DEFENSE

[BuffaloSoldier2010]

While perusing the sabres website, i noted that one of the new background images was for Shaone Morrisonn, and it got me thinking...

 

Who is the true core of this team right now? And how much is it going to change in the next few years? Personally I'm not a fan of Morrisonn, or the majority of our defensive corps for that matter. Are these guys really going to grow into a formidable defensive wall in a few years? Or do we need to clean house (with the exception of Myers) and completely renovate the blueline?

[craze]

I don't think the defense is a total redo. I think Weber has the most potential of the current group (outside of Myers of course). Butler is still young so you never know. Sekera also has a lot of upside. Campbell took some time to develop and hopefully Sekera takes a big step very soon. So I think there is some quality and potential there but I think it does need an upgrade as I don't see another defenseman that can be considered a true top two defenseman outside of Myers. I thought we should have traded Leopold this year while his value was high.

[Derrico]

While perusing the sabres website, i noted that one of the new background images was for Shaone Morrisonn, and it got me thinking...

 

Who is the true core of this team right now? And how much is it going to change in the next few years? Personally I'm not a fan of Morrisonn, or the majority of our defensive corps for that matter. Are these guys really going to grow into a formidable defensive wall in a few years? Or do we need to clean house (with the exception of Myers) and completely renovate the blueline?

 

I wouldn't consider Morrisson one of our 'core' Dmen. This is his first year on the team and his deal is up at the end of next season. I do, however think that Myers, Weber, Butler and Sekera will make the core group. I'm hoping that the Sabres can add a top end Dman and roll with Leopold for the forseeable future. I am also not very impressed with our D but if we could get a top end guy to play with Tyler, all of that would change.

[LGR4GM]

Thankfully we may found out this offseason as there are a ton of UFA defensemen. Butler or Sekera is what I am thinking and Weber and Myers are going to be here awhile. Leopold has been solid for the most part and i wouldnt be opposed to resigning montador for another year. Should be interesting to see what happens on JULY 1 as Butler, Sekera, Weber are RFA and Montador is a UFA so we could conceivably redo our whole def.

[BuffaloSoldier2010]

I'm still extremely iffy on Butler, i can't remember the last time i saw so many pucks deflect into our own net off one individuals skates. I know that has very little to do with defensive play but can we really afford to have someone that unlucky parked in front of miller on the PK for the foreseeable future?

[shrader]

I don't think the defense is a total redo. I think Weber has the most potential of the current group (outside of Myers of course). Butler is still young so you never know. Sekera also has a lot of upside. Campbell took some time to develop and hopefully Sekera takes a big step very soon. So I think there is some quality and potential there but I think it does need an upgrade as I don't see another defenseman that can be considered a true top two defenseman outside of Myers. I thought we should have traded Leopold this year while his value was high.

 

I'd just like to throw it out there that Sekera is only 4 months older than Butler. If Butler's still young, that same label probably applies to Sekera as well.

[Derrico]

I'd just like to throw it out there that Sekera is only 4 months older than Butler. If Butler's still young, that same label probably applies to Sekera as well.

 

Agreed, Shakira is still young. Give them time. Although I think that he has way more potential than Butler.

[frisky]

I think the young guys on D will mature with time and we should let them keep developing (i.e. Myers, Weber, Sekera, Butler). I do think we could upgrade on the vets though. I like Leopold. I think we could upgrade over Monty and Morrisonn. Although, looking at the UFA market, I don't see much of an improvement out there available that fits the criteria they publicly put forth in improving for coming years. Most are on the down hill side or will hit the down hill slope very shortly. I'm not sure how much of a lasting impact you can have when you're almost in the mid-30's for many of them (with the exception of Lidstrom). But, I could be wrong.

[LabattBlue]

I think the Sabres have Myers and then a bunch of 4-5-6-7 guys(Sekera, Weber, Morrison, Montador, Leopold & butler). Do any of these guys have the potential to move into 1-2-3 roles? Maybe Sekera & Weber. But have no fear, the Sabres have a ton of blueliners in the pipeline and probably 3 more come draft day 2011...

 

Scheistel

Crawford

Gragnani

McNabb

Persson

Pysyk

Brennan

Fienhage

Biega

etc...

