Coulda Woulda Shoulda, and Luke Adam...

[nfreeman]

Do you remember who came with that over-the-hill Doug Gilmour? And what the Sabres gave up for him? Right, it was Grosek for Gilmour (a great trade in and of itself) AND JP Dumont.

 

That is fleecing Chicago.

 

How about Gratton for Briere?

 

That is fleecing Phoenix.

 

Warrener for Drury.

 

That is fleecing Calgary.

 

The man made excellent trades--in the first two instances, complete crap for all-stars, and in the last, a decent player for an all-star.

 

His team consisted of Hasek and not much else? No, the team he inherited did. Then he started building. Then Quinn arrived on the scene and construction was halted.

 

Myth, my ass.

Boom! And DeLuca is left to pick up the pieces of his shattered "theory."

[Robviously]

Warrener for Drury.

For that matter, Mike Wilson for Rhett Warrener.

 

That was fleecing Florida.

[SwampD]

Do you remember who came with that over-the-hill Doug Gilmour? And what the Sabres gave up for him? Right, it was Grosek for Gilmour (a great trade in and of itself) AND JP Dumont.

 

That is fleecing Chicago.

 

How about Gratton for Briere?

 

That is fleecing Phoenix.

 

Warrener for Drury.

 

That is fleecing Calgary.

 

The man made excellent trades--in the first two instances, complete crap for all-stars, and in the last, a decent player for an all-star.

 

His team consisted of Hasek and not much else? No, the team he inherited did. Then he started building. Then Quinn arrived on the scene and construction was halted.

 

Myth, my ass.

 

 

Boom! And DeLuca is left to pick up the pieces of his shattered "theory."

Not really. At the time, all of those moves were lateral, just swapping average player for average player (some will say that they were excited to get Drury but I just think that's their revisionist history). It wasn't until later that those trades appear to be better than they were at the time. Some might say that Darcy saw the potential of those guys, others might just say he got lucky. Probably a little of both.

 

But when has Darcy gone after a known commodity and gotten the better of the deal? Actually, when has he ever gone after a known commodity? I don't think "fleecing" is a term you can use in regards to his legacy.

[Eleven]

Not really. At the time, all of those moves were lateral, just swapping average player for average player (some will say that they were excited to get Drury but I just think that's their revisionist history). It wasn't until later that those trades appear to be better than they were at the time. Some might say that Darcy saw the potential of those guys, others might just say he got lucky. Probably a little of both.

 

But when has Darcy gone after a known commodity and gotten the better of the deal? Actually, when has he ever gone after a known commodity? I don't think "fleecing" is a term you can use in regards to his legacy.

 

Drury and Gilmour were known commodities. Getting ANYTHING for Gratton is a huge step up. The guy ended up being an all-star (who's to say that DR didn't see the potential, by the way?), but Gratton for a skate-sharpener would have been just as shrewd a trade.

[RazielSabre]

Drury and Gilmour were known commodities. Getting ANYTHING for Gratton is a huge step up. The guy ended up being an all-star (who's to say that DR didn't see the potential, by the way?), but Gratton for a skate-sharpener would have been just as shrewd a trade.

 

I do remember several petitions for a bag of pucks for Gratton, let alone Drury.

[Eleven]

I do remember several petitions for a bag of pucks for Gratton, let alone Drury.

 

But it was Briere...in any event, it was a great trade.

[Robviously]

Not really. At the time, all of those moves were lateral, just swapping average player for average player (some will say that they were excited to get Drury but I just think that's their revisionist history).

No, I remember a lot of people being really excited to get Drury.

 

It wasn't until later that those trades appear to be better than they were at the time. Some might say that Darcy saw the potential of those guys, others might just say he got lucky. Probably a little of both.

So it's a problem that the trades seem better later than they did the day they were made? [if anything, that should be a compliment.]

 

And you're also saying that if the trades turned out well, that was probably just luck? I somehow doubt that when trades don't work out you're equally willing to chalk it up to "bad luck."

 

But when has Darcy gone after a known commodity and gotten the better of the deal? Actually, when has he ever gone after a known commodity? I don't think "fleecing" is a term you can use in regards to his legacy.

Definitely Drury and Gilmour. And Stu Barnes for Barnaby. And Rhett Warrener for Mike Wilson.

 

Regier's recent history has been bad but the guy did have his moments.

