red Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 My link So....my thoughts for the past 4 seasons are finally coming to light. Golisano gutted the scouting department to save pennies, not because of some technological advance in scouting. Quote: ""These scouts are traveling all over the world. All these expenses, could they accomplish a lot more staying in one place with the use of video?" the owner said. "And they believe they can. If somebody interprets that as not being progressive and being regressive, that's too bad. But we think we're far more efficient and have a much better scouting organization than we did three years ago." Sounds like an understandable plan to run, say, a private business. But not a good plan to win a Stanley Cup with. And if you're a small market team that is constantly crying about the salary cap, you're bread and butter IS the draft, so you had better not be pinching pennies in that area. That being said, would there be any chance that we could get even 1 of these guys back with new ownership: 1.) Director of Pro Scouting Terry Martin (Colorado) 2.) Director of Amateur Scouting Jim Benning (now in Boston) 3.) Assistant general Manager Larry Carriere (Montreal) left in 2004 Thoughts? Oh, and I'm for keeping Ruff as head coach, firing Regier, and hiring Rick Dudley as GM.
red Posted February 4, 2011 Author Report Posted February 4, 2011 Sorry, guys. I'm still trying to figure out the link thing. :blink: The article is from www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/elliotfriedman It's also posted on SabreSpace.
deluca67 Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 They should just buy a NHL draft guide. If it's a guy sitting in the stands or hours of tape on a player it all comes down to the guy who makes the final decision on how to use the draft pick. Which process they use, IMO, is pointless until they change the person making the final decision.
red Posted February 4, 2011 Author Report Posted February 4, 2011 They should just buy a NHL draft guide. If it's a guy sitting in the stands or hours of tape on a player it all comes down to the guy who makes the final decision on how to use the draft pick. Which process they use, IMO, is pointless until they change the person making the final decision. It's the same worn out Tom Modrak defense for the Bills. Bottom line: the person/ people making any decision have to get their scouting information from somebody. That somebody is trusting their scouts (or televisions, in the Golisano-owned Sabres era) to present informed decisions. Then the trigger pullers are using that information to make what they think is an informed decision. As with Tom Modrak, if the trigger keeps missing on hitting a target, its time to replace the scouts. In the Sabres case, the very word progress should mean improvement where it counts (on the ice)- not saving money.
Weave Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 Initially I too was very critical of the Sabres change to video scouting. Not so much anymore. If you look at the number of people in the Sabres scouting staff (they are listed on the Sabres website) and compare them to how many people other teams have in their scouting departments I think you will find that there are many teams with a scouting staff as small as Buffalo's. In fact, Detroit's scouting staff is only 2 people larger than Buffalo's staff. And Buffalo employs a number of analysts that aren't on Detroit's staff. I don't think that the size of Buffalo's scouting dept is the issue. Who is employed as scouts though.......
deluca67 Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 Initially I too was very critical of the Sabres change to video scouting. Not so much anymore. If you look at the number of people in the Sabres scouting staff (they are listed on the Sabres website) and compare them to how many people other teams have in their scouting departments I think you will find that there are many teams with a scouting staff as small as Buffalo's. In fact, Detroit's scouting staff is only 2 people larger than Buffalo's staff. And Buffalo employs a number of analysts that aren't on Detroit's staff. I don't think that the size of Buffalo's scouting dept is the issue. Who is employed as scouts though....... I wonder what criteria scouts are given before they hit the road.
inkman Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 Just playing devils advocate...they did draft Myers, Ennis, Kassian, Foligno, Weber, Sekera and some other promising prospects with this system. I can't recall (too lazy too look it up), were they using "video" scouting when they drafted Zagrapran, Kryukov, Persson.
red Posted February 4, 2011 Author Report Posted February 4, 2011 Just playing devils advocate...they did draft Myers, Ennis, Kassian, Foligno, Weber, Sekera and some other promising prospects with this system. I can't recall (too lazy too look it up), were they using "video" scouting when they drafted Zagrapran, Kryukov, Persson. Granted- but Myers is having a terrible sophomore season. Does he bounce back? Probably. Ennis I really like. Foligno has yet to play. Kassian is interesting to me. I hope he produces. Problem is, he seems to have no discipline. And he is another unproven. Weber I'm not so sure about. Sekera, IMO, is a bust.