[Kristian]

I'm still extremely iffy on Butler, i can't remember the last time i saw so many pucks deflect into our own net off one individuals skates. I know that has very little to do with defensive play but can we really afford to have someone that unlucky parked in front of miller on the PK for the foreseeable future?

 

I do - Dimitri Kalinin would be a multiple 40-goal scorer if scoring in your own net counted, and Richard Smehlik was a natural at it as well.

 

Every team has one, and there's nothing you can do about it really.

[X. Benedict]

I think the Sabres have Myers and then a bunch of 4-5-6-7 guys(Sekera, Weber, Morrison, Montador, Leopold & butler). Do any of these guys have the potential to move into 1-2-3 roles? Maybe Sekera & Weber. But have no fear, the Sabres have a ton of blueliners in the pipeline and probably 3 more come draft day 2011...

 

Scheistel

Crawford

Gragnani

McNabb

Persson

Pysyk

Brennan

Fienhage

Biega

etc...

 

I think Scheistel is an NHL player.

 

I think McNabb and Pysyk are as well.

 

Brennan has an interesting skill set, but i dunno....

[carpandean]

I want to say that I heard Darcy answering questions about Sekera the other day and, of course, he talked about how defenseman take longer to develop. He suggested that teams often buy (trade, FA) defenseman, because they don't have the time to wait for them to develop. It's a good point. The idea of young players is that you get them cheaply on entry-level contracts. However, if they are taking that whole contract to develop, is it worth it? For someone like Myers, yes. But, if you take an entire entry-level contract to develop a guy that can be replaced in FA or through trade at not too much cost, what benefit is it, really? It's a different story with forwards, as you can often get good production during that entry-level contract and they are generally more expensive to get in FA.

[JJFIVEOH]

I'm still extremely iffy on Butler, i can't remember the last time i saw so many pucks deflect into our own net off one individuals skates. I know that has very little to do with defensive play but can we really afford to have someone that unlucky parked in front of miller on the PK for the foreseeable future?

 

Not including Myers?

[nfreeman]

I want to say that I heard Darcy answering questions about Sekera the other day and, of course, he talked about how defenseman take longer to develop. He suggested that teams often buy (trade, FA) defenseman, because they don't have the time to wait for them to develop. It's a good point. The idea of young players is that you get them cheaply on entry-level contracts. However, if they are taking that whole contract to develop, is it worth it? For someone like Myers, yes. But, if you take an entire entry-level contract to develop a guy that can be replaced in FA or through trade at not too much cost, what benefit is it, really? It's a different story with forwards, as you can often get good production during that entry-level contract and they are generally more expensive to get in FA.

Pretty interesting point. I guess I'd respond that even when veteran defensemen join a new team, there is usually a pretty substantial learning curve. I think the Sabres saw this with Spacek and Montador (and to a lesser degree Morrisson and Leopold -- I think Leopold's admittedly strong offensive numbers have covered up for some defensive deficiencies, while Morrisonn was pretty shaky at the beginning of the season but I think is playing pretty solid D now), the Blackhawks saw it initially with Soupy and the Senators are seeing it with Gonchar. OTOH, if a young defenseman grows up with a team and a system, he's more apt to add greater value in, say, his fifth year than a new five-year vet joining the team would.

[shrader]

I think Scheistel is an NHL player.

 

I think McNabb and Pysyk are as well.

 

Brennan has an interesting skill set, but i dunno....

 

I'm curious to see how Biega is viewed by the organization. He's got solid numbers in Portland, leading all d-men in +/- as a rookie. Obviously stats don't paint the whole picture though. Scheistel appears to have more offensive upside right now with an extra year under his belt. Maybe Biega can make a similar 2nd year jump like Scheistel has (granted he's older and a couple inches shorter).

[korab rules]

I would add a couple points here. First, because of the extended rfa rules for players with little or no NHL playing time, we really have these guys as indentured servants and can afford to wait. Darcy's point is accurate, but also a huge financial benefit to a team with an internal cap.

 

If leopold didn't have double digit goals people would be all over him as he has been shaky in his own end. Monty morrisonn and leopold are just parts. Replace them with better parts if you can. Myers is the real deal. Weber is going to be almost a's valuable as myers if he continues to develop, but with a completely different skill set.