[spndnchz]

Sounds like ur writing his obit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwsKg6LwAuY

[craze]

But when has Darcy gone after a known commodity and gotten the better of the deal? Actually, when has he ever gone after a known commodity? I don't think "fleecing" is a term you can use in regards to his legacy.

 

I think all of those earlier trades are absolutely fleecing and getting the better of the deal. Who gives a crap if we the fans were excited about what we got in return when the trade happened. We definitely had seen enough to know we were giving away crap (I did like Warrener but he was no superstar). The fact that what we got turned out to be great fits is what a GM is paid to do.

 

I have little doubt that Regier has had his hands tied under Golisano. I think he made some excellent moves in the past but certainly none in the last five to six years. Has he lost his touch or never had it under the new system? It looks like it and it is time for a change but you can't deny the really good moves he made in the past.

[SwampD]

Drury and Gilmour were known commodities. Getting ANYTHING for Gratton is a huge step up. The guy ended up being an all-star (who's to say that DR didn't see the potential, by the way?), but Gratton for a skate-sharpener would have been just as shrewd a trade.

Actually, I think I said it.

 

Gilmour was known, but as an aging star on the downside of his career and Drury as a fourth liner who netted some game winners.

 

No, I remember a lot of people being really excited to get Drury.

 

 

So it's a problem that the trades seem better later than they did the day they were made? [if anything, that should be a compliment.]

 

And you're also saying that if the trades turned out well, that was probably just luck? I somehow doubt that when trades don't work out you're equally willing to chalk it up to "bad luck."

 

Definitely Drury and Gilmour. And Stu Barnes for Barnaby. And Rhett Warrener for Mike Wilson.

 

Regier's recent history has been bad but the guy did have his moments.

What did all these blockbuster trades get the Sabres besides some early exits and missinfg the playoffs altogether? Deluca's right, we really need to raise the bar.

[Robviously]

What did all these blockbuster trades get the Sabres besides some early exits and missinfg the playoffs altogether? Deluca's right, we really need to raise the bar.

Let's see, we made the Eastern Conference Finals four times and made it to the Stanley Cup Finals once. That's not great for 14 years of work but it's not horrible either when you consider he was working for John "I'm in jail now" Rigas and Tom "I forgot I own the team" Golisano for most of that time.

 

I'm ready for a new GM too but I'm not going to pretend that Regier never did anything right. And I really wonder about how much he was able to do given the team's leadership.

 

Way to push the goalposts back, BTW. You asked for examples, I provided them, and your response was basically "So what?"

[nfreeman]

What did all these blockbuster trades get the Sabres besides some early exits and missinfg the playoffs altogether? Deluca's right, we really need to raise the bar.

They got the Sabres an elite, exciting team that should've been in the Cup hunt every year but instead was dismantled through sheer incompetence. The $64 question is whether that incompetence was DR's or TG's/LQ's.

[SwampD]

Let's see, we made the Eastern Conference Finals four times and made it to the Stanley Cup Finals once. That's not great for 14 years of work but it's not horrible either when you consider he was working for John "I'm in jail now" Rigas and Tom "I forgot I own the team" Golisano for most of that time.

 

I'm ready for a new GM too but I'm not going to pretend that Regier never did anything right. And I really wonder about how much he was able to do given the team's leadership.

 

Way to push the goalposts back, BTW. You asked for examples, I provided them, and your response was basically "So what?"

I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you, but my so-called "so what" was a way to ask, were these players really that good if they weren't even good enough to make it into the playoffs at times?

 

Most of what I wrote was based on Darcy's alleged "fleecing" of other teams. I don't think he did. He got some good players, he got som bad players. You could even say that he got fleeced for what he got in return for Campbell, Drury and Briere.

[Eleven]

I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you, but my so-called "so what" was a way to ask, were these players really that good if they weren't even good enough to make it into the playoffs at times?

 

Most of what I wrote was based on Darcy's alleged "fleecing" of other teams. I don't think he did. He got some good players, he got som bad players. You could even say that he got fleeced for what he got in return for Campbell, Drury and Briere.

 

You could, but my argument is that someone else was pulling the strings by then. (And not one of those guys has proven to be worth the amount they commanded in free agency, either, IMO.)

[X. Benedict]

Has anyone actually taken a close look at the Maple Leafs? They are in excellent cap shape in the years to come.

