitting Malkins knee.

I do not believe you can prove intent there.

 

Also, be advised, just because it's a sport does not give immunity to situations from law enforcement, that's just not reality. If a crime has been reported, then it must be investigated to the fullest to ensure justice is done. Hockey is just hockey, justice is a much more serious matter and takes precedence all day long, even if it involves hockey or any other sport for that matter.

[Robviously]

I can't see the hockey because of the stretchers and EMTs.....

To some people, a significant number, that is hockey. That's why they watch.

 

To the people who are terrified that the league might try to address hits like this, I'd like to ask: Do you think NBA fans are jealous of hockey fans right now? Are NBA fans sitting around saying "Gosh, it's fun watching stars like Kobe Bryant and Dwight Howard play ball, but is there any way we could incorporate serious brain injuries into this? I'm getting tired of seeing all these star players have long careers -- is there a way someone could get a broken neck?"

 

Yeah, probably not.

[SabresMojo]

I've come to the conclusion that there is a subset of hockey fans that revels in violence. Watching someone get hurt or, even better, experiencing the excitement of seeing a human being wheeled off the ice on a stretcher is part of why they buy tickets.

 

But they would never admit this. So instead of saying they don't want extreme violence (like what happened to Max Pacioretty) taken out of the game, they just say they don't want "hitting" taken out of the game. Or they just say that it's a "violent sport" where "guys sometimes get hurt" and that you can't really judge anyone because these plays happen so fast.

 

The reality is that they just like this stuff. It's a big deal and not something you see in everyday life.

 

When I was at the World Juniors two months ago, Zack Kassian knocked a Czech player out of the game with a hit. The hit itself looked legal, but I was surrounded by Canadian fans who were actually mocking the Czech kid while he was being wheeled off the ice on a stretcher. They weren't celebrating a legal open-ice hit; they were celebrating a head/neck injury....to a teenager.

 

It's hard to stay in love with hockey when this is the culture it's built around.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpAQu5y4oO0

 

The players head wasnt hit as clearly as Pac's but the point you have made is crucial and one that Im sure everyone can agree with.

Celebrating a great hit is one thing, but the fact that one player is hurt and is being cheered b/c he is hurt...unacceptable.

[Wraith]

If that exact play happened on the other side of the ice where the glass is continuous, it would have looked like a bump into the boards that we would not even be talking about.

This is total bull. The partition was in Chara's view the ENTIRE time. If I push you off the edge of the Grand Canyon, can I rationally claim that I'm innocent because if I'd pushed you in the parking lot, you wouldn't have died? No, of course not, because the actual circumstances matter.

 

Also, those of you trying to argue intent or not. Don't bother. Our own legal system doesn't even try to sort that out. If someone dies during the commission of a crime, it's murder even if it was inadvertent. Hell, robbery victims have died of heart attacks during the robbery and it's murder. Does anyone actually believe the NHL punishment system should require a heavier burden of proof than our legal system?

 

Chara was doing something against the rules. In addition, he was doing something reckless and dangerous. Someone got severely injured as a direct result. He should be suspended. It's so simple.

[biodork]

This is interesting -- obviously written prior to the statement by Murphy:

 

Chara will be suspended for his actions, there is no doubt about that.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/630967-zdeno-charas-ugly-hit-leave-pacioretty-hospitalized-questions-unanswered

[thesportsbuff]

This is total bull. The partition was in Chara's view the ENTIRE time. If I push you off the edge of the Grand Canyon, can I rationally claim that I'm innocent because if I'd pushed you in the parking lot, you wouldn't have died? No, of course not, because the actual circumstances matter.

 

Also, those of you trying to argue intent or not. Don't bother. Our own legal system doesn't even try to sort that out. If someone dies during the commission of a crime, it's murder even if it was inadvertent. Hell, robbery victims have died of heart attacks during the robbery and it's murder. Does anyone actually believe the NHL punishment system should require a heavier burden of proof than our legal system?

