korab rules Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 Don't have time to track the whole list down, but 1 guy that immediately springs to mind is the guy your are discussing. (And I don't mean Adam. ;) ) Ennis and Gerbe come to mind. oops, I see I am late to the show here. Shrader, I will defer to you on Gerbe, but he is listed as a center at BC in multiple places.
X. Benedict Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 intriguing point. would the league ever look at pushing out the age of eligibility? the way it works now, your success in the draft seems equally attributable to due diligence/talent evaluation and good (dumb?) luck. I think it should be changed players that turn 20 the year of the draft. (19 and 20 y.o's) Essentially, making draft eligibility closer to the last year of Junior eligibility. This makes so much more sense for NCAA players and Europeans too.
LabattBlue Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 They had 3 3rd round picks this past year, which probably balances out that lack of a 2nd round pick. One of those was used on center Kevin Sundher. Who knows what they would have taken if they had a 2nd, but there you go, a center in the system from the same portion of that draft. But anyway, while we're suddenly crapping all over the draft results, I noticed this little trend: 2008 first 3 picks: Myers, Ennis, Adam 2009 first 3 picks: Kassian, McNabb, Foligno That '09 group gets a lot of talk. Hopefully they live up to the 2008 trio. And if they do, hopefully the '10 trio of Pysyk, Gauthier-Leduc, and Sundher keeps that going. That right there would be a great organizational building block, be it through actual player development or trades. Blue, Gerbe didn't "almost exclusively" play wing at BC. He did exclusively play wing. I didn't include him when I listed those drafted centers earlier. This makes me realize another potential change in the numbers I counted. Some of the listed positions may have been changed since the time of the draft. It also didn't include Tim Kennedy, who we didn't actually draft, but may as well have. I'm not crapping over the draft results in terms of recent quality, just the neglect of scoring centers and the over abundance of defenseman, which will lead to some of these blueliners not being offered contracts because there is no room at the AHL level or wasting away in the AHL somewhere down the road because there is no room on the big club. While I am on my soapbox, it might be time to draft another goalie in the early rounds. You follow college hockey much more than me. Do Knapp, Eno or Eidsness have any NHL potential?
LabattBlue Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 Another thing to consider when looking at center depth(in addition to Connolly moving on)... Roy is only under contract for two more seasons and will also be looking for a lot more than the 4 mil avg salary he has today.
Robviously Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 They had 3 3rd round picks this past year, which probably balances out that lack of a 2nd round pick. One of those was used on center Kevin Sundher. Who knows what they would have taken if they had a 2nd, but there you go, a center in the system from the same portion of that draft. But anyway, while we're suddenly crapping all over the draft results, I noticed this little trend: 2008 first 3 picks: Myers, Ennis, Adam 2009 first 3 picks: Kassian, McNabb, Foligno That '09 group gets a lot of talk. Hopefully they live up to the 2008 trio. And if they do, hopefully the '10 trio of Pysyk, Gauthier-Leduc, and Sundher keeps that going. That right there would be a great organizational building block, be it through actual player development or trades. They've definitely been drafting better the last few years. I've made this point a couple times myself. I don't think it's a coincidence that they're focusing on North Americans after being burned so many times by Europeans. I also like the increased emphasis on size. (If we'd had this mindset 10 years ago, we wouldn't have passed on Brooks Orpik to take Artem Kruikov. Imagine that.) You might as well add Matt Mackenzie (the 3rd of the three 3rd round picks) to the 2010 draft list with Pysyk, Gauthier-Leduc, and Sundher. He's not a very flashy defenseman but he seems to have as good as shot at making it as Gauthier-Leduc and Sundher. We also drafted Riley Boychuk in the 7th round and I hope we sign him this summer. Not a ton of upside but he's basically a 6'5" thug and the second most feared player in our system after Kassian. He'd be a perfect 4th liner down the road.
