rtconner Posted March 13, 2006 Report Posted March 13, 2006 So the sabres have scored 220 goals and have 180 against. Yet Chris Drury as a -14 plus/minus rating. How does that happen? They guy has 48 points of his own, how in the world does that factor in to give him that rating. Does plus/minus mean anything in regards to statistics at all?
Rabbit151 Posted March 13, 2006 Report Posted March 13, 2006 Drury sees a lot of PP time. When you are on the ice for a goal on the PP, you do not get a + or - . However, if you get a Short-Handed goal against while on the PP, you get a -2. 16 Short-handed goal against has hurt a lot of the Sabres +/- stats.
Saber61 Posted March 13, 2006 Report Posted March 13, 2006 Drury sees a lot of PP time. When you are on the ice for a goal on the PP, you do not get a + or - . However, if you get a Short-Handed goal against while on the PP, you get a -2. 16 Short-handed goal against has hurt a lot of the Sabres +/- stats. wow i didn't know that... no wonder brian campbells +/- is that bad.
Taro T Posted March 13, 2006 Report Posted March 13, 2006 Drury sees a lot of PP time. When you are on the ice for a goal on the PP, you do not get a + or - . However, if you get a Short-Handed goal against while on the PP, you get a -2. 16 Short-handed goal against has hurt a lot of the Sabres +/- stats. Being on the ice for a SH against is only a -1.
X. Benedict Posted March 13, 2006 Report Posted March 13, 2006 Being on the ice for a SH against is only a -1. That's what I thought. My head was spinning there for a second.
Rabbit151 Posted March 13, 2006 Report Posted March 13, 2006 Are you sure? Maybe my old hockey coaches kept stats that way to make us work harder on the PP. I always thought it was + or - 1 for an even-strength goal, +2 for a short-hander, -2 for a short-hander against and nothing for a PP goal for or against. I wonder if that was the way it was when I was a kid and that perhaps it changed.Hmmm...
Rabbit151 Posted March 13, 2006 Report Posted March 13, 2006 Yep. I checked out some box scores, and it is just a +/- 1 in short-handed situations. I wonder if it was always that way..? Like I said, when I played years ago, I'm sure we counted it as 2.
Taro T Posted March 14, 2006 Report Posted March 14, 2006 Yep. I checked out some box scores, and it is just a +/- 1 in short-handed situations. I wonder if it was always that way..? Like I said, when I played years ago, I'm sure we counted it as 2. I don't recall the NHL ever double counting it. It sounds to me like a good motivational tool though.
Bring Back Sanderson Posted March 14, 2006 Report Posted March 14, 2006 +/- is an incredibly overrated statistic that doesn't even come close to measuring a hockey player's value
gregkash Posted March 14, 2006 Report Posted March 14, 2006 as per usual i'm wrong. "When an even-strength or shorthanded goal is scored, every player on the ice for the team scoring the goal is credited with a plus. Every player on the ice for the team scored against gets a minus. A player's overall total is calculated by subtracting the minuses from the pluses. A high plus total is taken to suggest that a guy is a good defensive player." http://proicehockey.about.com/library/blqu..._plus-minus.htm
hopeleslyobvious Posted March 14, 2006 Report Posted March 14, 2006 +/- is an incredibly overrated statistic that doesn't even come close to measuring a hockey player's value I disagree. I think while it has it's flaws it's the best measuring stick we have for certain types of players...such as defensive defenseman.
Bring Back Sanderson Posted March 14, 2006 Report Posted March 14, 2006 I'm trying to think of recent examples of Sabres defensive defensemen that meet the criteria, and whether or not +/- is indicative of a player's worth. Darryl Shannon was a +77 over the course of his final 3 seasons in Buffalo...obviously that implies he was a really good player. After he left Buffalo he played a grand total of 83 more NHL games for 3 different teams and was a combined -31 in those stints. He was out of the NHL by age 32. His defense partner, Mike Wilson, was +49 in 4 years as a Sabre, and managed just 105 more career NHL games with a +/- rating of -6 with 3 NHL teams. He was out of the NHL by age 27. Alexei Zhitnik doesn't fit the term defensive defenseman to me, he's more of a two-way player, but still in 10 years in Buffalo he was a plus player only twice. Yet I'm sure he led the team's defense in minutes per game each year, and in most of those years he was a minus player on a +.500 team. I'm not trying to say that a player who's a -45 in one year can be considered a great defensive player, or that a guy who's a +30 is a defensive liability. It was stated that it's a stat with it's flaws, but I think that's understating the case. -It completely ignores the special teams contributions or flaws of a player aside from relatively rare shorthanded goals which is ridiculous since anywhere between 25% to 40% of a game can be played on special teams. -Obviously it doesn't factor in such variables as defense partner, goaltender, goaltender against, degree of offensive talent of other 4 guys on your team, whether or not your forwards backcheck, whether or not the opposition's forwards backcheck, etc, etc. Basically any math boils down to the relationship between a control and a variable, and a stat can't be significant if there are dozens of variables. It's just a dumb stat. If my checking line plays an entire season against the #1 line of the opposing team and all three guys finish -10, I'd be thrilled that over the course of the year they were able to play that evenly against lines that were designed to score. Similarly, if in theory Lydman finishes +5 playing primarily with defensive forwards against another team's #1 line every night, and, say Campbell finishes +20 playing when his team's best scoring line is out there against a low talent checking line, it would be ridiculous to say Campbell's a better defender. Sorry about the bloated essay, but it's just one stat that somehow finds a way to piss me off...it's kind of pathetic actually.
X. Benedict Posted March 14, 2006 Report Posted March 14, 2006 I think plus/minus is only a stat that is relational inside a team in a given season. It has no relative meaning across seasons or across teams in my opinion.
Rock DJ Posted March 15, 2006 Report Posted March 15, 2006 While +/- stats have been around a long time, it really started being used for arbitration purposes. In most cases, agents started pushing to point to the strengths of defensive defensemen. They sure couldn't use point production, so they needed some kind of edge. Just wait until this summer. McKee's agent will be going nuts over the blocked shots stat. In cases like Shannon and Wilson, they normally played more against the checking lines, while the top D, like Zhitnik was always out there against the top forwards in the league.
Taro T Posted March 15, 2006 Report Posted March 15, 2006 I think plus/minus is only a stat that is relational inside a team in a given season. It has no relative meaning across seasons or across teams in my opinion. I agree for the most part. I think it also has a limited application in looking at how particular players play against others, say how the checking line of team x does against team y's 1st liners vs. how team z's checking line does against y's best.
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