inkman Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 So all this talk of height in other threads got me thinking. Is there enough room on the Sabres roster for all the shorties in the organ-eye-zation? Roy, Ennis, Gerbe, Byron...all 5-9 or shorter. Can a NHL team have that many little dudes and compete? I'd like to think so but the rest of the roster needs to resemble Kassian and Foligno, not Pominville and Connolly.
Calvin Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 So all this talk of height in other threads got me thinking. Is there enough room on the Sabres roster for all the shorties in the organ-eye-zation? Roy, Ennis, Gerbe, Byron...all 5-9 or shorter. Can a NHL team have that many little dudes and compete? I'd like to think so but the rest of the roster needs to resemble Kassian and Foligno, not Pominville and Connolly. thinking about the other players who have come up from Portland this year.. McCormick, Adam, Gragnani, Ellis (who has been here before).. they're definitely not midgets and show much more energy than the Roy-Pommers clique, i feel the future is safe on size.
Robviously Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 So all this talk of height in other threads got me thinking. Is there enough room on the Sabres roster for all the shorties in the organ-eye-zation? Roy, Ennis, Gerbe, Byron...all 5-9 or shorter. Can a NHL team have that many little dudes and compete? I'd like to think so but the rest of the roster needs to resemble Kassian and Foligno, not Pominville and Connolly. We've definitely been drafting bigger the past three years - Myers, Adam, Kassian, McNabb, Foligno, and even Gauthier-Leduc and Mackenzie last year. It's also notable that the Sabres seem to have given up on drafting Europeans and are just concentrating on CHL prospects. I think a light finally went on and they want guys with size and strength who can play the North American style.
Stoner Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 We've definitely been drafting bigger the past three years - Myers, Adam, Kassian, McNabb, Foligno, and even Gauthier-Leduc and Mackenzie last year. It's also notable that the Sabres seem to have given up on drafting Europeans and are just concentrating on CHL prospects. I think a light finally went on and they want guys with size and strength who can play the North American style. Guess the Wings didn't get the memo. Half their roster is non North American -- and three of their seven 2010 draft picks. I hope under the Pegula regime some kind of consistent philosophy emerges one way or the other, whatever philosophy they think can win a Cup. The Sabres under Regier just flop in the breeze. Who knows what they stand for? They're reacting to a slight postlockout trend by drafting players who won't be making a contribution for years. By then, the league might look more like 2006 again. You can't win chasing your tail.
Robviously Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 Guess the Wings didn't get the memo. Half their roster is non North American -- and three of their seven 2010 draft picks. I hope under the Pegula regime some kind of consistent philosophy emerges one way or the other, whatever philosophy they think can win a Cup. The Sabres under Regier just flop in the breeze. Who knows what they stand for? They're reacting to a slight postlockout trend by drafting players who won't be making a contribution for years. By then, the league might look more like 2006 again. You can't win chasing your tail. I think the Sabres are reacting to their own horrible failures taking Europeans in the first round -- Artem Kruikov, Jiri Novotny, Marek Zagrapan, and Dennis Perrson were all first round picks of ours since 2000 and we have nothing to show for it. Taking Kruikov over Brooks Orpik in particular still drives me nuts 10 years later when it was clear even in 2000 that Orpik was exactly the type of player the Sabres needed. Obviously I want the Sabres to scoop up a guy like Sekera if he's available but at this point I don't trust them to find European players who will develop and then want to come to North America. Maybe they're finally admitting they don't know what they're doing. As for team philosophy, I've been adamant for a while now that Regier doesn't have any plan for winning the Stanley Cup. Maybe that's a function of who he works for, but he just seems to slap a roster together from whatever free agent leftovers he can find each year. I never detect any "We need players X, Y, and Z to win the Cup" when I think about how the Sabres build their roster. They just sort of meander along roster-wise hoping they can accidentally put together a contender.
shrader Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 It has a lot more to do with the state of the transfer agreements for european players than anything else. The other big role is the fact that you now lose a european's rights if he goes unsigned 2 years after being drafted. That wasn't the case in the old CBA and those guys had a lot more time and didn't have to rush their move to North America.