 

If the kids in Portland can develop and fill a 6 or 7 spot, great. If not, ship 'em out. Who knows, draft enough and they find another weber or soupy.

[dumb_dumb88]

I want to say that I heard Darcy answering questions about Sekera the other day and, of course, he talked about how defenseman take longer to develop. He suggested that teams often buy (trade, FA) defenseman, because they don't have the time to wait for them to develop. It's a good point. The idea of young players is that you get them cheaply on entry-level contracts. However, if they are taking that whole contract to develop, is it worth it? For someone like Myers, yes. But, if you take an entire entry-level contract to develop a guy that can be replaced in FA or through trade at not too much cost, what benefit is it, really? It's a different story with forwards, as you can often get good production during that entry-level contract and they are generally more expensive to get in FA.

Many good points here and I have an example of patience in development with Defensive prospects.

 

Mike Weber

Drafted 2nd (57th overall) in the 2006 entry draft.

They tried him out for a handful of games in the 07/08 and 08/09 seasons.

He was already a shutdown D man in the OHL with Windsor and Barrier but I feel they gave him the time in the AHL to transition his game to the pros and it's paying dividens big now.

I don't consider Weber a 6 or 7 defenseman, he's definitely a 3 or 4 guy, more likely a 3 guy. He is a very good shut down Defenseman.

 

Sekera in contrast didn't spend nearly as much time in the AHL to hone his skills, I believe he has been under a heavy learning curve this season. It would have been prudent in my opinion to allow him another season in the AHL. It may seem like an awfully long transition period, but I believe it would have benefitted him as I said.

 

Butler I thought was a crap shoot when they drafted him in 05. Would an additional season in the AHL have helped his game? My belief is no, in Butler you get what you see, a true 6 to 7 defender at best. A depth defender in my opinion.

 

I think Brennan needs another season or maybe even 2 in the AHL to learn to use his size on the defensive side. He has some very good skill on the offensive side.

 

Schiestel is a very good bet for a 5 or 6 spot on the roster in camp next season, but the knee injury is going to come with some questions on him. To bad really, he looked extremely focused in Portland this season for sure. Time will tell on the knee.

 

Persson has finally shown the willingness to use his size this season. Was it the transition to the North American game that had him blossoming late? Don't know, I'm sure it played some role, but he wasn't drafted for his defensive play, but as a pure PMD.

Poor draft selection in the 1st round by Regier in my opinion. But it was a crap shoot. Will he see defensive time on the Buffalo blueline next season? Not likely, he needs another season in the AHL to find an adjustment on whether or not he can become a 5-6 Defenseman, right now, he's not showing it even with the much improved play.

 

Biega is only 5' 11" but has played this season in Portland with a very physical game. I like this kid. He plays with a real nasty streak, especially in his own zone. My only knock on him in the games I've watched in Portland (over 35 games this season so far) is that he takes games off in my eyes. Just my opinion, but he needs to bring that physical play every night.

Another season in the AHL should tell us what we have with him, the jury's still out, atleast for me as of right now.

 

Crawford is the one Sabres prospect currently in Portland that I see with genuine 3-4 Defenseman skills. This kid is just steady. He is a rock back there on the blueline and likes to jump in offensively "ONLY" when he knows he can get away with it, and it's payed off for him. I watched several games this season where I just saw this kid make very smart decisions on the pinch.

I would like his defensive game to improve, he needs to use his size and get physical in his own zone, especially infront of the net.

He has Butler's Disease (the lack of physical play to clear the crease).

He will push this training camp, but he needs another season in the AHL.

 

As far as Junior talent, for as talented as McNabb is, there is no way he makes the Sabres out of Juniors, he just isn't ready.

He'll need a couple of seasons in the AHL in order to transition to the pro's.

 

That's just my take on what I've seen with the Portland talent and what little I've caught of McNabb. I haven't seen Pysyk in a full game at all, so I have no opinion on him right now.

[shrader]

I would add a couple points here. First, because of the extended rfa rules for players with little or no NHL playing time, we really have these guys as indentured servants and can afford to wait. Darcy's point is accurate, but also a huge financial benefit to a team with an internal cap.

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. There is no meaningful restriction on the number of games played that determines a player's RFA status. Regardless of their games played, the player can't become an UFA until he's either played 7 seasons of pro hockey (AHL/NHL) or is 27 years old. So Mark Mancari's still as restricted this offseason as Drew Stafford is.