 

Chara was doing something against the rules. In addition, he was doing something reckless and dangerous. Someone got severely injured as a direct result. He should be suspended. It's so simple.

 

+100

 

Couldn't have said it better. The more I watch the hit the more furious I am that no discipline was handed down. I hope nobody gets decapitated tonight from the NHL's poster boy role model defenseman.

[Robviously]

I was at that game as well. I thought it was a good hit at the time but couldn't bring myself about to cheer it given the kid laying motionless on the ice. There was alot of cheering and mocking of that kid laying there. I don't know if it was the majority but it sure was alot of them doing the cheering and smack talk. I was unsettled by the idea of human beings cheering a play that resulted in a kid (a KID for crying out loud) laying motionless on the ice.

I don't think it was a majority either but it was enough people that it was really unnerving. They just saw some teenager suffer a serious head injury about 6000 miles from home and they were deliriously happy about it. It was like they'd won something. They were so satisfied with what they were seeing.

 

It basically ruined the rest of the game for me even though I liked watching Foligno play well and wanted Canada to win. I felt like I was surrounded by a bunch of sociopaths who were there for much different reasons than I was.

[Eleven]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpAQu5y4oO0

 

The players head wasnt hit as clearly as Pac's but the point you have made is crucial and one that Im sure everyone can agree with.

Celebrating a great hit is one thing, but the fact that one player is hurt and is being cheered b/c he is hurt...unacceptable.

 

I still think that was a clean hit (and I'm not being a homer; anyone can refer to my posts last year regarding Kassian's suspension, if they doubt it), but your point is the crowd, and you're right, it's classless.

 

But before we become too proud, two words: Campbell, Umberger. I'll admit that I was cheering that hit for longer than necessary.

 

It's a lot different when it's your team and the evil Flyers, isn't it?

[thesportsbuff]

By the way, Montador who I believe played with Chara believes it should have been a suspension. Of course the geniuses on NHL live quickly dismissed his comments because he "has an agenda" since Buffalo plays Boston tonight.

[SabresMojo]

I still think that was a clean hit (and I'm not being a homer; anyone can refer to my posts last year regarding Kassian's suspension, if they doubt it), but your point is the crowd, and you're right, it's classless.

 

But before we become too proud, two words: Campbell, Umberger. I'll admit that I was cheering that hit for longer than necessary.

 

It's a lot different when it's your team and the evil Flyers, isn't it?

 

I'll admit, I was cheering too...because it was a hell of a hit and knocked him on his ass!

But when he was down and I came back to normal mode and not wild, I was concerned because he did look out of it (which he was)

[Robviously]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpAQu5y4oO0

 

The players head wasnt hit as clearly as Pac's but the point you have made is crucial and one that Im sure everyone can agree with.

Celebrating a great hit is one thing, but the fact that one player is hurt and is being cheered b/c he is hurt...unacceptable.

Watching that again for the first time in a couple months:

1. Kassian seems to move his left arm in against his own body right before the hit. He isn't trying to get an elbow out or anything. Instead, he's making himself compact to collide with Senkerik body to body. He's definitely not aiming for his head even though he catches Senkerik there when they turn into each other for the collision.

 

2. Kassian's reaction is telling. He looks surprised at what happened, and a little bit concerned/alarmed. He's not celebrating. He skates back to his bench to watch the replay on the jumbotron because I don't think even he knows what just happened. Compare this to Chara who immediately began picking a fight with the other Canadiens players on the ice and had to be separated from them by the refs. He knew what he did and he wasn't backing down.

[darksabre]

I've come to the conclusion that there is a subset of hockey fans that revels in violence. Watching someone get hurt or, even better, experiencing the excitement of seeing a human being wheeled off the ice on a stretcher is part of why they buy tickets.

 

But they would never admit this. So instead of saying they don't want extreme violence (like what happened to Max Pacioretty) taken out of the game, they just say they don't want "hitting" taken out of the game. Or they just say that it's a "violent sport" where "guys sometimes get hurt" and that you can't really judge anyone because these plays happen so fast.

