WJC Discussion Thread

[carpandean]

buffalonians were content to have canadians buy 2/3 of all tickets sold. perhaps more telling, canadians out-numbered americans by a ~10-1 margin when canada played the u.s. on american soil in a single-elimination setting.

You are, of course, ignoring the financial aspects. Perhaps it wasn't "content to have" and was rather "unable to prevent" due to the price of the tickets. There's a reason that Toronto/Montreal games are Gold or Platinum level Sabres games. Financially, there is a larger population within Toronto, etc., that can afford not only the higher ticket prices, but also the cost of traveling.

 

In addition, while Buffalo was the host city, you are still measuring US vs. Canada. Hockey is still bigger in Canada than the US (not just Buffalo, but the whole country) and a larger portion of their national pride/strength seems to hinge on their international hockey performance (Olympics, Worlds, World Juniors, etc.) How many Canadian fans were willing to travel from Hamilton, Toronto (5M people), Montreal (3.6M), Ottawa, Quebec City and other smaller towns/cities in the area to support Canada? How many fans from the area outside of Buffalo and maybe Rochester were willing to make the trip to support the US?

 

It may support the assertion that Buffalo is a small-market team (in terms of local population and financial strength), but there are too many other factors involved to conclude that Buffalo is not a hockey market. Unfortunately, it's hard to imagine a scenario that would allow for an accurate measure of that. Even if the tickets were given away for free, the Canada vs. US factor would still factor in.

[That Aud Smell]

Perhaps it wasn't "content to have" and was rather "unable to prevent" due to the price of the tickets.

fair point.

 

 

but there are too many other factors involved to conclude that Buffalo is not a hockey market.

i don't think there's any doubt that buffalo is a hockey market. the question was whether it can credibly lay claim to being a "hockey town."

 

more and more, i like the point that swamp makes about buffalo effectively being part of southern ontario for many intents and purposes. urban planners and academics of late have posited that economic development should be viewed in terms of mega-regions and that the mega-region of tor-buff-chester is one of the world's largest and most promising mega-regions.

[Stoner]

Define Hockey Town?

 

It's like pornography. You know it when you see it. And I doubt that the American players saw it. I bet a lot of them are bitter and confused by the lack of support for them on their own soil, in what they probably heard was a "hockey town." Carp brings in the issue of Buffalo being a statistically poor town. Not to channel Ghost here, but there are plenty of people in a market the size of Buffalo who can afford tickets. I just don't think a lot of folks cared that much.

 

I certainly didn't. I think that necessarily disqualifies me as a great hockey fan. I'm a great Sabres fan, and a follower of the NHL, and that's about it.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

It's like pornography. You know it when you see it. And I doubt that the American players saw it. I bet a lot of them are bitter and confused by the lack of support for them on their own soil, in what they probably heard was a "hockey town." Carp brings in the issue of Buffalo being a statistically poor town. Not to channel Ghost here, but there are plenty of people in a market the size of Buffalo who can afford tickets. I just don't think a lot of folks cared that much.

 

I certainly didn't. I think that necessarily disqualifies me as a great hockey fan. I'm a great Sabres fan, and a follower of the NHL, and that's about it.

 

Here's how I see it. Granted I did not watch 1 minute since I don't have the vaunted NHL Network.

 

The Sabres marketed the daylights out of this in hopes to have their season ticket base buy into the idea. Since we have already established that season ticket holders account for 90% of the revenues the Sabres take in, it was critical that they believed this was a "happening" event.

 

What did we see happen? Months after season ticket holders were asked to shell out for the entire tournament, and after individual games and day passes were on sale for a bit, the bean counters and snakeoil salesmen at HSBC offered 50% off ALL TICKETS!!! They also ran cross promotions with local business on select games. These were recent developments after pumping how exciting this tournament was going to be for over a year.

 

 

Now if I was a season ticket holder and paid for the full tournament, which included probably 12 games there was no way I could see during working hours, I would be livid at the 50% discount. But....that is what you should have come to expect from Quinn and co. Given the attendance to USA games which correct me if I am wrong, was 12,000 or so?....I would take a stab that season ticket holders probably made up 8,000 tickets for the entire event. You probably had rabid Canadians who don't have Sabres seats take on another 1500-2000 for the entire tournament...another 1,000 or so giveaways to participants and select sponsors...and given the attendance figures for Sabres games themselves where they are only able to draw an average of 2,000 "independant" fans.....maybe another 1,000 or so seats there. Again these are estimates, but that was your Hockeytown Fanbase for the majority of the tournament.

