Doohicksie Posted January 20, 2011 Report Posted January 20, 2011 You know, Vanek is suddenly looking better than I remember him playing, even in his 40-goal season. He's driving the net with more determination. He's carrying the puck more effectively. He's SHOOTING more (and they seem to be finding the back of the net, like his recent shootout slapshot). All this means that oppoonents are taking him more seriously. But here's the best part: He seems to be recognizing this, and is dishing the puck to the open guy. He had assists on both goals Tuesday, the last one was a perfect pass to end it in OT. I think he's getting his groove back.
JJFIVEOH Posted January 20, 2011 Report Posted January 20, 2011 I've noticed this. He hasn't been posting huge numbers yet (lately) but his play has been much better. Seemed he was invisible for most of last season.
Robviously Posted January 20, 2011 Report Posted January 20, 2011 You know, Vanek is suddenly looking better than I remember him playing, even in his 40-goal season. He's driving the net with more determination. He's carrying the puck more effectively. He's SHOOTING more (and they seem to be finding the back of the net, like his recent shootout slapshot). All this means that oppoonents are taking him more seriously. But here's the best part: He seems to be recognizing this, and is dishing the puck to the open guy. He had assists on both goals Tuesday, the last one was a perfect pass to end it in OT. I think he's getting his groove back. He's the most talented forward on the team by far. More than that, the only times the Sabres generate any offense come when either he or Ennis are on the ice. The team is pretty boring to watch otherwise. If it were up to me, I'd take the C off Rivet's sweater, slap it on Vanek's sweater, and then give him as much ice time as he can take. He seems like the type of guy who could step his game up if you challenged him to. Unfortunately, Ruff is married to some really stupid ideas and God forbid we try something different when we currently have the 5th least points in the NHL.
R_Dudley Posted January 20, 2011 Report Posted January 20, 2011 You know, Vanek is suddenly looking better than I remember him playing, even in his 40-goal season. He's driving the net with more determination. He's carrying the puck more effectively. He's SHOOTING more (and they seem to be finding the back of the net, like his recent shootout slapshot). All this means that oppoonents are taking him more seriously. But here's the best part: He seems to be recognizing this, and is dishing the puck to the open guy. He had assists on both goals Tuesday, the last one was a perfect pass to end it in OT. I think he's getting his groove back. Yes I have noticed this as well. He actually has made some other nice passes to open players that have not been converted. One particular one comes to mind to Lead hands Hecht that he predictably flubbed the other night. I think the loss of Roy has brought more of the set up dimension to his game by neccesity.
Stoner Posted January 20, 2011 Report Posted January 20, 2011 He's the most talented forward on the team by far. More than that, the only times the Sabres generate any offense come when either he or Ennis are on the ice. The team is pretty boring to watch otherwise. If it were up to me, I'd take the C off Rivet's sweater, slap it on Vanek's sweater, and then give him as much ice time as he can take. He seems like the type of guy who could step his game up if you challenged him to. Unfortunately, Ruff is married to some really stupid ideas and God forbid we try something different when we currently have the 5th least points in the NHL. Tom (how come more people don't call him that?) is averaging two seconds of shorthanded ice time per game this season. Six seconds last season. Anyone remember what he did the first and last time he got a serious shot at killing penalties? Two shorties in quick succession, and the Sabres' penalty killing didn't suffer a lick. It astounds me -- when I allow myself to be astounded watching a Sabre game -- that the Sabres can be down a goal or two or three in the third period and not get Vanek at least a shift when they are killing penalties. Ruff said the other day the one thing you have to be when killing penalties is smart. A veiled shot at Vanek? I don't know. This is all old territory, but Tom seemed to be upset by lack of shorthanded time a while back (summer of 09, I think). I don't think there's any doubt that there's tension between the two. I would LOVE to see Vanek's career turn around under a new coach who realizes the talent he has on his hands. (That was 09 for sure, now that I think of it. Pittsburgh won the Cup after changing coaches in midseason. On Vanek's own web site, in a Q&A feature, he basically asked himself about the Pens making the move. He said something like, hey, it worked.) Here's an interesting article that gets into the ice time controversy we've talked about lo these many years. http://blackbluegold...at-trick-vanek/
Doohicksie Posted January 21, 2011 Author Report Posted January 21, 2011 The other thing, which last night's game reminded me- he has one of the better slap shots in the league. Last night's goal was kind of a half slap shot, but it still zinged in there. He's used it successfully in the shootout. I think this year he's developing a much better feel for the tools he has and how to use them.