Weave Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 IMO even if Kassian and Foligno end up in the NHL next year there are still too many little guys on the roster. I don't think there has ever been a title contending team with a little guy on each forward line, and that is what Buffalo would have if we kept all of them. To me it makes sense to keep Roy and one of Ennis/Gerbe for the top 6. After that, the rest of the top 6 needs to consist of players that can excel in traffic, and the little guys on our roster don't fit that bill. Maybe there is room for one more if they decide to run 3 legit scoring lines. But I'm thinking that is still too many small players. In my mind the biggest problem with keeping that many little guys is how do lines get assembled that make sense? Can big lugs like Kassian play effectively with a little waterbug? I don't know. On the WJC team they played Kassian and Foligno with a center that matched their speed and game. I don't know that a little guy compliments the big power forwards. I don't see a Gerbe meshing well with a Kassian or Foligno. The Wings may have alot of Euros but they sure aren't dominated by small or soft players. The smallest (and probably softest) is Jiri Hudler at 5'9" or Roy sized and they have big Euros that play in traffic when needed too like Filppula, Franzen, Salei, and Ericsson. Looking at Detroit's roster, they seem very average in size with a couple big guys (Bertuzzi and Franzen) and alot of guys around 5'11" that excel at puck movement. The Sabres used to have a similar looking roster and had excellent results with it. It wouldn't hurt my feelings any to go back to 3 lines with a couple big guys and the rest rather average with great puck moving ability.
nfreeman Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 IMO even if Kassian and Foligno end up in the NHL next year there are still too many little guys on the roster. I don't think there has ever been a title contending team with a little guy on each forward line, and that is what Buffalo would have if we kept all of them. To me it makes sense to keep Roy and one of Ennis/Gerbe for the top 6. After that, the rest of the top 6 needs to consist of players that can excel in traffic, and the little guys on our roster don't fit that bill. Maybe there is room for one more if they decide to run 3 legit scoring lines. But I'm thinking that is still too many small players. In my mind the biggest problem with keeping that many little guys is how do lines get assembled that make sense? Can big lugs like Kassian play effectively with a little waterbug? I don't know. On the WJC team they played Kassian and Foligno with a center that matched their speed and game. I don't know that a little guy compliments the big power forwards. I don't see a Gerbe meshing well with a Kassian or Foligno. The Wings may have alot of Euros but they sure aren't dominated by small or soft players. The smallest (and probably softest) is Jiri Hudler at 5'9" or Roy sized and they have big Euros that play in traffic when needed too like Filppula, Franzen, Salei, and Ericsson. Looking at Detroit's roster, they seem very average in size with a couple big guys (Bertuzzi and Franzen) and alot of guys around 5'11" that excel at puck movement. The Sabres used to have a similar looking roster and had excellent results with it. It wouldn't hurt my feelings any to go back to 3 lines with a couple big guys and the rest rather average with great puck moving ability. I would be very surprised to see Foligno on the Sabres next year for an appreciable number of games. Kassian has more of a chance but even with him it's at least 50/50 that he starts in Portland and spends the bulk of the season there. I'm fine with keeping all of Roy, Ennis and Gerbe. I like Gerbe on the 3rd line with Gaustad and McCormick, plus getting PP time. I also like a #2 line of Roy-Ennis-Stafford (with Pommer and Vanek on the top line with the holy grail #1 center coming in from outside the organization). If Kassian muscles his way into the lineup, I can see being happy with a #3 line of Gaustad-Gerbe-Kassian and a #4 line of McCormick-Kaleta-XXX. Yes, the top 2 lines still won't have much size/hitting, but they could be pretty dynamic offensively. I think Gerbe has a 50/50 chance of developing into a 20-goal NHL player, while Ennis could be a 60-point scorer next year. I don't see any reason to walk away from that kind of production.
