Trade deadline? Are the Sabres buyers or sellers?

[PromoTheRobot]

I'm talking about more than TC and Monty.

 

If you are going to plan for a playoff run I don't think you can move TC. Bear with me here cuz I think as little of TC as the rest of you do so this is hard to say. What does Buffalo have for centers right now? Hecht, Connolly, Goose, Byron. Roy isn't coming back for a playoff run. Are we expecting Adam to be ready for NHL playoff hockey? Heck, are we expecting Byron to be ready for playoff hockey? TC is a joke but he is a legit starting NHL center. Right now, he is the ONLY legit starting NHL center on the roster. Unless he is replaced by another NHL center there is no way that you can expect any sort of playoff success with a center lineup of Hecht, Goose, Byron, and ???

 

And that is the biggest part of my point. Does Mgt shoot for playoffs and lose the return on players like TC or do they start the inevitable now and jettison the guys that don't figure into the future. You know which choice I am advocating. It doesn't mean I hope the Sabres lose. It means I hope they don't lose sight of the promise that next season can hold.

See you are assuming a lot, like a playoff push means keeping Connolly. Like nfreeman said we did okay without Timmy. I never advocated keeping the team intact for the playoffs. In fact I would rather see more kids up from Portland making that push with maybe a veteran pick-up or two to help. But some folks here (deluca) think we have to gut the team down to the zamboni driver. (deluca) That every player (deluca) needs to be run out of town (deluca) along with the coaches (deluca) GM (deluca) and trainers. (deluca)

 

PTR

[shrader]

I'm talking about more than TC and Monty.

 

If you are going to plan for a playoff run I don't think you can move TC. Bear with me here cuz I think as little of TC as the rest of you do so this is hard to say. What does Buffalo have for centers right now? Hecht, Connolly, Goose, Byron. Roy isn't coming back for a playoff run. Are we expecting Adam to be ready for NHL playoff hockey? Heck, are we expecting Byron to be ready for playoff hockey? TC is a joke but he is a legit starting NHL center. Right now, he is the ONLY legit starting NHL center on the roster. Unless he is replaced by another NHL center there is no way that you can expect any sort of playoff success with a center lineup of Hecht, Goose, Byron, and ???

 

And that is the biggest part of my point. Does Mgt shoot for playoffs and lose the return on players like TC or do they start the inevitable now and jettison the guys that don't figure into the future. You know which choice I am advocating. It doesn't mean I hope the Sabres lose. It means I hope they don't lose sight of the promise that next season can hold.

 

There's a big difference between making a push for the playoffs and making a push for a deep playoff run. The veteran presence probably means a lot more in the playoffs themselves than in that late season push (maybe not these specific veterans, but vets in general). A youth movement could very easily lead to a bit of a spark down the stretch (and may have caused that spark already). They probably wouldn't be able to take it much further than that, but at least they'd have some experience under their belt.

 

I guess the big question is what would serve this team better for their future, a first round exit with these vets, or the increased playing time for some of the kids and a potential first round exit of their own.

[nfreeman]

I'm talking about more than TC and Monty.

 

If you are going to plan for a playoff run I don't think you can move TC. Bear with me here cuz I think as little of TC as the rest of you do so this is hard to say. What does Buffalo have for centers right now? Hecht, Connolly, Goose, Byron. Roy isn't coming back for a playoff run. Are we expecting Adam to be ready for NHL playoff hockey? Heck, are we expecting Byron to be ready for playoff hockey? TC is a joke but he is a legit starting NHL center. Right now, he is the ONLY legit starting NHL center on the roster. Unless he is replaced by another NHL center there is no way that you can expect any sort of playoff success with a center lineup of Hecht, Goose, Byron, and ???

 

And that is the biggest part of my point. Does Mgt shoot for playoffs and lose the return on players like TC or do they start the inevitable now and jettison the guys that don't figure into the future. You know which choice I am advocating. It doesn't mean I hope the Sabres lose. It means I hope they don't lose sight of the promise that next season can hold.

But they've done quite well without TC. This really can't be ignored. Vanek and Pommer are playing their best hockey of the season, and I think the fact that they have a grownup in Hecht centering them has a lot to do with it.