 

And seriously, is there anyone here that wouldn't trade pretty much anyone off of the Sabres roster for Phaneuf, Kessel (on pace for 35 goals) and Versteeg? I'll take that "core" over anything the Sabres have to offer. They have some solid young players and two huge chips to play (Kaberle & Giguere) at this years trade deadline.

 

If the Leafs have one huge advantage over the Sabres it is that the Leafs front office does not operate under the delusion that their team is a contender right now. I would expect the Leafs to be busy at this years trade deadline converting vets into assets while Regier and the Sabres do nothing relevant. The Sabres should be poised to dump Conolly, Hecht, Grier , Rivet, Neids, Leopold and should be ready to actually consider trade offers that come in on any player.

 

 

I think Burke is as delusional as they come with his bluster, he came to Toronto in 2008. He's three years into a failed project. As for Kaberle and Giguere....they have no-trades. Kaberle has never shown a willingness to move it...plus anybody trading for them would have to take salary back.

 

Also I think Nadri, D'Amigo, and McKegg aren't bad prospects...but far from changing anything up the QEW. None of their moves ever make sense to me.

[carpandean]

You could even say that he got fleeced for what he got in return for Campbell, Drury and Briere.

Unless you are talking about trading their negotiating rights away, the last two are fair to include. They were co-Captains of the league-leading team at the deadline; no GM would have traded them away. The kept them, because the chance at the Cup was worth it. Also, while I'm not convinced that LQ has been keeping Darcy from making any worthwhile moves, I'm pretty sure that TG has put the Drury situation on himself; specifically his belief that it would be best to have one-year contracts for everyone (something that's not theoretically wrong, but is definitely not how things were/are done in the NHL.)

[deluca67]

Do you remember who came with that over-the-hill Doug Gilmour? And what the Sabres gave up for him? Right, it was Grosek for Gilmour (a great trade in and of itself) AND JP Dumont.

 

That is fleecing Chicago.

 

How about Gratton for Briere?

 

That is fleecing Phoenix.

 

Warrener for Drury.

 

That is fleecing Calgary.

 

The man made excellent trades--in the first two instances, complete crap for all-stars, and in the last, a decent player for an all-star.

 

His team consisted of Hasek and not much else? No, the team he inherited did. Then he started building. Then Quinn arrived on the scene and construction was halted.

 

Myth, my ass.

JP Dumont was a throw-in, that the Sabres gave up on, that ended up having his best years after the Sabres let him go for nothing. So if you want to give Darcy a +1 for acquiring him you need to give a -1 for letting him go for nothing.

 

The Briere/Gratton deal was an exchange of each others garbage. Briere was playing himself out of the NHL at that point. The Sabres took a chance and for once it paid off. Again, with Regier, every plus comes with a negative. Briere left and the Sabres received zero compensation.

 

Warrener/Drury was the last big hockey trade this team made. Warrener averaged 24:05 minutes in the 2004 playoffs for a team that went to the Stanley Cup Finals. So the word "FLEECED" would not apply. The Sabres got a half of a captain and the Flames got a trip to the Finals. Seems both teams did well. As we all know Drury walked away from the Sabres.

 

The team of the late 90's were all Hasek. After Hasek, this team made the playoffs three out of eight seasons. Here is an interesting stat about the Regier regime that I don't think many realize. If the Sabres miss the playoffs this season it will be six out of 9 seasons. Previous to Regier this franchise missed the playoffs six out of twenty-seven seasons.

 

The myth of Regier remains just that, a myth.

[deluca67]

I think Burke is as delusional as they come with his bluster, he came to Toronto in 2008. He's three years into a failed project. As for Kaberle and Giguere....they have no-trades. Kaberle has never shown a willingness to move it...plus anybody trading for them would have to take salary back.

 

Also I think Nadri, D'Amigo, and McKegg aren't bad prospects...but far from changing anything up the QEW. None of their moves ever make sense to me.

Kaberle and Giguere are both UFA's. As long as the destination is a playoff bound team I doubt they will have any trouble moving them.

[deluca67]

This is crazy. Myers, Vanek and Roy are far superior to those 3 (and Vanek and Roy aren't even that good). Versteeg has been a huge disappointment for the Leafs. Also, Kaberle has a NTC, and Burke is on record as saying that he does not ask players to waive NTCs.

