Game Discussion Thread

[NowDoYouBelieve]

If there were any advantage to being 5'5" instead of 5'11" there would have been many more 5'5" players around. Other than Gerbe, the ONLY NHL'er I can think of that was that small is Theo Fleury and he had elite talent level and drive that allowed him to overcome it. All of the other small players I can think of; Gionta, St Louis, Briere, Audette, etc were BIGGER than Gerbe. A simple look at rosters is enough to convince that 5'5" is not an advantage over 5'11".

 

But the point is that a hockey player is a hockey player is a hockey player. Gerbe was also the smallest guy in Portland and he averaged a point per game. He was the smallest guy at Boston College and he got 68 points in 43 games his senior year. If Gerbe's size truly prevented him from playing the game, he and everybody else would have realized it by now.

 

It sure wasn't an advantage to Jim Abbott that he only had one hand. But he pitched a decade in the Major Leagues and threw a no-hitter, because the man was born to be a pitcher.

 

So far in 41 professional games, Gerbe has 8 goals and 12 assists, not to mention a +10 rating. I'd say that's pretty good for a guy's first foray into the NHL, especially a 5th rounder.

 

I'm not trying to be combative. I just refuse to see Gerbe's diminutive stature as a true limitation until it actually becomes a limitation.

[Weave]

But the point is that a hockey player is a hockey player is a hockey player. Gerbe was also the smallest guy in Portland and he averaged a point per game. He was the smallest guy at Boston College and he got 68 points in 43 games his senior year. If Gerbe's size truly prevented him from playing the game, he and everybody else would have realized it by now.

 

It sure wasn't an advantage to Jim Abbott that he only had one hand. But he pitched a decade in the Major Leagues and threw a no-hitter, because the man was born to be a pitcher.

 

So far in 41 professional games, Gerbe has 8 goals and 11 assists. I'd say that's pretty good for a guy's first foray into the NHL, especially a 5th rounder.

 

I'm not trying to be combative. I just refuse to see Gerbe's diminutive stature as a true limitation until it actually becomes a limitation.

 

Noone is suggesting Gerbe can't play the game. But colleges, junior teams, and the AHL are riddled with players who scored incredibly well but were still missing "something" that prevented them from succeeding at the NHL level. It happens every freaking year. Gerbe's ameteur and minor league success is commendable, but not atypical.

 

His size IS a limitation. Even his supporters here admit that his size is a limitation (ie, he'd be better off on a team or line with bigger players). I think if you asked him even he would tell you so. He was drafted in the 5th round instead of an earlier round because of his size. Like we've debated before, the only way a player of that size can overcome his limitation is through greater talent. Ultimately his talent will determine how far he goes but if he were bigger his talent wouldn't have to overcome so much liability, and his future in the NHL would be more certain.

[Stoner]

This is what I see as most likely to occur as well.

 

The fanbase routinely laments the lack of elite level talent on this team. There is almost none to be had in trade, the FA market this summer has noone of truly elite status, and now the team is screwing us out of a draft position most likely to be in the running for an elite talent player.

 

The quest for mediocrity goes on....

 

I'm not saying it's deliberate, but it's very well in-grained in the organization that talent is to be treated as a problem. Vanek was benched for the playoffs one year. His ice time is held back. Do the Sabres really want a 60-goal scorer? Now I see Tyler Myers struggling. His defense partner was traded away. Pegula wonders why. The first step is benching Myers for parts of games. A trip to the press box or two will follow. He'll struggle. A Norris Trophy winner makes a fortune. Again, not saying it's a plan they carry out willfully, but after 13 years with these two guys, the moves are made almost reflexively. They've bought full-tilt into the small market mentality. They know how the game works and how they keep their jobs.

 

Paranoid? Maybe. Maybe not.

 

I do know that Pegula's Job One is taking "small market" out of the organization's vocabulary.

[Weave]

I'm not saying it's deliberate, but it's very well in-grained in the organization that talent is to be treated as a problem. Vanek was benched for the playoffs one year. His ice time is held back. Do the Sabres really want a 60-goal scorer? Now I see Tyler Myers struggling. His defense partner was traded away. Pegula wonders why. The first step is benching Myers for parts of games. A trip to the press box or two will follow. He'll struggle. A Norris Trophy winner makes a fortune. Again, not saying it's a plan they carry out willfully, but after 13 years with these two guys, the moves are made almost reflexively. They've bought full-tilt into the small market mentality. They know how the game works and how they keep their jobs.