 

Also, what would they get for TC? A 2nd-rounder? It's hard to see them getting more than that unless he really sets the league on fire in the next 17 days. How likely is that? So is trading TC for a 2nd-rounder, or deciding not to do so, really such a watershed decision for this franchise? I don't think it is. This isn't a Kovalchuk situation, where the Sabres would get a top prospect, top draft pick, plus a couple of other good NHL players.

 

I take your point about TC being useful for a playoff run, and I don't disagree. I just think (i) he hasn't been an impact player for them this year and (ii) they aren't going to get that much for him in trade, so either outcome (ie keeping him or trading him) isn't really that important to the launch of the TP era.

[Weave]

See you are assuming a lot, like a playoff push means keeping Connolly. Like nfreeman said we did okay without Timmy. I never advocated keeping the team intact for the playoffs. In fact I would rather see more kids up from Portland making that push with maybe a veteran pick-up or two to help. But some folks here (deluca) think we have to gut the team down to the zamboni driver. (deluca) That every player (deluca) needs to be run out of town (deluca) along with the coaches (deluca) GM (deluca) and trainers. (deluca)

 

PTR

 

And you are assuming alot as well. DeLuca isn't the only one advocating removing the GM and coach right away so why single him out? And to the best of my knowledge he has never expressly said the entire team needs to be moved. You are putting alot of words in his mouth here.

 

What kids in Portland do you think are capable of a playoff push? Adam is down because he isn't ready. There are no more wingers to speak of. Gragnani is about it right now. Reality is, playing all the kids most likely = staying home in April.

[Weave]

But they've done quite well without TC. This really can't be ignored. Vanek and Pommer are playing their best hockey of the season, and I think the fact that they have a grownup in Hecht centering them has a lot to do with it.

 

Also, what would they get for TC? A 2nd-rounder? It's hard to see them getting more than that unless he really sets the league on fire in the next 17 days. How likely is that? So is trading TC for a 2nd-rounder, or deciding not to do so, really such a watershed decision for this franchise? I don't think it is. This isn't a Kovalchuk situation, where the Sabres would get a top prospect, top draft pick, plus a couple of other good NHL players.

 

I take your point about TC being useful for a playoff run, and I don't disagree. I just think (i) he hasn't been an impact player for them this year and (ii) they aren't going to get that much for him in trade, so either outcome (ie keeping him or trading him) isn't really that important to the launch of the TP era.

 

It is all specualtion and we'll never be able to prove either of our positions but I think if TC is gone it will impact any playoff series we end up in, if for no other reason than depth when the inevitable injuries show up. And really, if we are talking about playoffs vs rebuilding then we are talking about more than just TC. We are talking about TC, Grier, Niedermayer, Montador, The ©aptain and likely a couple other vets that would be useful to other teams on deadline day. Heck, Butler is an FA too so add him to the mix. With the exception of maybe Rivet and Niedermayer, all of them are useful for collecting resources for the rebuild. Like I have repeated ad nauseum, if there is going to be a playoff run we'll need the likes of Grier, Monty, Nieds, Connolly IMO and the others (Hecht especially) to hang around but then we lose them in the offseason for less to no value back in return.

 

I really believe that playoff expectations and a quick rebuild are mutually exclusive. I haven't seen anything yet out of the kids that leads me to believe they are ready for a playoff series without the likes of our soon to be FA's.

[nfreeman]

It is all specualtion and we'll never be able to prove either of our positions but I think if TC is gone it will impact any playoff series we end up in, if for no other reason than depth when the inevitable injuries show up. And really, if we are talking about playoffs vs rebuilding then we are talking about more than just TC. We are talking about TC, Grier, Niedermayer, Montador, The ©aptain and likely a couple other vets that would be useful to other teams on deadline day. Heck, Butler is an FA too so add him to the mix. With the exception of maybe Rivet and Niedermayer, all of them are useful for collecting resources for the rebuild. Like I have repeated ad nauseum, if there is going to be a playoff run we'll need the likes of Grier, Monty, Nieds, Connolly IMO and the others (Hecht especially) to hang around but then we lose them in the offseason for less to no value back in return.