 

The reality is that they just like this stuff. It's a big deal and not something you see in everyday life.

 

When I was at the World Juniors two months ago, Zack Kassian knocked a Czech player out of the game with a hit. The hit itself looked legal, but I was surrounded by Canadian fans who were actually mocking the Czech kid while he was being wheeled off the ice on a stretcher. They weren't celebrating a legal open-ice hit; they were celebrating a head/neck injury....to a teenager.

 

It's hard to stay in love with hockey when this is the culture it's built around.

 

Fantastic post.

[SabresMojo]

By the way, Montador who I believe played with Chara believes it should have been a suspension. Of course the geniuses on NHL live quickly dismissed his comments because he "has an agenda" since Buffalo plays Boston tonight.

 

Of course they did...

Watch NHL OTF...the players they had were Kessel, Monty, and a Sens player (forgot who; but played w/ Chara).

Monty was the only one who said a suspension should have happened, other two stated that it was "unfortunate"...

[LGR4GM]

...really montreal police? I already made the point that during a felony if someone dies your responsible but that meant since chara was doing something illegal he should be responsible and suspended, but police... pacioretty didnt even ask for police (unless is was quietly behind closed doors) This hit warranted a suspension and now its getting stupid because the nhl couldnt let its balls drop, man up, and say "you were interfering, which was illegal and a guy got hurt, here's 3 games suffer." After watching the Kassian hit, I am sorry but that was a clean hit and IK that it wasn't the nhl who suspended him but damn what would they have done to chara? NHL = a bunch of pucking p^ssies. EPIC FAIL! :wallbash:

[dumb_dumb88]

...really montreal police? I already made the point that during a felony if someone dies your responsible but that meant since chara was doing something illegal he should be responsible and suspended, but police... pacioretty didnt even ask for police (unless is was quietly behind closed doors) This hit warranted a suspension and now its getting stupid because the nhl couldnt let its balls drop, man up, and say "you were interfering, which was illegal and a guy got hurt, here's 3 games suffer." After watching the Kassian hit, I am sorry but that was a clean hit and IK that it wasn't the nhl who suspended him but damn what would they have done to chara? NHL = a bunch of pucking p^ssies. EPIC FAIL! :wallbash:

Once again, if someone reports a crime it must be investigated. It's not as though the police just watched the game and said let's get this guy, someone had to actually report that an assault occured, my guess is the player that was injured or someone immediately around him, but it also could have been anyone of thousands of fans who watched the game on TV as well as actually at the arena.

 

Matters of Justice take precedence over a sport, even hockey.

[thesportsbuff]

Of course they did...

Watch NHL OTF...the players they had were Kessel, Monty, and a Sens player (forgot who; but played w/ Chara).

Monty was the only one who said a suspension should have happened, other two stated that it was "unfortunate"...

 

Yup thats' where I saw it... I like Kessel but his comments were down-right stupid. "He's a great guy, a great teammate. I don't think that he deliberately tried to hurt the guy. I think it's an unfortunate situation where the glass is in the wrong spot." lol. No. I don't think the glass was in the wrong spot. It's in roughly the same spot in every single arena and there's no way Chara doesn't know the partition is coming up at the end of that line of 18 red sweaters sitting on the bench... I just can't believe the people saying he didn't know where he was on the ice. So stupid.

 

 

BTW, the other guy you're talking about from Ottawa? Chris Neal. Seriously, Chris Neal? Is he even allowed to have an opinion on what is or isn't dirty?

[That Aud Smell]

I can't see the hockey because of all the pitchforks and torches.

i'd commend puck daddy's write-up of the current view of the incident to your attention.

 

this item in particular caught my attention:

 

Tanner Glass of the Vancouver Canucks was one of the first players to really speak up about the intent to injure from Chara, via Jason Botchford of the Vancouver Province:

 

"If you polled 700 NHL players, 680 would say he knows exactly what he's doing and knows the turnbuckle is there."