shrader Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 The other thing, which last night's game reminded me- he has one of the better slap shots in the league. Last night's goal was kind of a half slap shot, but it still zinged in there. He's used it successfully in the shootout. I think this year he's developing a much better feel for the tools he has and how to use them. I'd swear that everytime he takes a slapshot, it winds up in the net... even that one time from behind the net. His accuracy is amazing.
JJBuffalo Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 I'd swear that everytime he takes a slapshot, it winds up in the net... even that one time from behind the net. His accuracy is amazing. Maybe next year if Kassian can play in front of the net we could use that slap shot at the point on the PP? Just an idea to get our best player more shots.
nfreeman Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 The other thing, which last night's game reminded me- he has one of the better slap shots in the league. Last night's goal was kind of a half slap shot, but it still zinged in there. He's used it successfully in the shootout. I think this year he's developing a much better feel for the tools he has and how to use them. He also set up that shot with a head fake. That was a great goal. I'm of the opinion that he gets about as much ice time as he earns. I agree though that he is annoyed that he doesn't get more -- that came through to me pretty clearly in his post-game interview last night. I also regard it as a good thing that he's not satisfied with less ice time than he wants.
Stoner Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 He also set up that shot with a head fake. That was a great goal. I'm of the opinion that he gets about as much ice time as he earns. I agree though that he is annoyed that he doesn't get more -- that came through to me pretty clearly in his post-game interview last night. I also regard it as a good thing that he's not satisfied with less ice time than he wants. How much ice time does a two-time 40-goal scorer deserve? I broke down the stats one time and it showed Vanek scored more goals per minute of ice time than Alex Ovechkin.
Stoner Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 Maybe next year if Kassian can play in front of the net we could use that slap shot at the point on the PP? Just an idea to get our best player more shots. Good suggestion. I don't know if having to go to the front of the net and take a beating affects his ice time -- it's been conventional wisdom that it does.
Robviously Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 Maybe next year if Kassian can play in front of the net we could use that slap shot at the point on the PP? Just an idea to get our best player more shots. In the Columbus game (the one where Kaleta hit Dorsett with 25 lefts in a row) we had Luke Adam in front of the net on the powerplay with Vanek to the side and it resulted in two goals. Looked good to me. It's weird to have your best player in a position where he only touches the puck if he's deflecting a shot or slapping at a rebound.
nfreeman Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 How much ice time does a two-time 40-goal scorer deserve? I broke down the stats one time and it showed Vanek scored more goals per minute of ice time than Alex Ovechkin. Cheechoo scored 56 one year and 37 another, and is currently in the AHL. Winning games is very much in Lindy's interests. If more ice time for Tom furthered the goal of winning games, Lindy would give him more. You get what you earn.
Robviously Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 Cheechoo scored 56 one year and 37 another, and is currently in the AHL. Winning games is very much in Lindy's interests. If more ice time for Tom furthered the goal of winning games, Lindy would give him more. You get what you earn. Right, because Lindy never sticks with the wrong players for too long or makes decisions that hurt the team. :rolleyes:
shrader Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 In the Columbus game (the one where Kaleta hit Dorsett with 25 lefts in a row) we had Luke Adam in front of the net on the powerplay with Vanek to the side and it resulted in two goals. Looked good to me. It's weird to have your best player in a position where he only touches the puck if he's deflecting a shot or slapping at a rebound. I'm completely behind the idea of Vanek in front of the net. He's too good there to not keep him in that area. I would have no problem with him moving around a bit though as long as he gets a good amount of time right there in the crease. Hopefully Adam will be ready for full time duty next year and can help out in that role.