[korab rules]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. There is no meaningful restriction on the number of games played that determines a player's RFA status. Regardless of their games played, the player can't become an UFA until he's either played 7 seasons of pro hockey (AHL/NHL) or is 27 years old. So Mark Mancari's still as restricted this offseason as Drew Stafford is.

:doh:

 

I should really stop talking about RFA rules.

[LGR4GM]

I think the young guys on D will mature with time and we should let them keep developing (i.e. Myers, Weber, Sekera, Butler). I do think we could upgrade on the vets though. I like Leopold. I think we could upgrade over Monty and Morrisonn. Although, looking at the UFA market, I don't see much of an improvement out there available that fits the criteria they publicly put forth in improving for coming years. Most are on the down hill side or will hit the down hill slope very shortly. I'm not sure how much of a lasting impact you can have when you're almost in the mid-30's for many of them (with the exception of Lidstrom). But, I could be wrong.

UFA Defense that could help this team in the future. These are players whose current contract ends on July 1: Christian Erhoff 28yrs old with 10g, 28a this season. Kaberle 33yrs old, 3g, 36a. Lidstrom 41, 13g, 38a(will stay with detroit). Bieksa 30, 6g, 13a +26. McCabe 36, 5g, 18a. Jovanovski 35, 5g, 9a. Pitkanen 28, 2g 26a.

This list only includes UFA, with either good production this year or in the recent past. They are mostly in there thirties with a couple of exceptions. I did not include RFA's like Weber or Yandle as trading for them is more difficult and hazardous than signing a UFA. If we picked up one of the above mentioned players such as Erhoff I think it would strengthen our blueline immensely. Outside of these players there are a lot of UFA defensemen that I did not include because alot of the UFA's are not great this year. Lidstrom was included because he fits the description of good UFA defensemen and I have major doubts any team outside of Detroit would sign him. (ages of players is of July 1, 2011) If someone wants to compile good RFA defensemen go for it because the sabres need improvement with veteran leadership if they want to win a cup.

[BuffaloSoldier2010]

KTN you go to UB?

[X. Benedict]

 

 

Crawford is the one Sabres prospect currently in Portland that I see with genuine 3-4 Defenseman skills. This kid is just steady. He is a rock back there on the blueline and likes to jump in offensively "ONLY" when he knows he can get away with it, and it's payed off for him. I watched several games this season where I just saw this kid make very smart decisions on the pinch.

 

 

good post all....I'll make a point of taking a closer look at Crawford.

[Calvin]

UFA Defense that could help this team in the future. These are players whose current contract ends on July 1: Christian Erhoff 28yrs old with 10g, 28a this season. Kaberle 33yrs old, 3g, 36a. Lidstrom 41, 13g, 38a(will stay with detroit). Bieksa 30, 6g, 13a +26. McCabe 36, 5g, 18a. Jovanovski 35, 5g, 9a. Pitkanen 28, 2g 26a.

This list only includes UFA, with either good production this year or in the recent past. They are mostly in there thirties with a couple of exceptions. I did not include RFA's like Weber or Yandle as trading for them is more difficult and hazardous than signing a UFA. If we picked up one of the above mentioned players such as Erhoff I think it would strengthen our blueline immensely. Outside of these players there are a lot of UFA defensemen that I did not include because alot of the UFA's are not great this year. Lidstrom was included because he fits the description of good UFA defensemen and I have major doubts any team outside of Detroit would sign him. (ages of players is of July 1, 2011) If someone wants to compile good RFA defensemen go for it because the sabres need improvement with veteran leadership if they want to win a cup.

the career +/- numbers for the Dmen in your list would be pretty important if you were making a determination on who can fit into the role of shutdown Dman to pair up with Myers.

[LGR4GM]

KTN you go to UB?

Yes. I will look up the career +- numbers for the def I suggested when I have some time a little late.

[LGR4GM]

the career +/- numbers for the Dmen in your list would be pretty important if you were making a determination on who can fit into the role of shutdown Dman to pair up with Myers.

Career +/-: Pitkanen +3, jovanowski -66, McCabe +34, Bieksa +6, Kaberle +27, Lidstrom +431, Erhoff +66