X. Benedict Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 I think the Sabres are reacting to their own horrible failures taking Europeans in the first round -- Artem Kruikov, Jiri Novotny, Marek Zagrapan, and Dennis Perrson were all first round picks of ours since 2000 and we have nothing to show for it. Draft founds in the NHL is a tricky thing in terms of branding. While those guys mentioned are first rounders... Generally you have up to 12 players that are A1 ranked, after that there is a substantial falloff. Past that, usually your 16-100 players can all be lumped together in terms of the talent pool. That is to say your #17 player is probably pretty comparable to your #98 player. After that there is a huge falloff again. So while you still have rounds. I think it is better to consider the draft it like this: 1-12 Group A 13-100 Group B 100 up Group C. Some years these will vary....but I would call Novotny, Zagrapan, and Persson as Group B failures. Exceptional years...like 2003 or 2004 go 20 deep in the A group.
Robviously Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 Draft founds in the NHL is a tricky thing in terms of branding. While those guys mentioned are first rounders... Generally you have up to 12 players that are A1 ranked, after that there is a substantial falloff. Past that, usually your 16-100 players can all be lumped together in terms of the talent pool. That is to say your #17 player is probably pretty comparable to your #98 player. After that there is a huge falloff again. So while you still have rounds. I think it is better to consider the draft it like this: 1-12 Group A 13-100 Group B 100 up Group C. Some years these will vary....but I would call Novotny, Zagrapan, and Persson as Group B failures. Exceptional years...like 2003 or 2004 go 20 deep in the A group. How many Group A's are we supposed to have this year?
Weave Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 How many Group A's are we supposed to have this year? From everything I've heard this year is a shallow talent pool year. I've read somewhere that there are like 4 top notch prospects and then a significant drop off to the next group.
shrader Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 From everything I've heard this year is a shallow talent pool year. I've read somewhere that there are like 4 top notch prospects and then a significant drop off to the next group. But that's not to say that the draft itself isn't deep. I really don't know for this year's class, but even with a dropoff like that, that second pool of talent could potentially be much larger than the normal year's class. The elite talent level for this year's draft does seem to be pretty well documented with what you said though.
X. Benedict Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 How many Group A's are we supposed to have this year? It is looking very thin at the top so far, the buzz is that there are as few as 5 to 8. Courtier or Larson (who were both at the world Juniors) could go number 1. But talk is that these guys would go #6 to #10 in most drafts. They didn't particularly stand out at the WJC as being can't miss.
X. Benedict Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 But that's not to say that the draft itself isn't deep. I really don't know for this year's class, but even with a dropoff like that, that second pool of talent could potentially be much larger than the normal year's class. The elite talent level for this year's draft does seem to be pretty well documented with what you said though. True.
Weave Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 But that's not to say that the draft itself isn't deep. I really don't know for this year's class, but even with a dropoff like that, that second pool of talent could potentially be much larger than the normal year's class. The elite talent level for this year's draft does seem to be pretty well documented with what you said though. I just did a very cursory search to see if I could back it up and didn't find anything but.... from what I'm hearing the draft is thin at all levels. This year is not supposed to be a good year to replenish talent.
X. Benedict Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 I just did a very cursory search to see if I could back it up and didn't find anything but.... from what I'm hearing the draft is thin at all levels. This year is not supposed to be a good year to replenish talent. I don't think anybody will be able to step right into the NHl as Tavares and Stamkos did. That's not to say there isn't a lot of blue chip talent (as Shrader previously implied), just not top end. unfortunately for the Sabres, this draft is thin at center, as is the UFA market coming up. It's a double whammy for teams looking to get stronger up the middle.
nobody Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 I don't think anybody will be able to step right into the NHl as Tavares and Stamkos did. That's not to say there isn't a lot of blue chip talent (as Shrader previously implied), just not top end. unfortunately for the Sabres, this draft is thin at center, as is the UFA market coming up. It's a double whammy for teams looking to get stronger up the middle. Luckily, the Sabres have 2 of the top 20 centers in the league.
shrader Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 I don't think anybody will be able to step right into the NHl as Tavares and Stamkos did. That's not to say there isn't a lot of blue chip talent (as Shrader previously implied), just not top end. unfortunately for the Sabres, this draft is thin at center, as is the UFA market coming up. It's a double whammy for teams looking to get stronger up the middle. And if it's as thin as it sounds, I get the feeling that this one will be far more likely to have one of those late round Datsyuk/Zetterberg gems. Probably not someone anywhere near their level, but those always seem to be the drafts where that kind of story is eventually told 5-7 years later.