 

And while the Leafs don't have that much in committed cap expenditures for next year, that is because they only have 6 forwards and 4 defensemen (2 of which are grossly overpaid) under contract. Their "young players" have also been disappointing, since Kadri can't seem to stick at the NHL level and Schenn has taken a step back.

 

The Sabres will be better than the Leafs this year, next year and the year after that.

 

Also: why do you want the Sabres to dump Leopold? He's a pretty solid defenseman at a reasonable contract. Pommer is the one they should look to unload (in addition to the others you mentioned).

Schenn may have taken a "step back" that happens to every young blueliner. Just look at Myers, he is nowhere near the player he was last year. You have to love Schenn's physical game. He has more hits at 129 this season than the top two Sabres blueliners combined.

 

I would dump Leopold in a heartbeat. He's not that "solid" of a defense-man but he is having a career year offensively. His value will never be much higher. The focus needs to be turning those players that do not have long futures with the Sabres into prospects or picks.

[X. Benedict]

Kaberle and Giguere are both UFA's. As long as the destination is a playoff bound team I doubt they will have any trouble moving them.

 

Kaberle has never shown a willingness to move his NTC.

 

Giguere might be a better chance.....but what playoff bound team is going to ship back $6.5 million worth of players when they probably already have a tested goaltender.

 

I don't think it is a good hand to hold, myself. But we'll know in 6 weeks. Time could prove Burke a genius, but I'm betting against it.

[deluca67]

Kaberle has never shown a willingness to move his NTC.

 

Giguere might be a better chance.....but what playoff bound team is going to ship back $6.5 million worth of players when they probably already have a tested goaltender.

 

I don't think it is a good hand to hold, myself. But we'll know in 6 weeks. Time could prove Burke a genius, but I'm betting against it.

I would be shocked if Kaberle wouldn't waive his NTC for a couple of months for a chance to play in the playoffs.

 

Giguere? A team will only have take on a prorated amount. Probably around $2.5-$3 mil. A lot of teams have that cap space.

[X. Benedict]

I would be shocked if Kaberle wouldn't waive his NTC for a couple of months for a chance to play in the playoffs.

 

Giguere? A team will only have take on a prorated amount. Probably around $2.5-$3 mil. A lot of teams have that cap space.

 

 

A fair point on prorating Giguere, by why would a buyer want him? (assuming a buyer is a playoff team)...that's still a boatload of coin for someone having a bad year. A team would have to be desperate to buy high for a guy under .9 Save and playing backup minutes.

 

Most likely Kaberle stays put and waits for July 1, IMO.

[deluca67]

A fair point on prorating Giguere, by why would a buyer want him? (assuming a buyer is a playoff team)...that's still a boatload of coin for someone having a bad year. A team would have to be desperate to buy high for a guy under .9 Save and playing backup minutes.

 

Most likely Kaberle stays put and waits for July 1, IMO.

Giguere has a playoff rep. Look at a team like the Lighting. They have key offensive stars that can take over any series. They have almost $10 mil in cap space and a dire need for a goalie. They would be a perfect fit for a short term rent-a-goalie with Stanley Cup experience.

[X. Benedict]

Giguere has a playoff rep. Look at a team like the Lighting. They have key offensive stars that can take over any series. They have almost $10 mil in cap space and a dire need for a goalie. They would be a perfect fit for a short term rent-a-goalie with Stanley Cup experience.

 

Interesting idea, but Tampa just got Roloson a week ago. I don't see them picking up Giggy in the next 5 weeks without a major injury.

 

Giggy might get moved.....I just don't think Burke has a strong hand.

[nfreeman]

Giguere has a playoff rep. Look at a team like the Lighting. They have key offensive stars that can take over any series. They have almost $10 mil in cap space and a dire need for a goalie. They would be a perfect fit for a short term rent-a-goalie with Stanley Cup experience.

TB just traded for Roloson, who shut out the Caps in his 1st game as a Bolt. It's highly unlikely that they'd trade for Giggy.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if someone traded for Giggy, but I would be surprised if the Leafs got more than, say, a 3rd round pick for him.

 

Burke seems like overall a good guy, but well over-hyped as a GM. It appears that you don't regard the Kessel trade as a debacle for the Leafs -- that puts you into a pretty small minority.