LGR4GM Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 "I know I don't want to be just sitting back and waiting for something to happen and just kind of look around and seem nervous in a new surrounding. Now it's step to the forefront," said Boyes, who admires coach Lindy Ruff's offensive system. "It's definitely a lot more my style than it was in St. Louis. That's good. If guys have skill and talent, let them use them." - Brad Boyes the deadline Maybe Boyes is better but St. Louis just wasnt his style of play? Its interesting to consider but tonight will give some indication.
korab rules Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 They had 3 3rd round picks this past year, which probably balances out that lack of a 2nd round pick. One of those was used on center Kevin Sundher. Who knows what they would have taken if they had a 2nd, but there you go, a center in the system from the same portion of that draft. But anyway, while we're suddenly crapping all over the draft results, I noticed this little trend: 2008 first 3 picks: Myers, Ennis, Adam 2009 first 3 picks: Kassian, McNabb, Foligno That '09 group gets a lot of talk. Hopefully they live up to the 2008 trio. And if they do, hopefully the '10 trio of Pysyk, Gauthier-Leduc, and Sundher keeps that going. That right there would be a great organizational building block, be it through actual player development or trades. Blue, Gerbe didn't "almost exclusively" play wing at BC. He did exclusively play wing. I didn't include him when I listed those drafted centers earlier. This makes me realize another potential change in the numbers I counted. Some of the listed positions may have been changed since the time of the draft. It also didn't include Tim Kennedy, who we didn't actually draft, but may as well have. That is 5 forwards out of the first 6 picks in those two drafts. Darcy must have had heart palpitations. He made up for it by using another first and 3 out of his first four picks on D in 2010.
LabattBlue Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 "I know I don't want to be just sitting back and waiting for something to happen and just kind of look around and seem nervous in a new surrounding. Now it's step to the forefront," said Boyes, who admires coach Lindy Ruff's offensive system. "It's definitely a lot more my style than it was in St. Louis. That's good. If guys have skill and talent, let them use them." - Brad Boyes the deadline Maybe Boyes is better but St. Louis just wasnt his style of play? Its interesting to consider but tonight will give some indication. Lindy Ruff's offensive system? :o Offensive in that your 3rd line consists of Niedermayer and Grier? I guess that would be considered offensive? ;)
shrader Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 Ennis and Gerbe come to mind. oops, I see I am late to the show here. Shrader, I will defer to you on Gerbe, but he is listed as a center at BC in multiple places. The Gerbe thing is one that I've always found curious. If he was playing center at any point, he was probably 14 or 15 at the time. I remember seeing him skating on a line centered by Kessel with the US developmental team right before he went to BC. Then when he was there, he was centered by Brian Boyle for his 1st two years, then someone else in their national championship year. It really makes me wonder how some of these prospect sites work (or don't work). I'm not crapping over the draft results in terms of recent quality, just the neglect of scoring centers and the over abundance of defenseman, which will lead to some of these bluelines not being offered contracts because there is no room at the AHL level or wasting away in the AHL somewhere down the road because there is no room on the big club. This is something I've been thinking about with the new ownership and their promise to spend more on non-capped areas like player development. I remember a few people questioning what exactly a player development coach would be and how that differs from someone already on staff (the AHL staff). I wonder if they might consider taking on an ECHL affiliation. That immediately takes care of the possibility of players going unsigned because there is no space. It also gives a nice feeder system to Portland when the inevitable injuries and callups hit. While I am on my soapbox, it might be time to draft another goalie in the early rounds. You follow college hockey much more than me. Do Knapp, Eno or Eidsness have any NHL potential? Unfortunately, I haven't been able to pay as much attention this year. Looking over the stats, I'm kind of curious what happened with Eidsness. He had been a workhorse goalie each year at NoDak (we're talking Miller-like here), but this year he's only played 6 games. I don't know if there was an injury there or something. He's a junior, and if he is coming off an injury, he would probably finish out his senior year before they move on him. Knapp's numbers have dropped a bit this year, but they're still very strong. Miami's not the team they were last year, so that is understandable. He's been splitting time in net again this year as they've got two very good goalies. I get the feeling he'll be signed this offseason, especially if they do bump Enroth up to the big time. Eno was a project 7th round pick. I had heard very good things about him at the time (granted they were from a rep from his junior league). It just hasn't worked out. He had some injury issues and he was also stuck with a very bad team in Bowling Green. You won't see his name again after this year.