 

I really believe that playoff expectations and a quick rebuild are mutually exclusive. I haven't seen anything yet out of the kids that leads me to believe they are ready for a playoff series without the likes of our soon to be FA's.

I think we disagree on this. I don't see them getting anything more than a very low draft pick, if that, for any or all of Niedermayer, Grier, Rivet and Butler, so I don't think trading them vs keeping them really matters.

[SwampD]

See you are assuming a lot, like a playoff push means keeping Connolly. Like nfreeman said we did okay without Timmy. I never advocated keeping the team intact for the playoffs. In fact I would rather see more kids up from Portland making that push with maybe a veteran pick-up or two to help. But some folks here (deluca) think we have to gut the team down to the zamboni driver. (deluca) That every player (deluca) needs to be run out of town (deluca) along with the coaches (deluca) GM (deluca) and trainers. (deluca)

 

PTR

You ass-u-me a lot as well. What proof do you have that Deluca's method wouldn't bring a cup to Buffalo sooner?

[Weave]

I think we disagree on this. I don't see them getting anything more than a very low draft pick, if that, for any or all of Niedermayer, Grier, Rivet and Butler, so I don't think trading them vs keeping them really matters.

 

Here is why I think it matters;

 

Most of us have perused the UFA list for the offseason. The way I see it, Buffalo's needs for next year are for a #1 center, #1 RW, and 3rd line wingers. The only #1 center UFA is Richards and he is gonna cost us $7M. I don't see Buffalo holding the winning bid there. Which means there are 2 other options to pick up that #1 C, throw a bunch of cash at Zach Parise AND lose your next 3 years' 1st rd picks, or trade for one. What resources do the Sabres currently own that they can parlay into a #1 center via trade? And do we really want the team to give up that many picks/prospects to lure a #1 center from another team? Well... that's where moving our UFA's and vets at the deadline comes into play. Let's collect 4 or 5 draft picks from the vets we offload. What does it do for us? Individually those picks don't mean much. BUT if we have to give a bunch of picks to NJ for Parise or we trade picks and bluechip prospects for some other center we still have the picks we got for our vets this year to keep replenishing the system.

 

Moving our vets for picks gives us flexibility we don't otherwise have. And it allows our rebuild to go that much more quickly. Without those picks we are limited in what we can do in one offseason. With those picks I truly believe we can fill all of the holes that need fillin'.

[That Aud Smell]

Niedermayer, Grier, Rivet and Butler ... I don't think trading them vs keeping them really matters.

 

Moving our vets for picks gives us flexibility we don't otherwise have.

 

fwiw, no one that freeman cited above is signed for next year. so, other than the low-round picks they might fetch (might), we're in the same position in the off-season regardless of whether we move any of those guys.

 

and we can add montador to freeman's list of vets who will be FA's come the off-season (although, for the money they're paying him this year -- the team is getting really nice value).

[Weave]

 

fwiw, no one that freeman cited above is signed for next year. so, other than the low-round picks they might fetch (might), we're in the same position in the off-season regardless of whether we move any of those guys.

 

and we can add montador to freeman's list of vets who will be FA's come the off-season (although, for the money they're paying him this year -- the team is getting really nice value).

 

How are we in the same position either way? If we keep them we get nothing. If we trade them we get draft picks. Yeah, they might not all be 2nd rounders but they are picks that we can package for other deals. Even low round picks > nothing. IMO Grier and Monty have good value. Rivet is gonna be tougher to get much for. Butler should garner a mid round pick, he can play and contribute in this league and he is young enough to still have upside. Connolly should be worth at least a 2nd rd'er. I reasonably see two 2nd's, a 3rd, a 4th, and a 5th rd pick in that group. That's pretty damned good trade bait. Send those 2nd's and our 1st to NJ as part of a package before the FA deadline for the negotiating rights to Parise. You get the idea.