 

Paranoid? Maybe. Maybe not.

 

I do know that Pegula's Job One is taking "small market" out of the organization's vocabulary.

 

I don't think that they are screwing us out of a shot at elite level talent on purpose. I think it is just another expression of mgt's incompetence. :wallbash:

[kishoph]

I was very critical of GERBE the first half of the season, but it had nothing to do with his size, it was his effort. He continuously just poked at the puck and acted like he wanted no part of the game (he wasn't sat in the press box for nothing), since he's been put back in the line up he's giving 100%, he's holding the puck and looking to make plays and he's burying his chances. His confidence seems high, as it should be. He's showing why he had success in those other leagues and hopefully he'll continue to do so.

[korab rules]

 

Name one player who had success in the NHL at 5'5.

 

Size and skill are different of course. The Bills Oline argument is another strawman argument. I could say Aaron Maybin is small and he sucks so therefore Gerbe must be the same. I dont think theres much of a translation from the NFL to the NHL is terms of size. Hockey is much different.

 

Gerbe is small, he has been bad for most of the year but has been playing very well recently. Cody Mccormick was on fire earlier in the year too, but has since gone back to his normal self.

 

The difference between good and average is consistency. We cant make an assessment on Gerbe until he plays more games, and has a body of work. He has had success at every level he has played up to the NHL, and is showing he can at least do it in spurts here.

 

There is a reason so few players of his dimensions have had any success at this level. Its too hard to overcome physics and few can do it. Even St Louis is much bigger.

 

Gerbe is listed at 5'5' but he is really 5'4". A good friend and his son were able to get into the locker room during pre-season last year (pays to know people). My friend's son was then 5'4" - he looked Gerbe dead in the eye.

 

If there were any advantage to being 5'5" instead of 5'11" there would have been many more 5'5" players around. Other than Gerbe, the ONLY NHL'er I can think of that was that small is Theo Fleury and he had elite talent level and drive that allowed him to overcome it. All of the other small players I can think of; Gionta, St Louis, Briere, Audette, etc were BIGGER than Gerbe. A simple look at rosters is enough to convince that 5'5" is not an advantage over 5'11".

 

There is a difference between height and size - Gerbe is 5'4" 178, but is built like a brick shat house. He is broad chested and muscular and is (physically) more along the line of a Fleury (5'6", 180) than any other names listed as comparisons. Gionta (5'7" 173)and Briere 5'10" 170are slight - they are taller, but not as muscular as Gerbe. Marty St. Louis (5'8", 178) and Donald Audette (5'8", 184) are somewhere in between. We can only hope that Gerbe's career looks anything like Fleury's when its all said and done.

 

The above paragraph is the final draft, after researching the heights and weights. I have to say that after researching this I have my doubts whether Gerbe will ever turn into a productive NHL player. Before this, I was more hopeful that he could. I WANT him to succeed. I loved him in college, and hoped that he could make the transition to the NHL, but the deck is really stacked against him. Fleury is close in body size, but was so supremely talented that he made it work. Gerbe is a full 2" shorter and certainly less talented. The next closest height wise is Gionta, but Gionta plays a completely different game - the same with Brier (who can't possibly be 5"10"). I initially thought Gerbe was closest to St. Louis, and they play a similar game, but St. Louis is a full four inches taller than Gerbe.

 

Someone pointed out that with a healthy roster, Gerbe is back in the press box, and I think I agree. He is a skilled player, and has made the most of this opportunity. Unfortunately, his heart may be the biggest asset he possesses. I just have a hard time believing he becomes a full time NHL player on a healthy roster. I hope I am wrong, but the fact he is a full 3 and 4 inches shorter than the other shortest people in the game tells me I am probably right.

[PromoTheRobot]

Me. This team is done. Being able to beat the Islanders(who are one of the two worst teams in hockey along with the Oilers), only one out of three times is about all I need to see. You think Lindy has run Miller into the ground, just wait until they return after the all-star break. Lalime might as well not even get dressed.