X. Benedict Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 Lindy Ruff's offensive system? :o Offensive in that your 3rd line consists of Niedermayer and Grier? I guess that would be considered offensive? ;) Greir's been hot. :lol:
LGR4GM Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 Lindy Ruff's offensive system? :o Offensive in that your 3rd line consists of Niedermayer and Grier? I guess that would be considered offensive? ;) I raised my eyebrow too when boyes said that but who knows maybe the system will work for him.
carpandean Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 Lindy Ruff's offensive system? :o Offensive in that your 3rd line consists of Niedermayer and Grier? I guess that would be considered offensive? ;) Anyone remember the Blues' game? Lindy's system is offensive compared to theirs. They bored you to sleep, then capitalized on a few breaks. I suppose that it's like saying you're looking forward to dating a nerdy bookworm because you appreciate her partying side after being in a long relationship with a nun.
X. Benedict Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 Anyone remember the Blues' game? Lindy's system is offensive compared to theirs. They bored you to sleep, then capitalized on a few breaks. I suppose that it's like saying you're looking forward to dating a nerdy bookworm because you appreciate her partying side after being in a long relationship with a nun. I never thought of it that way before.
Taro T Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 I think it should be changed players that turn 20 the year of the draft. (19 and 20 y.o's) Essentially, making draft eligibility closer to the last year of Junior eligibility. This makes so much more sense for NCAA players and Europeans too. I'd like to see that as well but don't know how they'd get there. They went to the 18 year old draft after Linesman challenged the older draft age. I'm sure they'd have legal challenges if any future CBA including an older draft age didn't include a 'hardship' waiver; and considering how the primary feeder systems are set up where drafted players can still play in them, I expect it'd be a hard sell to get the rule changed w/out having a couple hundred 18 year olds requesting inclusion in the draft via the waiver.
shrader Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 I'd like to see that as well but don't know how they'd get there. They went to the 18 year old draft after Linesman challenged the older draft age. I'm sure they'd have legal challenges if any future CBA including an older draft age didn't include a 'hardship' waiver; and considering how the primary feeder systems are set up where drafted players can still play in them, I expect it'd be a hard sell to get the rule changed w/out having a couple hundred 18 year olds requesting inclusion in the draft via the waiver. Didn't the NBA get shut down by the courts a few years back when they tried to push back their age limit a bit? The system is what it is. They'll never have a chance to push it bac
X. Benedict Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 I'd like to see that as well but don't know how they'd get there. They went to the 18 year old draft after Linesman challenged the older draft age. I'm sure they'd have legal challenges if any future CBA including an older draft age didn't include a 'hardship' waiver; and considering how the primary feeder systems are set up where drafted players can still play in them, I expect it'd be a hard sell to get the rule changed w/out having a couple hundred 18 year olds requesting inclusion in the draft via the waiver. I think it should be the case that if you sign up for the draft, you are waiving any additional years of Junior eligibility. So for most 18 year olds, they are not going to play right away in the NHL, so it is a bad decision: financially and otherwise.
Taro T Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 I think it should be the case that if you sign up for the draft, you are waiving any additional years of Junior eligibility. So for most 18 year olds, they are not going to play right away in the NHL, so it is a bad decision: financially and otherwise. That would be an interesting way of running it. Basically doing it like the NFL & NCAA work their system. I think you'd see too much fight back from the Canadian juniors to ever pull it off. You'd probably have resistance from the NHLPA as well. On an unrelated note, I was listening to Rayzor on GR this afternoon. He was saying that the Sabres NOT making any player out the door for draft picks trade was very well received in the dressing room. (Not terribly surprising news at that.) In addition to the very valid reasons you gave for them not dumping TC, I wonder how much (if any) you figure that fit into the thinking on keeping TC. My guess is the 'we're going to be the best destination in the NHL' stuff didn't figure in too much, but it was an interesting take. He went so far as to say 1 unnamed player actually thanked Darcy for not trading him away. I'd actually think that if anything it has them 'walking the walk' on Pegula's claims that he will not be reluctant to spend money if it will (could?) make the team better. Had the previous regime still been in place, a rostered player almost definitely would have hit the road to make room for Boyes' salary.