[X. Benedict]

Here is why I think it matters;

 

Most of us have perused the UFA list for the offseason. The way I see it, Buffalo's needs for next year are for a #1 center, #1 RW, and 3rd line wingers. The only #1 center UFA is Richards and he is gonna cost us $7M. I don't see Buffalo holding the winning bid there. Which means there are 2 other options to pick up that #1 C, throw a bunch of cash at Zach Parise AND lose your next 3 years' 1st rd picks, or trade for one. What resources do the Sabres currently own that they can parlay into a #1 center via trade? And do we really want the team to give up that many picks/prospects to lure a #1 center from another team? Well... that's where moving our UFA's and vets at the deadline comes into play. Let's collect 4 or 5 draft picks from the vets we offload. What does it do for us? Individually those picks don't mean much. BUT if we have to give a bunch of picks to NJ for Parise or we trade picks and bluechip prospects for some other center we still have the picks we got for our vets this year to keep replenishing the system.

 

Moving our vets for picks gives us flexibility we don't otherwise have. And it allows our rebuild to go that much more quickly. Without those picks we are limited in what we can do in one offseason. With those picks I truly believe we can fill all of the holes that need fillin'.

 

Interesting post.

 

What will shape this is the next 15 days. If the Sabres are out of it by Feb 23rd at 10:00 (Atlanta game and 8 games from now) The For Sale Sign is Flying high.

 

Sabres need 18 wins out of the next 31 games to have a strong shot at post-season.

Should they go less than 4-2-2 in the next eight games, it needs to become a league-wide yard sale.

[Weave]

Interesting post.

 

What will shape this is the next 15 days. If the Sabres are out of it by Feb 23rd at 10:00 (Atlanta game and 8 games from now) The For Sale Sign is Flying high.

 

Sabres need 18 wins out of the next 31 games to have a strong shot at post-season.

Should they go less than 4-2-2 in the next eight games, it needs to become a league-wide yard sale.

 

Thank you. At least one other person is willing too have an open mind about it.

[nfreeman]

Here is why I think it matters;

 

Most of us have perused the UFA list for the offseason. The way I see it, Buffalo's needs for next year are for a #1 center, #1 RW, and 3rd line wingers. The only #1 center UFA is Richards and he is gonna cost us $7M. I don't see Buffalo holding the winning bid there. Which means there are 2 other options to pick up that #1 C, throw a bunch of cash at Zach Parise AND lose your next 3 years' 1st rd picks, or trade for one. What resources do the Sabres currently own that they can parlay into a #1 center via trade? And do we really want the team to give up that many picks/prospects to lure a #1 center from another team? Well... that's where moving our UFA's and vets at the deadline comes into play. Let's collect 4 or 5 draft picks from the vets we offload. What does it do for us? Individually those picks don't mean much. BUT if we have to give a bunch of picks to NJ for Parise or we trade picks and bluechip prospects for some other center we still have the picks we got for our vets this year to keep replenishing the system.

 

Moving our vets for picks gives us flexibility we don't otherwise have. And it allows our rebuild to go that much more quickly. Without those picks we are limited in what we can do in one offseason. With those picks I truly believe we can fill all of the holes that need fillin'.

I agree with the theory, but the facts don't fit the theory. Other than TC and Monty, none of the tradeable guys is going to yield draft picks that can be used to package in trade. Between Grier, Niedermayer and Rivet, I think the Sabres could get ONE 5th-round pick. That isn't going to be an essential element of any package for a #1 center.

 

Now, if you include TC and Monty, then you could be looking at two 2nd-rounders and a 5th. Still not enough to get a top-line forward, but if you package them with, say, Derek Roy, you might get a good player back. I'm on board for that.

 

Also, Parise is a LW, not a center. And I think the RFA compensation levels are now such that the Sabres could pay him up to $6MM per year and only have to give up a 1st, 2nd and 3rd. I'd make that deal anytime.

 

Interesting post.

 

What will shape this is the next 15 days. If the Sabres are out of it by Feb 23rd at 10:00 (Atlanta game and 8 games from now) The For Sale Sign is Flying high.

 

Sabres need 18 wins out of the next 31 games to have a strong shot at post-season.

Should they go less than 4-2-2 in the next eight games, it needs to become a league-wide yard sale.

Good post. Right now the Rangers are in #7 and on pace for 91 points, while Carolina at #8 is on pace for 90. For the Sabres to end up with 94 points, and a very good shot at the #7 slot, they'd need 41 points in their last 31 games, or something like 18-8-5. It's tough but doable.