 

Of course the medal game and what turned out to be the US/CAN playoff were going to get bought up....and hopefully season ticket holders who were hoping to see a few games and get their money back were able to do so. But as far as a Hockeytown goes.....again, probably half of your season ticket holders who already have allowed for a giant cashout by TG/LQ bought into it....and a few others.

 

As for myself, I was downtown last week before a "no-name" game and if I had time I would have handed a scalper a 10 spot and hung out in the bar at the arena watching the game just to take in some action. If tickets were say....$30-50 and available last night, I would have gone as well. But as far as considering this a must see event....even as what I would consider a very good hockey fan....I had zero drive to watch. It was a nice little niche event for the area to take in a few $$ with easy access for our Canadian neighbors to take advantage of.

 

I would consider something like the World Cup in soccer or the Olympics...or even the Big Bowl games this week much more compeling than this tournament. Not to take it away from anyone who really loves or cares about it. This is just my opinion.

[deluca67]

i think this is a very worthwhile topic of debate.

 

as we were walking toward the train last night, someone in our crew posited an SAT analogy along these lines:

 

IIHF : BUFFALO :: NHL : TAMPA BAY/PHOENIX/NASHVILLE [ETC.]

 

/pauses for blow-back flaming.

 

there's been a great deal of interest invested in the branding of buffalo as a great (elite?) hockey town, but, in view of the 2011 world juniors, we obviously fall well short when compared with any canadian city, large or small.

 

sure we have a proud history of supporting an nhl franchise, but when the world's premier junior tournament came to town, buffalonians were content to have canadians buy 2/3 of all tickets sold. perhaps more telling, canadians out-numbered americans by a ~10-1 margin when canada played the u.s. on american soil in a single-elimination setting.

 

my question is this: what would happen if detroit hosted the world juniors? i wonder if canadian fans would take over detroit in much the same way they did buffalo. i sort of think they would. perhaps not to the same extent, but i think you'd see the same dynamic.

 

fwiw: wikipedia currently projects our tournament attendance at 278k. when the tournament was hosted by north dakota and minnesota in 2005, they had 193k in attendance -- so we're 80k to the better of that (and maybe still counting). still, we have all of southern ontario on which to draw.

How many Red Wing season ticket holders are Canadian?

[That Aud Smell]

Now if I was a season ticket holder and paid for the full tournament, which included probably 12 games there was no way I could see during working hours, I would be livid at the 50% discount.

i was the guest of one such season ticket holder. he wasn't angry with the sabres; he was disappointed in himself for being so easily taken in. caveat emptor, i say.

 

Given the attendance to USA games which correct me if I am wrong, was 12,000 or so?....I would take a stab that season ticket holders probably made up 8,000 tickets for the entire event.

not sure i follow you there. i attended several games (some involving just the u.s., some involving just canada, some involving neither). canadians were, by an order of magnitude, in the large and conspicuous majority of all games that i attended. so, when the u.s. played germany, the house was probably around 12-13k (that's a guess), but i think a great many of those fans were canadians who weren't sabres STH's and were just there to see some hockey, scout their rival.

 

How many Red Wing season ticket holders are Canadian?

that would be a nice bit of information to have.

 

do we know the #/percentage of sabres STH's that are canadian? i guessed at it elsewhere as being in the 3000 range, but that was just a guess.

[Eleven]

Here's how I see it. Granted I did not watch 1 minute since I don't have the vaunted NHL Network.

 

The Sabres marketed the daylights out of this in hopes to have their season ticket base buy into the idea. Since we have already established that season ticket holders account for 90% of the revenues the Sabres take in, it was critical that they believed this was a "happening" event.

 

What did we see happen? Months after season ticket holders were asked to shell out for the entire tournament, and after individual games and day passes were on sale for a bit, the bean counters and snakeoil salesmen at HSBC offered 50% off ALL TICKETS!!! They also ran cross promotions with local business on select games. These were recent developments after pumping how exciting this tournament was going to be for over a year.