Lanny Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 Sekera, IMO, is a bust. I don't consider a third round pick who is a top 4 Dman bust.
deluca67 Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 Granted- but Myers is having a terrible sophomore season. Does he bounce back? Probably. Ennis I really like. Foligno has yet to play. Kassian is interesting to me. I hope he produces. Problem is, he seems to have no discipline. And he is another unproven. Weber I'm not so sure about. Sekera, IMO, is a bust. Probably? If a new head coach is in place? I would say it's more than likely.
PromoTheRobot Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 I don't think the video scouting has been a problem in the last few years. We seem to find players okay. PTR
inkman Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 Probably? If a new head coach is in place? I would say it's more than likely. Kids got WAY too much to fail. Look at Pronger/Chara's career paths, and quite honestly he's more talented and significantly ahead of their curves. We've only seen the tip of the iceberg. Quite honestly, I'd take the reigns off and let this thoroghbred run. I'd also get as many of the kids on the team thus year/next season and let them grow together. Myers, Ennis, Weber, Sekera, Kassian, Foligno, Byron, Schiestil (sp?), would be great to watch them grow together and create a real team chemistry. Supplementing a cagey vet or three in there to show them the ropes (not the crew inhabiting HSBC) might be a necessity.
deluca67 Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 Kids got WAY too much to fail. Look at Pronger/Chara's career paths, and quite honestly he's more talented and significantly ahead of their curves. We've only seen the tip of the iceberg. Quite honestly, I'd take the reigns off and let this thoroghbred run. I'd also get as many of the kids on the team thus year/next season and let them grow together. Myers, Ennis, Weber, Sekera, Kassian, Foligno, Byron, Schiestil (sp?), would be great to watch them grow together and create a real team chemistry. Supplementing a cagey vet or three in there to show them the ropes (not the crew inhabiting HSBC) might be a necessity. Many here consider that giving up. I agree 100% with this idea. The core that is in place is not the core that will take this team to the next two or three levels which are playoff contender, Stanley Cup contender and Stanley Cup Champion. Not to say that a few pieces of the core can't play complementary roles. Roy and Vanek are good examples.
Eleven Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 My link So....my thoughts for the past 4 seasons are finally coming to light. Golisano gutted the scouting department to save pennies, not because of some technological advance in scouting. Video killed the scouting star. Kids got WAY too much to fail. Look at Pronger/Chara's career paths, and quite honestly he's more talented and significantly ahead of their curves. We've only seen the tip of the iceberg. Quite honestly, I'd take the reigns off and let this thoroghbred run. I'd also get as many of the kids on the team thus year/next season and let them grow together. Myers, Ennis, Weber, Sekera, Kassian, Foligno, Byron, Schiestil (sp?), would be great to watch them grow together and create a real team chemistry. Supplementing a cagey vet or three in there to show them the ropes (not the crew inhabiting HSBC) might be a necessity. As I said in another thread, it's a five player difference between this team and contender, and a lot of that is because some of the kids can be who Pommer and Roy were in 2006.
Two or less Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 Just playing devils advocate...they did draft Myers, Ennis, Kassian, Foligno, Weber, Sekera and some other promising prospects with this system. I can't recall (too lazy too look it up), were they using "video" scouting when they drafted Zagrapran, Kryukov, Persson. The article, is pretty much re-written based on this article from about a week ago from some no-name blogger, but it was talked about on another forum, and presents the point you're trying to make.... sorry sabrespace gods for posting a link to another forum but here it goes- http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=867113 The response from user "zip15" is spot on.
