Probert's Brain

[notwoz]

The New York Times reports that after examining Bob Probert’s brain tissue, researchers at Boston University said this week they found the same degenerative disease, chronic traumatic encephalopathy, whose presence in more than 20 deceased professional football players has prompted the National Football League to change some rules and policies in an effort to limit dangerous head impacts

Now Probert was not the average player — he reveled in extremes both on and off the ice, primarily in fighting, drinking heavily and embracing other physical risks, like drug use. Nonetheless, the story gives one pause, especially when you look at the expression of the boy in the photo.

 

,

 

NY Times story

[notwoz]

And if you're curious, here are some example's of Probert's contribution to the sport:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/03/sports/hockey/20110303-fighter-videos.html?ref=hockey

[Weave]

Not surprising. I'd bet if they checked the noggins of all of the big fighters of the last 20 years they'd find similar damage in all of them. The 'roid era created some behemoths that were built to inflict damage. Even the king damage inflictor wasn't immune to getting hurt in the long run.

[Bmwolf21]

I find his wife's comments curious:

 

“In my heart of hearts, I don’t believe fighting is what did this to Bob,” she said. “It was hockey — all the checking and hits, things like that.”

 

Interesting. Denial?

[notwoz]

I find his wife's comments curious:

 

“In my heart of hearts, I don’t believe fighting is what did this to Bob,” she said. “It was hockey — all the checking and hits, things like that.”

 

Interesting. Denial?

 

 

Very curious, as you say. Hits,checks, fights, whiskey, cocaine, all of the above?

[Bmwolf21]

Very curious, as you say. Hits,checks, fights, whiskey, cocaine, all of the above?

Probably all of the above, but I'd put "hockey" last on that list. If I had to put them in order, I'd probably go fights, cocaine, whiskey, hits/checks. I just don't see how the damage from 246 fights in the NHL (and God knows how many others in the minors, juniors, bars...) wouldn't be the first thing you'd suspect as the cause of brain damage.

[notwoz]

By the way, he was 45 when he died. That's not what I would call a ripe old age.

[Bmwolf21]

By the way, he was 45 when he died. That's not what I would call a ripe old age.

Exactly.

 

Hard living, hard line of work, died young. Not a surprise there.

[korab rules]

By the way, he was 45 when he died. That's not what I would call a ripe old age.

He died of a heart attack, not a cerebral aneurism or anything even casually related to hockey or fighting. Not to say it wouldn't have eventually, but in this case it looks like drugs, booze and too many steaks took him down.

[notwoz]

He died of a heart attack, not a cerebral aneurism or anything even casually related to hockey or fighting. Not to say it wouldn't have eventually, but in this case it looks like drugs, booze and too many steaks took him down.

 

 

You're correct. He died of heart failure.

According to the story, his widow said, "In my heart of hearts, I don’t believe fighting is what did this to Bob. It was hockey — all the checking and hits, things like that.”

 

However, what she doesn't recognize is that most hockey players don't die at age 45, and most hockey players don't make a career out of using their fists. I'm wondering about the "things like that." I can't help but think that the 246 fights he was in helped to hasten his demise. And I'm sure the whiskey and cocaine didn't help matters.

[rickshaw]

Wow, you just don't see fights that last that long anymore.

 

I am sure getting punched in the head isn't a good thing, but I'd imagine the cocaine is the biggest contributor. Those fights look great but so many punches don't connect. The drugs, the booze and hockey contributed imo. Fighting is part of it, but not as big as the drugs. No way.

[Two or less]

More on this, i posted this also in "around the league".

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/concussions/probert-suffered-from-degenerative-brain-disease-scientists-find/article1927734/

[Bmwolf21]

Wow, you just don't see fights that last that long anymore.

 

I am sure getting punched in the head isn't a good thing, but I'd imagine the cocaine is the biggest contributor. Those fights look great but so many punches don't connect. The drugs, the booze and hockey contributed imo. Fighting is part of it, but not as big as the drugs. No way.

As a cause in his death? Absolutely the drugs, alcohol and partying were worse. My comment about the wife being in denial was about how fighting was probably the primary cause of his degenerative brain disease and trauma, and not "hockey — all the checking and hits, things like that."