 

 

Now if I was a season ticket holder and paid for the full tournament, which included probably 12 games there was no way I could see during working hours, I would be livid at the 50% discount. But....that is what you should have come to expect from Quinn and co. Given the attendance to USA games which correct me if I am wrong, was 12,000 or so?....I would take a stab that season ticket holders probably made up 8,000 tickets for the entire event. You probably had rabid Canadians who don't have Sabres seats take on another 1500-2000 for the entire tournament...another 1,000 or so giveaways to participants and select sponsors...and given the attendance figures for Sabres games themselves where they are only able to draw an average of 2,000 "independant" fans.....maybe another 1,000 or so seats there. Again these are estimates, but that was your Hockeytown Fanbase for the majority of the tournament.

 

Of course the medal game and what turned out to be the US/CAN playoff were going to get bought up....and hopefully season ticket holders who were hoping to see a few games and get their money back were able to do so. But as far as a Hockeytown goes.....again, probably half of your season ticket holders who already have allowed for a giant cashout by TG/LQ bought into it....and a few others.

 

As for myself, I was downtown last week before a "no-name" game and if I had time I would have handed a scalper a 10 spot and hung out in the bar at the arena watching the game just to take in some action. If tickets were say....$30-50 and available last night, I would have gone as well. But as far as considering this a must see event....even as what I would consider a very good hockey fan....I had zero drive to watch. It was a nice little niche event for the area to take in a few $$ with easy access for our Canadian neighbors to take advantage of.

 

I would consider something like the World Cup in soccer or the Olympics...or even the Big Bowl games this week much more compeling than this tournament. Not to take it away from anyone who really loves or cares about it. This is just my opinion.

 

Do you mean Sabres season ticket holders? I'm unaware of any discount or any effort to market specifically to Sabres season ticket holders. As someone else, in this thread or elsewhere, stated, it's likely that the Sabres were paid a fixed fee to host. I think the IIHF took care of most of the marketing, etc.

 

Not sure where this all is headed, anyway. It's been a great tournament. While attendance records weren't set (no way possible to break Ottawa's 450K from a few years ago), a TON of tickets were sold.

 

Mostly to Canadians, of course; that's why the tournament was here and not in Chicago. That's why the tournament is in North America by far more often than it is in Europe. Canadians are nuts for hockey.

 

That doesn't mean that WNYers aren't or that Buffalo isn't a good hockey town. But we're completely outnumbered by an entire nation over the border.

 

One caller to GR this morning--a Canadian--noted that while Buffalo is one of the best hockey markets in the world (his words) as shown by our support for the Sabres and lower-level hockey, Americans simply have nothing like the Canadian passion for the game. While I think he's overstating it a bit--there are people here who are just as passionate about hockey as most Canadians are, and of course, there are some Canadians who could care less, I get his point and I think he's largely correct.

 

If gridiron football were played world-wide, and if there was a tournament, you might see something like this kind of passion. Right now, we see it in America on the state level in other parts of the country, with college ball. These points also were made this morning on the same show.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Aud Smell....yeah, you know what you are getting from the Sabres brass. That is why I have linked in the lack of support in attendance for the Sabres themselves by other than season ticket holders. Hopefully it is all moot with Pegula coming in and a clean slate. As a hockey fan and a traditional Sabres fan, I am planning on getting back into tickets assuming things become Kosher. I just couldn't give my money to a group whom I feel were exposed for the bastages they are.

 

As for the Canadians overwhelming the arena....maybe only 3-5K were sold to American season ticket holders with almost all of the Canadian season ticket holders buying as well. I just think that as far as the question of Buffalo being a hockey hotbed for this particular event....eh? Of course we can't match Canada's passion.

 

Eleven- You bet your bippy the Sabres had money to make on this. They have been pimping on every broadcast, ran those promotions, etc. An example of where they had nothing to do with an event were the NCAA's in Bball. You can see the difference as there was no promotion, a skeleton staff at the arena, and general indifference.

 

Again, everyone had fun and that's that.

[That Aud Smell]

One caller to GR this morning--a Canadian--noted that while Buffalo is one of the best hockey markets in the world (his words) as shown by our support for the Sabres and lower-level hockey, Americans simply have nothing like the Canadian passion for the game.

 

If gridiron football were played world-wide, and if there was a tournament, you might see something like this kind of passion. Right now, we see it in America on the state level in other parts of the country, with college ball.

both good points.