JJBuffalo Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 In the Columbus game (the one where Kaleta hit Dorsett with 25 lefts in a row) we had Luke Adam in front of the net on the powerplay with Vanek to the side and it resulted in two goals. Looked good to me. It's weird to have your best player in a position where he only touches the puck if he's deflecting a shot or slapping at a rebound. I remember that game. IMO Vanek sees the ice very well and these last few games have proven that. I know he is one of the best at redirecting shots but moving him to the wing or the point will allow him to make more plays!! This is what's best for the team. Put Broken Hecht in front of the net and Pommers natural slapper should be a eye level!!!
Robviously Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 I remember that game. IMO Vanek sees the ice very well and these last few games have proven that. I know he is one of the best at redirecting shots but moving him to the wing or the point will allow him to make more plays!! This is what's best for the team. Put Broken Hecht in front of the net and Pommers natural slapper should be a eye level!!! At one point it looked like Gaustad would develop into our "in front of the net" guy. That never materialized. I don't know why they wouldn't give McCormick a shot. They probably hate the idea of using a guy they didn't draft who was in the minors last year but he's one of the few players on the team who scores goals. Or they could get really creative and put Myers in front of the net. And try Ennis at the point; he's as good as anyone with the puck, he sees the ice well, and he's fast enough to make up for a mistake.
JJBuffalo Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 At one point it looked like Gaustad would develop into our "in front of the net" guy. That never materialized. I don't know why they wouldn't give McCormick a shot. They probably hate the idea of using a guy they didn't draft who was in the minors last year but he's one of the few players on the team who scores goals. Or they could get really creative and put Myers in front of the net. And try Ennis at the point; he's as good as anyone with the puck, he sees the ice well, and he's fast enough to make up for a mistake. I know Boston uses Chara in front of the net sometimes on the PP. I wouldnt try Myers in front just yet, might to too much too fast. He needs to focus on playing D, but i could see trying McCormick. Why not??
Stoner Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 Cheechoo scored 56 one year and 37 another, and is currently in the AHL. Winning games is very much in Lindy's interests. If more ice time for Tom furthered the goal of winning games, Lindy would give him more. You get what you earn. BTW, Vanek is STILL producing goals more efficiently than Ovi. Ovi is having a down year; Vanek has more goals in far less ice time. I guess the question is: why hasn't Boudreau cut Ovechkin's ice time, made him "earn" it? Is that the approach Lindy would take?
carpandean Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 BTW, Vanek is STILL producing goals more efficiently than Ovi. Ovi is having a down year; Vanek has more goals in far less ice time. I guess the question is: why hasn't Boudreau cut Ovechkin's ice time, made him "earn" it? Is that the approach Lindy would take? With the exception of 2006-07 (Vanek was on our third scoring line, while OV was on their top line), Vanek has never, including this year, outpaced Ovi in G/TOI at even strength. This year, a down one for OV, is the closest, but Ovi is at 0.0176 G/min to Vanek's 0.0143. However, with the exception of 2005-06, Vanek has always outpaced Ovi in G/TOI on the PP. This is actually where Ovi has struggled the most this year. Ovi often stays out there the whole two minutes, while Vanek changes with his unit. If Lindy wants to get more out of Thomas, then perhaps he should consider using him on both units. I would think that he would have to move from in front of the net for some of it or he wouldn't survive. (Note: I didn't look at assists this time, because I'd have to look up PPA vs. ESA, but I seem to remember Ovi outproducing him by a lot there, too.)