[darksabre]

It was the drugs and booze. Boxers get punched in the head all the time and there aren't hundreds of invalids walking around because of it. Sure, fighting probably didn't help any, but filling yourself with narcotics is what kills you at 45 when you were an athlete for most of your life.

[Kristian]

You're correct. He died of heart failure.

According to the story, his widow said, "In my heart of hearts, I don’t believe fighting is what did this to Bob. It was hockey — all the checking and hits, things like that.”

 

However, what she doesn't recognize is that most hockey players don't die at age 45, and most hockey players don't make a career out of using their fists. I'm wondering about the "things like that." I can't help but think that the 246 fights he was in helped to hasten his demise. And I'm sure the whiskey and cocaine didn't help matters.

 

I'm no doctor, but I would think getting hammered over the head repeatedly, would probably result in a different cause of death than a heart attack?

 

Roids, drugs and booze on the other hand, are usually prime suspects when it comes to heart failure.

 

Also, you see guys like Lindros, LaFontaine, and Keith Primeau all retire due to head injuries NOT caused by fighting, but rather just plain getting hit in the head. Heck, Patty ran into Mike Keane, and that was it for him.

 

Well, I suppose technically Lindros didn't retire due to concussions, but he was never the same player again, and if he'd had any brains at all, he would've called it a day after Stevens leveled him.

 

I would like to see how many of the good open-ice hitters in this league end up with mild concussions just by leveling someone else. Prepared or not, it's still a quite significant impact. Sustaining perhaps 5-10 mild concussions throughout a career, and playing through them, surely can't be good for your health, so maybe she has a point when she says hockey's at fault?

[DR HOLLIDAY]

They saved Hitlers brain...........Anyone remember that stupid movie?

 

Who would win a fight Hitlers brain or Proberts brain?

[wonderbread]

They saved Hitlers brain...........Anyone remember that stupid movie?

 

Who would win a fight Hitlers brain or Proberts brain?

Ditka's brain would beat them both hands down.

[Taro T]

Ditka's brain would beat them both hands down.

Yeah, but Chuck Norris' brain could take all 3 plus the collective brains of the '79 Steelers and still have enough left over to take on all of 'Cane Nation' (the last one not being all that impressive as at last count there were all 27 'hard core' Candy Cane fans). ;)

[Weave]

It was the drugs and booze. Boxers get punched in the head all the time and there aren't hundreds of invalids walking around because of it. Sure, fighting probably didn't help any, but filling yourself with narcotics is what kills you at 45 when you were an athlete for most of your life.

 

Invalid might be a strong word but there are lots of retired boxers walking around with the after affects of a life of getting hit in the head repeatedly. Muhammed Ali's condition is widely assumed to be at least partially the result of his career choice. Didn't the article in the OP mention that the study included boxers as well as NFL players?

 

Probert likely had his heart attack because of the drugs and booze. His brain injury probably isn't directly related to his death but it was obviously starting to negatively affect his quality of life.

 

ETA- after re-reading the article I see that there is no reference to boxers in that BU study. Hmmm, where did I think I saw something about boxers with the same condition?

[X. Benedict]

The New York Times reports that after examining Bob Probert’s brain tissue, researchers at Boston University said this week they found the same degenerative disease, chronic traumatic encephalopathy, whose presence in more than 20 deceased professional football players has prompted the National Football League to change some rules and policies in an effort to limit dangerous head impacts

Now Probert was not the average player — he reveled in extremes both on and off the ice, primarily in fighting, drinking heavily and embracing other physical risks, like drug use. Nonetheless, the story gives one pause, especially when you look at the expression of the boy in the photo.

 

,

 

NY Times story

 

Funny. I was just talking with someone about Probert the other day. And we wondered aloud if there is anyone in the game today like Probert. I would say not even close. The guy could score, but he loved to fight. We thought he needed to fight. There was something sociopathic about him. And boy could he do both.

[notwoz]

Invalid might be a strong word but there are lots of retired boxers walking around with the after affects of a life of getting hit in the head repeatedly. Muhammed Ali's condition is widely assumed to be at least partially the result of his career choice. Didn't the article in the OP mention that the study included boxers as well as NFL players?