Weave Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 Upon further review..... an NHL.com blogger and fromtherink.com is saying that this years draft may actually be deeper than last years', so...... :blink: There seems to be a consensus 3 players that have the ability to be genuine impact players (Cortourier, Larsson, Nugent-Hopkins) . There are a couple more that *could be* impact players down the road. But it sounds like maybe the draft isn't as thin overall as early predictions said it would be. NHL.com sez that the top 30 this year is better overall than the top 30 last year.
X. Benedict Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 Upon further review..... an NHL.com blogger and fromtherink.com is saying that this years draft may actually be deeper than last years', so...... :blink: There seems to be a consensus 3 players that have the ability to be genuine impact players (Cortourier, Larsson, Nugent-Hopkins) . There are a couple more that *could be* impact players down the road. But it sounds like maybe the draft isn't as thin overall as early predictions said it would be. NHL.com sez that the top 30 this year is better overall than the top 30 last year. I'm very skeptical about that, but honestly it is so hard to tell. A good portion of the top 30 haven't turned 18 yet. The top players look thin. Last years first round and half the second were very solid.
shrader Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 Upon further review..... an NHL.com blogger and fromtherink.com is saying that this years draft may actually be deeper than last years', so...... :blink: There seems to be a consensus 3 players that have the ability to be genuine impact players (Cortourier, Larsson, Nugent-Hopkins) . There are a couple more that *could be* impact players down the road. But it sounds like maybe the draft isn't as thin overall as early predictions said it would be. NHL.com sez that the top 30 this year is better overall than the top 30 last year. I had seen Couturier all the way down at #5 on some of the recent rankings. Another non-Larsson swede, Gabriel Landeskog seems to be on top now.
carpandean Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 So all this talk of height in other threads got me thinking. Is there enough room on the Sabres roster for all the shorties in the organ-eye-zation? Roy, Ennis, Gerbe, Byron...all 5-9 or shorter. Can a NHL team have that many little dudes and compete? I'd like to think so but the rest of the roster needs to resemble Kassian and Foligno, not Pominville and Connolly. I don't believe Byron is at the point where he is in any serious discussion for next season even with his recent call-up. As for the other three, I would say that the important thing is that they have all shown or, in Gerbe's case, are now showing that they can be NHL players. With the right GM, that would mean that one should be available for trade either at the deadline or this Summer. It would be tough to have all three on the roster, but every team has at least one little guy. Find a team without one and work a trade. Until recently, Gerbe wouldn't have gotten them anything; now, it looks like he could.
X. Benedict Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 I had seen Couturier all the way down at #5 on some of the recent rankings. Another non-Larsson swede, Gabriel Landeskog seems to be on top now. There was another Swede that I thought was better than these guys, Freisburg (sp?) There are plenty of very good Swedes. I think Couturier will climb back up. Joel Arima (a Finn) moves very well and has good vision, and Salomakki his teamate should be a first round pick. Conz the Swiss goalie kept the Swiss in almost every game at the WJC. There are definitely decent players available. I just don't think there will be much to distinguish between first and second round picks after the first seven or eight picks. Which could mean that teams might be more willing to trade first rounders at the NHL trade deadline.
Weave Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 I don't believe Byron is at the point where he is in any serious discussion for next season even with his recent call-up. As for the other three, I would say that the important thing is that they have all shown or, in Gerbe's case, are now showing that they can be NHL players. With the right GM, that would mean that one should be available for trade either at the deadline or this Summer. It would be tough to have all three on the roster, but every team has at least one little guy. Find a team without one and work a trade. Until recently, Gerbe wouldn't have gotten them anything; now, it looks like he could. This is what I am hoping for, that one or two of our little guys have enough value to bring a valuable addition to the team back in return.
nfreeman Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 This is what I am hoping for, that one or two of our little guys have enough value to bring a valuable addition to the team back in return. Well, Roy would probably bring the most back, but with the impending departure of TC, the Sabres will already be down a center. I have a hard time seeing them trade Roy unless it's for another center (like, say, Spezza).
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.