EZBills7 Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 For what it's worth, here's how Boyes' stats in STL match up with the top Sabre forwards from the past 4 years. For each year, I only included players who finished in the top 90 in total points among forwards (which essentially makes them a top line forward on the season when you factor in 3 first line forwards x 30 teams). Of course one drawback is not accounting for injuries, but a player's health is also a valuable asset. 2007-08 18th: Roy 81 points (also 20th in goals with 32) 19th: Pominville 80 points 45th: Boyes (STL) 65 points (also 6th in goals with 43) 50th: Vanek 64 points (also 13th in goals with 36) 2008-09 34th: Boyes (STL) 72 points (also 21st in goals with 33) 38th: Roy 70 points 46th: Pominville 66 points 50th: Vanek 64 points (also 8th in goals with 40) 2009-10 31st: Roy 69 points 42nd: Connolly 65 points 48th: Pominville 62 points 75th: Vanek 53 points [132nd: Boyes (STL) 42 points] 2010-11 to date 25th: Vanek 52 points (also 27th in goals with 23) 75th: Boyes (STL) 41 points; in 2011, he has 22 points in 25 games Also, Stafford is 25th in goals with 24 in just 43 games While Boyes was an above average first line scorer in the first two seasons listed, the $4 million dollar question is how to view Boyes' weak season last year in which he produced the stats of a mediocre 2nd liner. When you look at his numbers this year, however, he is producing as a low end first liner. Since the new year, his clip of almost a point a game is similar to Vanek's per-game totals of the course of the season. In other words, over the past 2 months, Boyes has produced as an above average #1 forward. Here's hoping the past two months are a return to his old form and not a flash in the pan.
LGB Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 Hope springs eternal and at 28, there hopefully is a lot of gas in the tank and the change in scenery/closer to family will help.
apuszczalowski Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 This seems more likely to end up as more of a Torres/Moore 2.0 type deal. I thought the purse strings were pened? Yet Darcy spends the deadline the same way he does every year, except a little less work cause he didn't have to dump salary to match what he brought in
Bmwolf21 Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 Too each his own - In my view he didn't have the hand speed that Ennis has, but he could stickhandle through three guys in a telephone booth. Try enough of those moves against NHL players and eventually you are going to cough up the puck. And he did. Usually near the blue line. Resulting in an odd man rush in the other direction. :death: Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Max had some very very intermittent success with stickhandling through guys, but he went to well way too many times and lost the puck to a defenseman. Eventually the opposition realized that if they forced him outside he would cough the puck up on his own, and his effectiveness was pretty much negated. Korab, while I respect your hockey views as well as the awesome power of your avatar, I think you are underestimating Ennis a bit here. I have seen him lay out a surprising number of respectable hits and play a surprisingly physical forechecking game. Now, physics being what it is, he's never going to be a really powerful forechecker, and he's always going to lose battles with defensemen that come down to size, but he's not a pushover either. I also think he is both fast and quick, and probably the fastest guy on the team. What I would really like to see out of Ennis is more finish and more pucks to the net. But he's in his first NHL season (and FWIW has been in the top 5 rookie scorers all year). In any event I think my bottom line on him is pretty close to yours -- i.e. he's a talented young player who should only be traded if there is a really good player coming back. However, I would trade Adam or Foligno before I would trade Ennis. Good post.
X. Benedict Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 This seems more likely to end up as more of a Torres/Moore 2.0 type deal. I thought the purse strings were pened? Yet Darcy spends the deadline the same way he does every year, except a little less work cause he didn't have to dump salary to match what he brought in Nah...those guys were purely rental. This is for the term of his contact.
X. Benedict Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 That would be an interesting way of running it. Basically doing it like the NFL & NCAA work their system. I think you'd see too much fight back from the Canadian juniors to ever pull it off. You'd probably have resistance from the NHLPA as well. On an unrelated note, I was listening to Rayzor on GR this afternoon. He was saying that the Sabres NOT making any player out the door for draft picks trade was very well received in the dressing room. (Not terribly surprising news at that.) In addition to the very valid reasons you gave for them not dumping TC, I wonder how much (if any) you figure that fit into the thinking on keeping TC. My guess is the 'we're going to be the best destination in the NHL' stuff didn't figure in too much, but it was an interesting take. He went so far as to say 1 unnamed player actually thanked Darcy for not trading him away. I'd actually think that if anything it has them 'walking the walk' on Pegula's claims that he will not be reluctant to spend money if it will (could?) make the team better. Had the previous regime still been in place, a rostered player almost definitely would have hit the road to make room for Boyes' salary. I agree with all of this. I found myself imagining this team with a good center last night...with Roy back, they would have three solid lines.
Calvin Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 no comparisons between Boyes' first game and Bernier's first game yet? i'm surprised!
Derrico Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 no comparisons between Boyes' first game and Bernier's first game yet? i'm surprised! Well if Bucky can change his tune then maybe some posters can too. This really is a new chapter in Sabres History.
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