[Two or less]

I wanted to throw this one out there: Does this tournament shoot down the idea that Buffalo is a great hockey town? Do that many locals really care?

 

Not at all.

 

The WJC only matters in one place- Canada. The fans that are flocking to the rink are not just Canadians who just happen to live right across the border and have a 10 minute commute to the games. The people going are coming from all over Ontario. Some even as far as Quebec and Ottawa. Many from Toronto or north of Toronto. It's a national craze for these people to support youth Canadian hockey. For Americans, it is not. The prices set, makes these games still look pretty good for people who do travel to Montreal games or Maple Leafs. However, for Sabres fans, it's like going to a gold Sabres game to watch 19-20 year olds.

 

When Boston hosted the games in 1996, nobody came. Minnesota in 1982 and also had very poor showing. US Hockey is trying to put games near Canadian border because it makes financial sense. Last games were played in North Dakota and next likely host USA host is Detroit.

 

The ticket prices for ALL 21 games in HSBC Arena were set for $499. The same package, in 2012 games costs $390. The people who set the ticket prices priced the fans out. It's that simple. It has nothing to do with hockey loyalty or passion for the sport. Any single city WORLD WIDE except in Canada can not support the games itself as in getting "home ice" but they need the region to help out. Stories of that guy on here from Indy are very rare. Majority of the Americans in the building are Buffalo people. Not fans who get into a car are drive from Syracuse, Rochester, Erie, even Columbus, Ohio, and maybe as far as Albany. It's locals. Canadians who are coming are much different. They are from all over Ontario.

[Two or less]

 

fwiw: wikipedia currently projects our tournament attendance at 278k. when the tournament was hosted by north dakota and minnesota in 2005, they had 193k in attendance -- so we're 80k to the better of that (and maybe still counting). still, we have all of southern ontario on which to draw.

 

As of New Years Eve, they had just over 310,000 tickets sold.

 

They will be very close to breaking Vancouver's attendance.

[Eleven]

As of New Years Eve, they had just over 310,000 tickets sold.

 

They will be very close to breaking Vancouver's attendance.

 

And ND/Minn. have Winnipeg, which, we're constantly reminded, is a hockey market starved for the product.

[That Aud Smell]

Not at all.

 

The WJC only matters in one place- Canada. ...

 

As of New Years Eve, they had just over 310,000 tickets sold.

 

They will be very close to breaking Vancouver's attendance.

thank you so much, v-m -- what fantastic input. you make me a much smarter hockey fan. i owe you a zywiec [sic?] or 4, brother.

 

 

And ND/Minn. have Winnipeg, which, we're constantly reminded, is a hockey market starved for the product.

good point. although, what's the stat about the percentage of canada's population that resides in southern/eastern ontario?

[Weave]

And ND/Minn. have Winnipeg, which, we're constantly reminded, is a hockey market starved for the product.

 

Don't forget, Winnipeg has a small fraction of the population that southern Ontario has (about 600,000 people) and is about 4 hrs away from Grand Forks. And Winnipeg certainly is less wealthy than Toronto and southern Ontario. I would be suprised if Winnipeg wasn't well represented in ND, but the population and dollars aren't there to support a tourney the way southern Ontario supported this years WJC.

[carpandean]

What did we see happen? Months after season ticket holders were asked to shell out for the entire tournament, and after individual games and day passes were on sale for a bit, the bean counters and snakeoil salesmen at HSBC offered 50% off ALL TICKETS!!! They also ran cross promotions with local business on select games. These were recent developments after pumping how exciting this tournament was going to be for over a year.

 

Now if I was a season ticket holder and paid for the full tournament, which included probably 12 games there was no way I could see during working hours, I would be livid at the 50% discount. But....that is what you should have come to expect from Quinn and co.

Interesting that this is what you "expect" from them when they have a standing and well respected policy (guarantee) that no individual seat to a Sabres game will ever be priced below what season ticket holders pay for the same seat regardless of how low demand is for that game.

[Two or less]

 

thank you so much, v-m -- what fantastic input. you make me a much smarter hockey fan. i owe you a zywiec [sic?] or 4, brother.

 

Nie ma problemu, dzieki!