 

"I thought it was a dirty play. I thought he knew exactly what he was doing."

 

even if glass is being heavy with his estimate that 97% (97%!) of players in the league would say chara knew what he was doing, i think it's more than safe to say that an overwhelming majority of players would take the view that chara knew what he was doing, but that he didn't mean for the thing to turn out as badly as it did.

 

but this is why people get charged with manslaughter when their car hits and kills someone when they were driving at a reckless speed. the d.a. need not show that the driver intended to kill the victim, s/he need only show that the driver was knowingly doing something really dangerous, and then something terrible happened. the chara incident is no different.

[inkman]

I'm done with this thread. I can't see the hockey because of all the pitchforks and torches.

Funny because I didn't see much hockey in Chara's hit either. If guys get injured during a normal hockey play so be it, but Chara has to be aware of the situation he was about to get himself into. Even if he didn't intentionally try to kill Pacioretti, he knew what side of the ice he was on, he knew he was at the bench. Only a matter of time/space before that ends. If he didn't know these factors, he's borderline retarded and has no business near a professional sports arena. (unless he has a ticket and rode on the short bus to get there)

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

You'd have to show intent.

In the Malkin/Myers incident, if you take the time to watch the replay, Myers is actually facing backwards and lost his footing while hitting Malkins knee.

I do not believe you can prove intent there.

 

Also, be advised, just because it's a sport does not give immunity to situations from law enforcement, that's just not reality. If a crime has been reported, then it must be investigated to the fullest to ensure justice is done. Hockey is just hockey, justice is a much more serious matter and takes precedence all day long, even if it involves hockey or any other sport for that matter.

 

But the point is, how do you show intent in the Chara case? It was a dangerous play and not sportsmanlike to hit a guy near the bench at full speed in general. I am not denying that and it is dirty in that sense. However, people advocating that he intended to guide his head into a 90 degree angle wedge at 20mph......that is attempted murder. I was recently at a place I was not familiar with and some riffraff was walking towards me as I was stationary outside. I quickly assesed the situation, stayed put, but identified a pillar between me and the wall I was against. If worse came to worse, I could use the wedge it formed as a last ditch effort to survive a brutal jumping.....but even in that case, there is no turning back if I was to do something like that. This is true and happened just a few weeks ago, so when I see people saying Chara wanted to drive the guy's head into that wedge.....I say it almost can't be the case. If I could understand the brutal nature of doing something like that to any of 4 strangers who could be looking for trouble and outnumbered me in a strange city, but would only do so in the most dire of circumstances and probably STILL wouldn't do it....then how am I to believe Chara willingly aimed and shoved his head into that partition at 20 MPH? Either Chara is an absolute evil being.....or the most stupid person on the planet.

 

I believe he either intended to plant him in the bench, or if he did follow through at the end thought he'd get him on the glass in front of the box. It was a dangerous and poor sportsman decision....but to say he wanted to drive the guy's skull into the wedge doesn't make sense. If other players really believed that was his intent, don't worry...Chara will get his. I think that's why Montreal didn't start a brawl right then. It's almost impossible to believe he wanted to kill the guy....and by purposely driving his head there....that is the intention.

 

The NHL knows that legal precident and all sorts of stuff is on the line by not suspending Chara. If they admit it was intentional, then they are inviting legal action and criminal action. Looks like it's coming anyway, but they have an alibi.

 

I don't condone the hit and especially the results. I am however a realist.