 

Probert likely had his heart attack because of the drugs and booze. His brain injury probably isn't directly related to his death but it was obviously starting to negatively affect his quality of life.

 

ETA- after re-reading the article I see that there is no reference to boxers in that BU study. Hmmm, where did I think I saw something about boxers with the same condition?

 

 

While this story focuses on hockey players, this Boston University research department is best known for its studies on football players. It has looked at athletes from other sports, including hockey and boxing, and more recently, the brains of U.S. soldiers reporting problems because of battlefield trauma, such as the impact from bomb blasts.

 

Interestingly, Massachusetts boxer Micky Ward recently said he will donate his brain to BU for research when he dies. Ward's career is the basis for the film "The Fighter."

[Bmwolf21]

While this story focuses on hockey players, this Boston University research department is best known for its studies on football players. It has looked at athletes from other sports, including hockey and boxing, and more recently, the brains of U.S. soldiers reporting problems because of battlefield trauma, such as the impact from bomb blasts.

 

Interestingly, Massachusetts boxer Micky Ward recently said he will donate his brain to BU for research when he dies. Ward's career is the basis for the film "The Fighter."

The articles I've found online have alluded to the fact that not a lot of boxers have donated their brains to determine whether they had CTE. The current test is only administrable after death, so without the brains they can only guess.

[shrader]

I'm no doctor, but I would think getting hammered over the head repeatedly, would probably result in a different cause of death than a heart attack?

 

Roids, drugs and booze on the other hand, are usually prime suspects when it comes to heart failure.

 

Also, you see guys like Lindros, LaFontaine, and Keith Primeau all retire due to head injuries NOT caused by fighting, but rather just plain getting hit in the head. Heck, Patty ran into Mike Keane, and that was it for him.

 

Well, I suppose technically Lindros didn't retire due to concussions, but he was never the same player again, and if he'd had any brains at all, he would've called it a day after Stevens leveled him.

 

I would like to see how many of the good open-ice hitters in this league end up with mild concussions just by leveling someone else. Prepared or not, it's still a quite significant impact. Sustaining perhaps 5-10 mild concussions throughout a career, and playing through them, surely can't be good for your health, so maybe she has a point when she says hockey's at fault?

 

A lot of the research points towards some sort of additive effect of the constant shock to the head. We're not even talking about actual concussions here, but a series of 5-10 thought to be uneventful collisions that may in fact cause just as much damage as one single Ulf Samuelsson elbow. If they can ever make that connection, there will be no doubt that the game itself can (for everyone reading, please not the difference between the words "can" and "will") lead to this kind of deterioration of the brain.

 

As for the comments about his death being more about the drug use than the head injuries. Isn't it possible that having those kind of brain issues could make you far more likely to turn to those questionable lifestyles and decisions? Yeah, you can never prove it, but it does have to make you wonder.

[Weave]

A lot of the research points towards some sort of additive effect of the constant shock to the head. We're not even talking about actual concussions here, but a series of 5-10 thought to be uneventful collisions that may in fact cause just as much damage as one single Ulf Samuelsson elbow. If they can ever make that connection, there will be no doubt that the game itself can (for everyone reading, please not the difference between the words "can" and "will") lead to this kind of deterioration of the brain.

 

As for the comments about his death being more about the drug use than the head injuries. Isn't it possible that having those kind of brain issues could make you far more likely to turn to those questionable lifestyles and decisions? Yeah, you can never prove it, but it does have to make you wonder.

 

I have no idea if brain injuries can lead to poor life decisions but in Probert's case it was pretty well documented that he was making risky lifestyle choices at a very young age. Dude was a party animal right from the very start of adulthood. And he never really grew out of it. Most of us get past that at some point.

[shrader]

I have no idea if brain injuries can lead to poor life decisions but in Probert's case it was pretty well documented that he was making risky lifestyle choices at a very young age. Dude was a party animal right from the very start of adulthood. And he never really grew out of it. Most of us get past that at some point.

 

Do most get past it because their brain is in normal shape? Just a thought.