 

Missing the playoffs will be a good thing, because I don't want to see Pegula even give one second of thought to keeping Ruff & Regier because of their amazing run to 8th place and a "one and done".

 

Tell that to the Flyers when they squeaked into the playoffs last year.

 

PTR

[Robviously]

If there were any advantage to being 5'5" instead of 5'11" there would have been many more 5'5" players around. Other than Gerbe, the ONLY NHL'er I can think of that was that small is Theo Fleury and he had elite talent level and drive that allowed him to overcome it. All of the other small players I can think of; Gionta, St Louis, Briere, Audette, etc were BIGGER than Gerbe. A simple look at rosters is enough to convince that 5'5" is not an advantage over 5'11".

Would there have been? If men's heights follow a basic bell curve and 5'11" is the average height for a man, there just aren't that many men who are 5'5". Certainly not anywhere close to how many are 5'11".

 

Then you factor in that guys who are that small probably don't gravitate towards sports or decide early on that they won't make it. Then you have even less guys trying to make it with that height.

 

Finally, you always have to factor in that NHL teams are stupid. Teams always find themselves mesmerized by height. This is how we got Dan Briere for Chris Gratton, or why the Sabres drafted Wayne Primeau in the first round. Then there's Taylor Pyatt.

 

Anyways, I don't think the general lack of 5'5" NHL players is necessarily proof that it can't possibly work.

[chileanseabass]

 

Marty St. Louis (5'8", 178)

 

FWIW, when I was living in Tampa, they had a thing on TV about Marty, and he said he's only 5'6".

[X. Benedict]

FWIW, when I was living in Tampa, they had a thing on TV about Marty, and he said he's only 5'6".

 

I'm betting Briere is 5'6-7" as well...he's listed as 5'10".

 

the tendency is to list them as taller. Theo Flurry and J.F. Sauve come to mind.

 

Though I would also bet that Gerbe is about 5'3".

[Weave]

Would there have been? If men's heights follow a basic bell curve and 5'11" is the average height for a man, there just aren't that many men who are 5'5". Certainly not anywhere close to how many are 5'11".

 

Then you factor in that guys who are that small probably don't gravitate towards sports or decide early on that they won't make it. Then you have even less guys trying to make it with that height.

 

Finally, you always have to factor in that NHL teams are stupid. Teams always find themselves mesmerized by height. This is how we got Dan Briere for Chris Gratton, or why the Sabres drafted Wayne Primeau in the first round. Then there's Taylor Pyatt.

 

Anyways, I don't think the general lack of 5'5" NHL players is necessarily proof that it can't possibly work.

 

I agree that statistically there are few men at 5'5" and therefore MUCH fewer NHL'ers at 5'5", but we aren't talking about *just* a small sample size here. The sample size is N=1. Gerbe is the only NHL'er at that size in 20 years. The fact that one only person that size has made it to the NHL in 20 years ought to be telling us something about how much of a detriment his size really is.

[LabattBlue]

Tell that to the Flyers when they squeaked into the playoffs last year.

 

PTR

I knew that response was coming. If you think this team has as much talent as the 09-10 Flyers, you are dreaming.

[Robviously]

I agree that statistically there are few men at 5'5" and therefore MUCH fewer NHL'ers at 5'5", but we aren't talking about *just* a small sample size here. The sample size is N=1. Gerbe is the only NHL'er at that size in 20 years. The fact that one only person that size has made it to the NHL in 20 years ought to be telling us something about how much of a detriment his size really is.

Maybe it tells us how awesome Gerbe is. :P

[Weave]

Maybe it tells us how awesome Gerbe is. :P

 

LOL

 

He had to have been a talented and determined little ###### to have made it this far.

[X. Benedict]

I knew that response was coming. If you think this team has as much talent as the 09-10 Flyers, you are dreaming.

 

But as above..... You think missing the playoffs is a good thing? C'mon. That is never true. IMO.

 

Once your team in the playoffs it is never about who is better, or even talent - its about survival. That's what make the NHL playoffs the best thing in sports, period. Only one team had to play the best team last year.....that was Montreal when they beat Washington in the first round.

 

Montreal wasn't anywhere close in talent.