 

And for those that feel the NHL is disgusting and feel others are celebrating violence in all this, I personally challange you to NOT WATCH ANY OF THE NEXT BRUINS/MONTREAL GAME!!!! I don't want to hear about it before the game, I don't want you watching the game, I don't want you looking for highlights. Avoid the travesty that is the NHL and the follow-up to their barbaric decision. And don't give me the "Oh...but it's a conference game with playoff implications." Bologna. You know that the potential is there for violence and vigilante justice, so if you are as disgusted as you say you are by this......avoid that game at all costs if you are sincere in your viewpoint. And for those that will tune in anyway after your public disgust about the "direction of the game", :oops:

[SabresMojo]

Yup thats' where I saw it... I like Kessel but his comments were down-right stupid. "He's a great guy, a great teammate. I don't think that he deliberately tried to hurt the guy. I think it's an unfortunate situation where the glass is in the wrong spot." lol. No. I don't think the glass was in the wrong spot. It's in roughly the same spot in every single arena and there's no way Chara doesn't know the partition is coming up at the end of that line of 18 red sweaters sitting on the bench... I just can't believe the people saying he didn't know where he was on the ice. So stupid.

 

 

BTW, the other guy you're talking about from Ottawa? Chris Neal. Seriously, Chris Neal? Is he even allowed to have an opinion on what is or isn't dirty?

 

It was Neal? I was gonna say Spezza but didnt think it was him...

 

Yes Kessel's comment was just mindboggling and the lack of knowledge he presented.

Chara has been in an NHL rink for how long? Long enough to know where the partition is.

 

I do love the stat posted above with the 680 out of 700 saying that he knew what he was doing.

Probably very close to being accurate and those 20 would probably be other players w/ a history.

[thesportsbuff]

It was Neal? I was gonna say Spezza but didnt think it was him...

 

Yes Kessel's comment was just mindboggling and the lack of knowledge he presented.

Chara has been in an NHL rink for how long? Long enough to know where the partition is.

 

I do love the stat posted above with the 680 out of 700 saying that he knew what he was doing.

Probably very close to being accurate and those 20 would probably be other players w/ a history.

 

Actually Spezza chimed in, too, so I don't remember which one was on OTF. But here are their comments:

 

Jason Spezza, Senators: "I really think it was more bad luck than anything. It's a physical game, but nobody is trying to hurt each other."

 

Chris Neil, Senators: "He's pretty honest and pretty physical. That's what makes him the defenseman he is. He's pretty physical and he finishes his checks. That's part of the game."

 

A few other players' reactions, too: http://www.necn.com/03/10/11/NHL-reaction-to-Charas-hit/landing_sports.html?blockID=437327&feedID=6097

[...]

Funny because I didn't see much hockey in Chara's hit either. If guys get injured during a normal hockey play so be it, but Chara has to be aware of the situation he was about to get himself into. Even if he didn't intentionally try to kill Pacioretti, he knew what side of the ice he was on, he knew he was at the bench. Only a matter of time/space before that ends. If he didn't know these factors, he's borderline retarded and has no business near a professional sports arena. (unless he has a ticket and rode on the short bus to get there)

 

 

This. After reading this thread, reading and listening to player interviews, reading what Pacioretty had to say about it, watching the video a dozen times, looking at the still, I am quite convinced that Chara knew what he was doing. I am convinced he didn't foresee this outcome, but he knew he was going to put a hurting on Pacioretty.

 

I think the League has totally dropped the ball here, and while it's ugly, I'm glad to see the League being called out for not making the right call.

[Ohiofan]

I've come to the conclusion that there is a subset of hockey fans that revels in violence. Watching someone get hurt or, even better, experiencing the excitement of seeing a human being wheeled off the ice on a stretcher is part of why they buy tickets.

 

But they would never admit this. So instead of saying they don't want extreme violence (like what happened to Max Pacioretty) taken out of the game, they just say they don't want "hitting" taken out of the game. Or they just say that it's a "violent sport" where "guys sometimes get hurt" and that you can't really judge anyone because these plays happen so fast.

 

The reality is that they just like this stuff. It's a big deal and not something you see in everyday life.

 

When I was at the World Juniors two months ago, Zack Kassian knocked a Czech player out of the game with a hit. The hit itself looked legal, but I was surrounded by Canadian fans who were actually mocking the Czech kid while he was being wheeled off the ice on a stretcher. They weren't celebrating a legal open-ice hit; they were celebrating a head/neck injury....to a teenager.