Stoner Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 With the exception of 2006-07 (Vanek was on our third scoring line, while OV was on their top line), Vanek has never, including this year, outpaced Ovi in G/TOI at even strength. This year, a down one for OV, is the closest, but Ovi is at 0.0176 G/min to Vanek's 0.0143. However, with the exception of 2005-06, Vanek has always outpaced Ovi in G/TOI on the PP. This is actually where Ovi has struggled the most this year. Ovi often stays out there the whole two minutes, while Vanek changes with his unit. If Lindy wants to get more out of Thomas, then perhaps he should consider using him on both units. I would think that he would have to move from in front of the net for some of it or he wouldn't survive. (Note: I didn't look at assists this time, because I'd have to look up PPA vs. ESA, but I seem to remember Ovi outproducing him by a lot there, too.) Like I said, Vanek is STILL producing goals more efficiently than Ovi. I don't care when in a game they take place, and I'm not talking about assists. Here's another piece of evidence as I put Lindy on trial for attempted murder on a career: Lindy said he would give Tom "elite ice time" in 2009-2010, and continue to give it, as long as Vanek returned "elite play." Fair enough. Want to know on what date Tom first got 19:00 or more of ice time in a game that season? December 3. Tom's reply at the time of Lindy's promise was classic: "I'm prepared for it. If it happens, great. If not, you just shut your mouth and keep working hard."He knew it wasn't going to happen.
nfreeman Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 BTW, Vanek is STILL producing goals more efficiently than Ovi. Ovi is having a down year; Vanek has more goals in far less ice time. I guess the question is: why hasn't Boudreau cut Ovechkin's ice time, made him "earn" it? Is that the approach Lindy would take? With the exception of 2006-07 (Vanek was on our third scoring line, while OV was on their top line), Vanek has never, including this year, outpaced Ovi in G/TOI at even strength. This year, a down one for OV, is the closest, but Ovi is at 0.0176 G/min to Vanek's 0.0143. However, with the exception of 2005-06, Vanek has always outpaced Ovi in G/TOI on the PP. This is actually where Ovi has struggled the most this year. Ovi often stays out there the whole two minutes, while Vanek changes with his unit. If Lindy wants to get more out of Thomas, then perhaps he should consider using him on both units. I would think that he would have to move from in front of the net for some of it or he wouldn't survive. (Note: I didn't look at assists this time, because I'd have to look up PPA vs. ESA, but I seem to remember Ovi outproducing him by a lot there, too.) And here I was about to produce some mealymouthed cliche about "earning it" being more than just producing goals. Here's another piece of evidence as I put Lindy on trial for attempted murder on a career: Lindy said he would give Tom "elite ice time" in 2009-2010, and continue to give it, as long as Vanek returned "elite play." Fair enough. Want to know on what date Tom first got 19:00 or more of ice time in a game that season? December 3. Tom's reply at the time of Lindy's promise was classic: "I'm prepared for it. If it happens, great. If not, you just shut your mouth and keep working hard."He knew it wasn't going to happen. How is that evidence? He said he would give the ice time to Vanek if he earned it. He didn't earn it, so he didn't get it. If you had demonstrated somehow that he did earn it but still didn't get it, that would've been evidence, or at least approaching evidence. I ask again: why would Lindy attempt to murder Tom's career? In any case, I think we'd all like to see Vanek continue to play as much and as well as he did last night.
Robviously Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 How is that evidence? He said he would give the ice time to Vanek if he earned it. He didn't earn it, so he didn't get it. If you had demonstrated somehow that he did earn it but still didn't get it, that would've been evidence, or at least approaching evidence. I ask again: why would Lindy attempt to murder Tom's career? Just to sink this idiotic idea that Lindy Ruff is doling out ice time based solely on who "earns" it.... Average ice time per game for Thomas Vanek: 17:31 Average ice time per game for Jochen Hecht: 17:12 So based on what Ruff has seen this year, and in the past four years, his best guess is that Thomas Vanek deserves 19 more seconds per game on the ice than Jochen Hecht. Nineteen seconds. Well played, Lindy. You have a special eye for hockey talent. <_< EDIT: Here's the link.
waldo Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 Like I said, Vanek is STILL producing goals more efficiently than Ovi. I don't care when in a game they take place, and I'm not talking about assists. Here's another piece of evidence as I put Lindy on trial for attempted murder on a career: Lindy said he would give Tom "elite ice time" in 2009-2010, and continue to give it, as long as Vanek returned "elite play." Fair enough. Want to know on what date Tom first got 19:00 or more of ice time in a game that season? December 3. Tom's reply at the time of Lindy's promise was classic: "I'm prepared for it. If it happens, great. If not, you just shut your mouth and keep working hard."He knew it wasn't going to happen. +1
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