[Weave]

But as above..... You think missing the playoffs is a good thing? C'mon. That is never true. IMO.

 

 

Depends. Short term POV or long term POV?

 

I find myself in an odd situation this year. As a fan I want my team to win and keep winning. I want to watch my team in May and June. I want to root for them when the games increase in intensity and focus.

 

But I also believe that nothing good can come from making the playoffs this year. It reduces the quality of the draft choices we get. It increases the likelihood that more of the team is kept intact in the offseason. And it increases the likelihood that parts of management will be credited positively and given more time to try to make things better. All of these things are long term negative effects of this team making the playoffs this year.

 

On the whole I have come to the conclusion that the rebuild will be quicker and less painless if the team doesn't make the playoffs this year. I am ready to watch this team give up and dismantle now. In fact, I prefer if it would happen this way.

[K-9]

I agree that statistically there are few men at 5'5" and therefore MUCH fewer NHL'ers at 5'5", but we aren't talking about *just* a small sample size here. The sample size is N=1. Gerbe is the only NHL'er at that size in 20 years. The fact that one only person that size has made it to the NHL in 20 years ought to be telling us something about how much of a detriment his size really is.

 

I'd be willing to bet that both a higher percentage and higher gross number of taller players have failed to make the NHL over that time span.

 

Like someone already pointed out, the sheer number of players Gerbe's size available to even try out for the NHL is so small comparatively.

 

That said, I'm not sold on Gerbe yet. Not by a long shot.

 

GO SABRES!!!

[SwampD]

But as above..... You think missing the playoffs is a good thing? C'mon. That is never true. IMO.

 

Once your team in the playoffs it is never about who is better, or even talent - its about survival. That's what make the NHL playoffs the best thing in sports, period. Only one team had to play the best team last year.....that was Montreal when they beat Washington in the first round.

Montreal wasn't anywhere close in talent.

I don't even think that is really true. Montreal's D and goaltending offset Washington's offense, and they had just as much speed up front.

[nfreeman]

Me. This team is done. Being able to beat the Islanders(who are one of the two worst teams in hockey along with the Oilers), only one out of three times is about all I need to see. You think Lindy has run Miller into the ground, just wait until they return after the all-star break. Lalime might as well not even get dressed.

 

Missing the playoffs will be a good thing, because I don't want to see Pegula even give one second of thought to keeping Ruff & Regier because of their amazing run to 8th place and a "one and done".

I don't even think we're going to make that 8th spot. The most likely scenario is that the Sabres end up just good enough to miss the playoffs while not managing to get a top 5 draft pick. Woooo. <_<

 

And it's always worth pointing out how many times other teams see the Sabres on the schedule and decide it's time to let their back-up goalie get a start. We're a sad team that other teams don't take seriously. How sad? Our supposed no.1 center missed the game yesterday and we put Paul Byron in in his place and there was no difference.

 

I hope Pegula buys the team and gives us a fresh start.

This is what I see as most likely to occur as well.

 

The fanbase routinely laments the lack of elite level talent on this team. There is almost none to be had in trade, the FA market this summer has noone of truly elite status, and now the team is screwing us out of a draft position most likely to be in the running for an elite talent player.

 

The quest for mediocrity goes on....

Gentlemen -- I know I don't have to exhort you to root for the Sabres, because I know you are watching the games and want them to win. I'm guessing that years of betrayal and letdowns have left you cynical and skeptical about this team. But I also know that there are some guys on this team who are going to fight tooth and nail to get into the playoffs:

 

Miller

Hecht

Gaustad

Kaleta

McCormick

Gerbe

Weber

 

and, yes, Lindy.

 

Do I wish I could include TC, Vanek, Pommer and Myers on that list? Of course I do. And I think all 4 of them will have good 2nd halves, along with Stafford, Ennis and hopefully Sekera and Leopold. But even without those guys on the blood-and-guts list, I think the 7 guys who are on the list are 7 of the top 14 players in the rotation, and that might be good enough.

 

I thought a couple of weeks ago that the Sabres had 1 chance in 3 to make the playoffs. I now think it's more like 1 in 2.5. And if they get in, I think they can beat anyone in the EC in the 1st round other than Philly and Pittsburgh.

 

But I'm an optimist.