[Lanny]

How are we in the same position either way? If we keep them we get nothing. If we trade them we get draft picks. Yeah, they might not all be 2nd rounders but they are picks that we can package for other deals. Even low round picks > nothing. IMO Grier and Monty have good value. Rivet is gonna be tougher to get much for. Butler should garner a mid round pick, he can play and contribute in this league and he is young enough to still have upside. Connolly should be worth at least a 2nd rd'er. I reasonably see two 2nd's, a 3rd, a 4th, and a 5th rd pick in that group. That's pretty damned good trade bait. Send those 2nd's and our 1st to NJ as part of a package before the FA deadline for the negotiating rights to Parise. You get the idea.

But you wouldn't be getting nothing, you would have those players for the remainder of the season to try to make the playoffs/succeed in the playoffs. I understand the basis of your argument is that even if they make the playoffs they will go nowhere in the playoffs, but I also think that is a losers mentality & would send a poor message to the players that remain on the team. What is the point of playing if you're not going to try to win? Why would Ennis, Myers, Vanek or any of the other players you do plan on keeping around ever put forth the effort if that is how it's going to be operated. Why would Parise want to sign with a team that dumped their players when they were 5 pts out with games in hand? What I think they end up doing is trading Connolly for a pick or picks, and then moving the same or similar picks for a different player. Much like what has been done in the recent past.

 

I also don't think NJ will be letting Parise, their future captain, go anywhere.

[X. Benedict]

 

Good post. Right now the Rangers are in #7 and on pace for 91 points, while Carolina at #8 is on pace for 90. For the Sabres to end up with 94 points, and a very good shot at the #7 slot, they'd need 41 points in their last 31 games, or something like 18-8-5. It's tough but doable.

 

If they can pull that off...It'll be a fun ride. :lol:

 

(At least for some of us. :beer:)

[Weave]

But you wouldn't be getting nothing, you would have those players for the remainder of the season to try to make the playoffs/succeed in the playoffs. I understand the basis of your argument is that even if they make the playoffs they will go nowhere in the playoffs, but I also think that is a losers mentality & would send a poor message to the players that remain on the team. What is the point of playing if you're not going to try to win? Why would Ennis, Myers, Vanek or any of the other players you do plan on keeping around ever put forth the effort if that is how it's going to be operated. Why would Parise want to sign with a team that dumped their players when they were 5 pts out with games in hand? What I think they end up doing is trading Connolly for a pick or picks, and then moving the same or similar picks for a different player. Much like what has been done in the recent past.

 

I also don't think NJ will be letting Parise, their future captain, go anywhere.

 

Teams in every sport make choices like these every year. Take a look at MLB at their trade deadline. I don't see the poor message. It's called strategy.

 

As for NJ and Parise, take a look at their cap numbers for next year. They have around $9M to fill 11 slots in their roster. They are boned. And ripe for another team to pluck Parise from them with an offer sheet. I'm sure they are very aware of how vulnerable they are and would be willing to talk trade.

[X. Benedict]

Teams in every sport make choices like these every year. Take a look at MLB at their trade deadline. I don't see the poor message. It's called strategy.

 

As for NJ and Parise, take a look at their cap numbers for next year. They have around $9M to fill 11 slots in their roster. They are boned. And ripe for another team to pluck Parise from them with an offer sheet. I'm sure they are very aware of how vulnerable they are and would be willing to talk trade.

 

Drew Stafford is a best friend. So it may not be all that far fetched. I love Parise's game.

[Derrico]

Here is why I think it matters;

 

Most of us have perused the UFA list for the offseason. The way I see it, Buffalo's needs for next year are for a #1 center, #1 RW, and 3rd line wingers. The only #1 center UFA is Richards and he is gonna cost us $7M. I don't see Buffalo holding the winning bid there. Which means there are 2 other options to pick up that #1 C, throw a bunch of cash at Zach Parise AND lose your next 3 years' 1st rd picks, or trade for one. What resources do the Sabres currently own that they can parlay into a #1 center via trade? And do we really want the team to give up that many picks/prospects to lure a #1 center from another team? Well... that's where moving our UFA's and vets at the deadline comes into play. Let's collect 4 or 5 draft picks from the vets we offload. What does it do for us? Individually those picks don't mean much. BUT if we have to give a bunch of picks to NJ for Parise or we trade picks and bluechip prospects for some other center we still have the picks we got for our vets this year to keep replenishing the system.