Eleven Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 The article, is pretty much re-written based on this article from about a week ago from some no-name blogger, but it was talked about on another forum, and presents the point you're trying to make.... sorry sabrespace gods for posting a link to another forum but here it goes- http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=867113 The response from user "zip15" is spot on. I get the point, but scouting is not limited to junior players. Good teams have live scouts at AHL games, junior games, high school games, and--gasp!--at NHL games. Cutting the live scouting was a mistake. It will take a lot more than zip15's post to convince me otherwise.
tom webster Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 Problem with this thread is that it ignores facts. It may take me a day to research and find the article but as of last year the Sabres ranked first in the league in number of players they drafted that are currently playing in the NHL.
bob_sauve28 Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 Just playing devils advocate...they did draft Myers, Ennis, Kassian, Foligno, Weber, Sekera [Adam, Byron] and some other promising prospects with this system. I can't recall (too lazy too look it up), were they using "video" scouting when they drafted Zagrapran, Kryukov, Persson. Exactly!
nfreeman Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 Problem with this thread is that it ignores facts. It may take me a day to research and find the article but as of last year the Sabres ranked first in the league in number of players they drafted that are currently playing in the NHL. I don't disagree with this, but I will also say that the article is an indicator that DR is generally well regarded around the NHL. Elliotte Friedman is a pretty well-respected hockey writer.
henysgol Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 Granted- but Myers is having a terrible sophomore season. Does he bounce back? Probably. Ennis I really like. Foligno has yet to play. Kassian is interesting to me. I hope he produces. Problem is, he seems to have no discipline. And he is another unproven. Weber I'm not so sure about. Sekera, IMO, is a bust. I agreed until I got to Weber. The kid is a FORCE. Butt kicking no-nonsense in your face @$$hole. Part pest, part enforcer, part security system. I say keep him out there. And poor Sekera, the kid just needs to be partnered with the right guy and he WILL perform to his ability.
nucci Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 My link So....my thoughts for the past 4 seasons are finally coming to light. Golisano gutted the scouting department to save pennies, not because of some technological advance in scouting. Quote: ""These scouts are traveling all over the world. All these expenses, could they accomplish a lot more staying in one place with the use of video?" the owner said. "And they believe they can. If somebody interprets that as not being progressive and being regressive, that's too bad. But we think we're far more efficient and have a much better scouting organization than we did three years ago." Sounds like an understandable plan to run, say, a private business. But not a good plan to win a Stanley Cup with. And if you're a small market team that is constantly crying about the salary cap, you're bread and butter IS the draft, so you had better not be pinching pennies in that area. That being said, would there be any chance that we could get even 1 of these guys back with new ownership: 1.) Director of Pro Scouting Terry Martin (Colorado) 2.) Director of Amateur Scouting Jim Benning (now in Boston) 3.) Assistant general Manager Larry Carriere (Montreal) left in 2004 Thoughts? Oh, and I'm for keeping Ruff as head coach, firing Regier, and hiring Rick Dudley as GM. I will also add bringing Don Luce back from Philly.
wnyguy Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 Kids got WAY too much to fail. Look at Pronger/Chara's career paths, and quite honestly he's more talented and significantly ahead of their curves. We've only seen the tip of the iceberg. Quite honestly, I'd take the reigns off and let this thoroghbred run. I'd also get as many of the kids on the team thus year/next season and let them grow together. Myers, Ennis, Weber, Sekera, Kassian, Foligno, Byron, Schiestil (sp?), would be great to watch them grow together and create a real team chemistry. Supplementing a cagey vet or three in there to show them the ropes (not the crew inhabiting HSBC) might be a necessity. I would love for them to do this. Bring the kids up and let them play and grow here. The core group we have here now is stale and uninspiring.
SwampD Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 Problem with this thread is that it ignores facts. It may take me a day to research and find the article but as of last year the Sabres ranked first in the league in number of players they drafted that are currently playing in the NHL. But isn't that number skewed by the fact that they have players on the team that shouldn't be playing on an NHL team, and that they are known for not getting free agents from somewhere else?
tom webster Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 But isn't that number skewed by the fact that they have players on the team that shouldn't be playing on an NHL team, and that they are known for not getting free agents from somewhere else? Even if you take out three or four of their fringe players, they still were in the top 3. I have to find that article.
Realist Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 Sabres have been very good at finding the young players, their failure is in finding impact veterans via free agency. Our last solid FA pickups were the two that got away.
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