 

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

 

But the point is that a hockey player is a hockey player is a hockey player. Gerbe was also the smallest guy in Portland and he averaged a point per game. He was the smallest guy at Boston College and he got 68 points in 43 games his senior year. If Gerbe's size truly prevented him from playing the game, he and everybody else would have realized it by now.

 

It sure wasn't an advantage to Jim Abbott that he only had one hand. But he pitched a decade in the Major Leagues and threw a no-hitter, because the man was born to be a pitcher.

 

So far in 41 professional games, Gerbe has 8 goals and 12 assists, not to mention a +10 rating. I'd say that's pretty good for a guy's first foray into the NHL, especially a 5th rounder.

 

I'm not trying to be combative. I just refuse to see Gerbe's diminutive stature as a true limitation until it actually becomes a limitation.

I largely agree, but it's hard to argue that his height isn't a limitation. I would say that he's showing now that his height isn't a disqualification. In any case, he's looking lately like a legit NHL player. He's playing hard and with a lot of confidence, being disruptive on the forecheck, and burying his shots when he gets the opportunity. He's certainly filled a goal-scoring void for the Sabres.

 

I'm not saying it's deliberate, but it's very well in-grained in the organization that talent is to be treated as a problem. Vanek was benched for the playoffs one year. His ice time is held back. Do the Sabres really want a 60-goal scorer? Now I see Tyler Myers struggling. His defense partner was traded away. Pegula wonders why. The first step is benching Myers for parts of games. A trip to the press box or two will follow. He'll struggle. A Norris Trophy winner makes a fortune. Again, not saying it's a plan they carry out willfully, but after 13 years with these two guys, the moves are made almost reflexively. They've bought full-tilt into the small market mentality. They know how the game works and how they keep their jobs.

 

Paranoid? Maybe. Maybe not.

 

I do know that Pegula's Job One is taking "small market" out of the organization's vocabulary.

You have got to be kidding me.

 

Miller is the best player on the team -- has he been held back? Did he get a below-market contract? Did Pommer? For that matter, did Vanek?

 

Myers was the best non-goalie on the team last year. He was called up a year early from juniors and then led the team in ice time. Was he held back?

 

Briere was the best forward on the team when he was here and put up 95 points. Was he held back?

 

I'm not going to use the N-word, but this post is really crying out for it.

 

Someone pointed out that with a healthy roster, Gerbe is back in the press box, and I think I agree. He is a skilled player, and has made the most of this opportunity. Unfortunately, his heart may be the biggest asset he possesses. I just have a hard time believing he becomes a full time NHL player on a healthy roster. I hope I am wrong, but the fact he is a full 3 and 4 inches shorter than the other shortest people in the game tells me I am probably right.

I think he's played his way into the lineup. The 7th defenseman will sit before he does.

 

He had to have been a talented and determined little ###### to have made it this far.

+1

[Weave]

Miller

Hecht

Gaustad

Kaleta

McCormick

Gerbe

Weber

 

and, yes, Lindy.

 

Do I wish I could include TC, Vanek, Pommer and Myers on that list? Of course I do. And I think all 4 of them will have good 2nd halves, along with Stafford, Ennis and hopefully Sekera and Leopold. But even without those guys on the blood-and-guts list, I think the 7 guys who are on the list are 7 of the top 14 players in the rotation, and that might be good enough.

 

I can't bring myself to get optimistic about that list. :sick: In fact, there are only 3 guys on that list that I might be interested in having back after the big purge I hope is coming soon.

[LabattBlue]

But as above..... You think missing the playoffs is a good thing? C'mon. That is never true. IMO.

 

Once your team in the playoffs it is never about who is better, or even talent - its about survival. That's what make the NHL playoffs the best thing in sports, period. Only one team had to play the best team last year.....that was Montreal when they beat Washington in the first round.

 

Montreal wasn't anywhere close in talent.

I believe that cleaning house(firing or not re-signing Ruff and Regier) in the off season MUST happen. I think missing the playoffs will help cement this, and if that is the case, YES, I do think that missing the playoffs is a good thing.

[X. Benedict]

I believe that cleaning house(firing or not re-signing Ruff and Regier) in the off season MUST happen. I think missing the playoffs will help cement this, and if that is the case, YES, I do think that missing the playoffs is a good thing.