 

Moving our vets for picks gives us flexibility we don't otherwise have. And it allows our rebuild to go that much more quickly. Without those picks we are limited in what we can do in one offseason. With those picks I truly believe we can fill all of the holes that need fillin'.

 

This may not be the correct thread for this comment but we have a much bigger need on defense then forwards IMO. Yes we NEED a legit #1 center, but after that, I'm grabbing someone who can contribute on the back end.

[Lanny]

Teams in every sport make choices like these every year. Take a look at MLB at their trade deadline. I don't see the poor message. It's called strategy.

 

As for NJ and Parise, take a look at their cap numbers for next year. They have around $9M to fill 11 slots in their roster. They are boned. And ripe for another team to pluck Parise from them with an offer sheet. I'm sure they are very aware of how vulnerable they are and would be willing to talk trade.

The cap will likely increase $2-$3 million maybe more, it goes up most years. NJ has enough low salary RFAs to meet the roster requirement with needing only to sign Parise and a backup goalie and probably about $9 million left in cap space. If Brodeur retires it's a non-issue, they'll have tons of room, and if he doesn't it probably still isn't as Parise is probably worth around $7 million per year give or take.

[deluca67]

You ass-u-me a lot as well. What proof do you have that Deluca's method wouldn't bring a cup to Buffalo sooner?

He'll have it as soon as his bottle is full of lightning.

[kwalk]

I think we disagree on this. I don't see them getting anything more than a very low draft pick, if that, for any or all of Niedermayer, Grier, Rivet and Butler, so I don't think trading them vs keeping them really matters.

 

word

[deluca67]

Drew Stafford is a best friend. So it may not be all that far fetched. I love Parise's game.

Good! He can take over Stafford's apartment when Drew gets shipped off in a package deal for a real hockey player.

[shrader]

Teams in every sport make choices like these every year. Take a look at MLB at their trade deadline. I don't see the poor message. It's called strategy.

 

As for NJ and Parise, take a look at their cap numbers for next year. They have around $9M to fill 11 slots in their roster. They are boned. And ripe for another team to pluck Parise from them with an offer sheet. I'm sure they are very aware of how vulnerable they are and would be willing to talk trade.

 

We all know how smart a GM Lou Lamoriello is. He's going to get one hell of a return when he trades Parise this offseason.

[LabattBlue]

LR/DR/LQ/OSP have taken ALL the optimism out of me, which hopefully will come back in 11-12 with tpegs at the helm.

 

In the meantime, I think this house of cards known as the Sabres will fold at some point over the next month, and IMO, here is why...

 

1. No backup goalie.

 

2. Because of #1 Ruff will run Miller into the ground by mid March and this is not the same Miller from last year.

 

3. No center depth at all. Whether they keep Connolly or not, they still have no depth. Hecht, Connolly, Byron, Gaustad & McCormick.

 

 

 

SELL, SELL, SELL, SELL...and then do a EXTREME TEAM/FRONT OFFICE MAKEOVER over the summer.

 

 

PS For all those who want to point at what the Flyers did when they snuck in on the last day of the season, STOP IT. That team was loaded with talent, underachieved all season long and then decided they wanted to play up to their talent level come playoff time...Richards, Carter, Briere, Hartnell, Gagne, Pronger, etc...

[Weave]

[sarcasm]

Why would anyone want the team to lose? :rolleyes:

[/sarcasm]

 

IMO Center depth WILL be the reason the Sabres fail (if they fail). I don't believe that Byron can maintain his current level of play. We have a checking forward centering our top scorer already. When Byron stumbles we can only replace him with another checking forward. And that depth sure isn't going to improve if TC gets moved like most of us expect/want. The PP has been hot but is it sustainable? And will it be enough to overcome the inevitable drop in even strength scoring as the playoffs get closer?

 

I am enjoying the hell out of watching the games but it feels like a house of cards.