 

It's hard to stay in love with hockey when this is the culture it's built around.

I work in the motorsports industry, and we witness the same subset of fans with regards to crashes. Everyone will tell you that they hate to see them, but me, and a lot of other track operators, are convinced that danger, or just the thought of danger, sells tickets. People actually do die in my business. This past summer we had a fatality at our place, guy on a motorcycle. Worst day of my life. We take every precaution in regards to safety for our drivers, but you know, the guardrail was there, and he got tangled up in it.

There is a sigh of relief when a driver walks away from a crash. But when they don't, there is a sort of hushed "I was there...I saw it" kind of excitement in the crowd. It's hard to explain, but it's there.

I realize that a hockey game is different from a drag race. You don't see a car in the right lane INTENTIONALLY cross over and ram the car in the left lane into the wall/guardrail. I believe Chara knew exactly what he was doing. I also believe that a lot of fans of any sport attend events not only for the game/event itself, but also for the possibility that they may see some sort of incident. I think it's human nature...remember the Romans? They packed those coliseums just waiting to see some blood. And they cheered. We are much more civilized as humans now, but there is still a little bit inside of some of us that waits for this kind of thing.

[SabresMojo]

But the point is, how do you show intent in the Chara case? It was a dangerous play and not sportsmanlike to hit a guy near the bench at full speed in general. I am not denying that and it is dirty in that sense. However, people advocating that he intended to guide his head into a 90 degree angle wedge at 20mph......that is attempted murder. I was recently at a place I was not familiar with and some riffraff was walking towards me as I was stationary outside. I quickly assesed the situation, stayed put, but identified a pillar between me and the wall I was against. If worse came to worse, I could use the wedge it formed as a last ditch effort to survive a brutal jumping.....but even in that case, there is no turning back if I was to do something like that. This is true and happened just a few weeks ago, so when I see people saying Chara wanted to drive the guy's head into that wedge.....I say it almost can't be the case. If I could understand the brutal nature of doing something like that to any of 4 strangers who could be looking for trouble and outnumbered me in a strange city, but would only do so in the most dire of circumstances and probably STILL wouldn't do it....then how am I to believe Chara willingly aimed and shoved his head into that partition at 20 MPH? Either Chara is an absolute evil being.....or the most stupid person on the planet.

 

I believe he either intended to plant him in the bench, or if he did follow through at the end thought he'd get him on the glass in front of the box. It was a dangerous and poor sportsman decision....but to say he wanted to drive the guy's skull into the wedge doesn't make sense. If other players really believed that was his intent, don't worry...Chara will get his. I think that's why Montreal didn't start a brawl right then. It's almost impossible to believe he wanted to kill the guy....and by purposely driving his head there....that is the intention.

 

The NHL knows that legal precident and all sorts of stuff is on the line by not suspending Chara. If they admit it was intentional, then they are inviting legal action and criminal action. Looks like it's coming anyway, but they have an alibi.

 

I don't condone the hit and especially the results. I am however a realist.

 

And for those that feel the NHL is disgusting and feel others are celebrating violence in all this, I personally challange you to NOT WATCH ANY OF THE NEXT BRUINS/MONTREAL GAME!!!! I don't want to hear about it before the game, I don't want you watching the game, I don't want you looking for highlights. Avoid the travesty that is the NHL and the follow-up to their barbaric decision. And don't give me the "Oh...but it's a conference game with playoff implications." Bologna. You know that the potential is there for violence and vigilante justice, so if you are as disgusted as you say you are by this......avoid that game at all costs if you are sincere in your viewpoint. And for those that will tune in anyway after your public disgust about the "direction of the game", :oops:

 

+100! Great post.

:worthy:

:thumbsup:

 

The fact that people will turn in to see violence is kind of absurd.

I mean I'll turn in to see what happens and if they try to attack Chara, but I'll watch it because I know they put on good games and all that; not just for the violence...UFC is for that (which I also love lol)

 

The bolded comment is so true.

Seems like a smart man, but his comments say otherwise.