Without offending you, (seriously I'm not trying to) What a gloomy and un-fun perspective to adopt at this point of the season IMO. The season is predicated on 29 teams not winning the Stanley Cup. Buffalo will probably be one of those 29. ......but so will any other team you name at this point based on probability.

 

Cutting your hand off at the wrist will get you through triage faster, but it certainly doesn't make you better than before.

 

Any playoff experience can only help guys like Ennis, Weber, Adam, Myers, Gerbe and very possibly Kassian and Folgnio down the road.

 

 

Not making the playoffs only guarantees a top 14 draft pick. Nothing else.

[deluca67]

Without offending you, (seriously I'm not trying to) What a gloomy and un-fun perspective to adopt at this point of the season IMO. The season is predicated on 29 teams not winning the Stanley Cup. Buffalo will probably be one of those 29. ......but so will any other team you name at this point based on probability.

 

Cutting your hand off at the wrist will get you through triage faster, but it certainly doesn't make you better than before.

 

Any playoff experience can only help guys like Ennis, Weber, Adam, Myers, Gerbe and very possibly Kassian and Folgnio down the road.

 

 

Not making the playoffs only guarantees a top 14 draft pick. Nothing else.

I couldn't careless if the season was predicated on 50 teams not wining the Stanley Cup. The goal is to be the one that wins the Stanley Cup. If making the playoffs means that Ruff and Regier are retained then all you have done is guarantee the Sabres will not be that One team during their extended tenure.

 

You said "Cutting your hand off at the wrist will get you through triage faster, but it certainly doesn't make you better than before." It does make you better if the hand is infected and you could possibly lose the entire arm or die. Ruff and Regier are the Gangrene that needs to be cut away before the rest of the body dies.

[bunomatic]

I have to say that I agree with what both labbattblue and xbenedict are saying. Both scenarios make sense. I want Regier gone and a housecleaning but I hope to hell this team makes the playoffs as well. There's something about being in regardless of the outcome that appeals to me and there's something about a fresh start with new management that appeals to me. I'm torn.

[deluca67]

Gentlemen -- I know I don't have to exhort you to root for the Sabres, because I know you are watching the games and want them to win. I'm guessing that years of betrayal and letdowns have left you cynical and skeptical about this team. But I also know that there are some guys on this team who are going to fight tooth and nail to get into the playoffs:

 

Miller

Hecht

Gaustad

Kaleta

McCormick

Gerbe

Weber

 

and, yes, Lindy.

 

Do I wish I could include TC, Vanek, Pommer and Myers on that list? Of course I do. And I think all 4 of them will have good 2nd halves, along with Stafford, Ennis and hopefully Sekera and Leopold. But even without those guys on the blood-and-guts list, I think the 7 guys who are on the list are 7 of the top 14 players in the rotation, and that might be good enough.

 

I thought a couple of weeks ago that the Sabres had 1 chance in 3 to make the playoffs. I now think it's more like 1 in 2.5. And if they get in, I think they can beat anyone in the EC in the 1st round other than Philly and Pittsburgh.

 

But I'm an optimist.

 

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

 

 

I largely agree, but it's hard to argue that his height isn't a limitation. I would say that he's showing now that his height isn't a disqualification. In any case, he's looking lately like a legit NHL player. He's playing hard and with a lot of confidence, being disruptive on the forecheck, and burying his shots when he gets the opportunity. He's certainly filled a goal-scoring void for the Sabres.

 

 

You have got to be kidding me.

 

Miller is the best player on the team -- has he been held back? Did he get a below-market contract? Did Pommer? For that matter, did Vanek?

 

Myers was the best non-goalie on the team last year. He was called up a year early from juniors and then led the team in ice time. Was he held back?

 

Briere was the best forward on the team when he was here and put up 95 points. Was he held back?

 

I'm not going to use the N-word, but this post is really crying out for it.

 

 

I think he's played his way into the lineup. The 7th defenseman will sit before he does.

 

 

+1

Two things.

 

1 - that list of players does not instill any confidence.

 

2 - the Vanek, Pominville and Miller contracts were signed while this team was trying save face as a result of the Drury & Briere backlash.