 

 

Don't forget, Winnipeg has a small fraction of the population that southern Ontario has (about 600,000 people) and is about 4 hrs away from Grand Forks. And Winnipeg certainly is less wealthy than Toronto and southern Ontario. I would be suprised if Winnipeg wasn't well represented in ND, but the population and dollars aren't there to support a tourney the way southern Ontario supported this years WJC.

 

Right, but the Grand Forks games were played at tiny arenas. USA and Canada both played in Grand Forks, in a 11k seater and while Canada sold out, USA barley did. They averaged i believe i read the other day 9k fans. If USA played in a 11k seater in Buffalo, while we'd still have a decent amount of Canadians, it wouldn't be the as it was last night. Also, they had much cheaper ticket prices. These were very high priced games for WJC standards and i doubt we'll see these prices like this again unless like a Toronto hosts it. Every US host (Alaska, Boston, N.Dakota/Minn) was a major failure. Nobody came and the organizers lost money or just came out even. The Buffalo Sabres, who are the organizers of this tournament, will make a revenue profit for between $12-15 million on this tournament. That is success. I know the argument is it's Canadian money, but, fact is, not everyone attending games comes from Canada. On WGR they said few days ago that 65% of all tickets sold have come from Canada.

 

The bottom line is, Americans just don't care for youth hockey and don't just go paint their faces and put on a red, white and blue shirt because USA is hitting the ice. Canada has a pride in whatever Canada does, if it's hockey, curling or whatever. USA... not so much.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Interesting that this is what you "expect" from them when they have a standing and well respected policy (guarantee) that no individual seat to a Sabres game will ever be priced below what season ticket holders pay for the same seat regardless of how low demand is for that game.

 

What I expect is a dog and pony show trumping up an event, then trying to squeeze every last cent out of the fanbase before bolting. If you've read my series of posts on tickets, pricing and fan support over the past few years, I always said the end game was to milk the run to the President's Trophy for all it was worth then sell the team when it was milked dry and before the capital gains tax increase took effect. I am surprised they waited this long, but with the economy I am sure there weren't people beating down the door the past 2 years.

 

This year alone there were games where they priced tickets $1 over. Then the food bank coupon for $20 off a seat, but that was all about charity ;)

And it doesn't really matter much since according to their numbers almost 90% of the revenues come from season tickets. If I open Dwight's Meatball Emporium and it catches on because my meatballs are found to have magical effects on the patrons, and I then price my Meatball dinner at $30, but tell everyone that if they purchase a season pass to my Emporium for 52 meatball dinners I will give it to them for $499....and I limit my Meatball Emporium passes to 4300 people, and tell everyone I am only capable of making 5,000 meatball dinners a week because of the availability of the magical ingredient.........then...well....you see how it works? In the end, I'm holding all the $$$ and the 4300 faithful are left with a load full of meatballs in their mouths.

[Bmwolf21]

I think you might have one standard for the Sabres and another for the USA team.

 

And I hope it's bawling their eyes out, and not balling their eyes out. The latter conjures up some really gross imagery.

 

 

I don't think that's what Swamp means at all. "Floating."

 

I'll allow Swamp to jump in and clarify before I type words on his keyboard (deleted "put words in his mouth" since it always sounds kinda kinky).

Some of our resident SGM's are getting excited about where this discussion is headed....

[spndnchz]

>>>The Buffalo Sabres, who are the organizers of this tournament, will make a revenue profit for between $12-15 million on this tournament. That is success. I know the argument is it's Canadian money, but, fact is, not everyone attending games comes from Canada. On WGR they said few days ago that 65% of all tickets sold have come from Canada.<<<

 

Heard today that the Sabres bought the rights from USA Hockey for approx $3 million. After that ,the profit belongs to the Sabres. That profit is expected to be about 10 mill.

[spndnchz]

I think this article about sums it up for me.

[Stoner]

Heard today that the Sabres bought the rights from USA Hockey for approx $3 million. After that ,the profit belongs to the Sabres. That profit is expected to be about 10 mill.

 

I wonder if the sale of the Sabres was deliberately delayed until after this tournament. There was a report that Pegula made an offer on the Sabres in 2010 that was rebuffed. Was ownership just waiting for this cash cow to come home before selling?

[R_Dudley]

I wonder if the sale of the Sabres was deliberately delayed until after this tournament. There was a report that Pegula made an offer on the Sabres in 2010 that was rebuffed. Was ownership just waiting for this cash cow to come home before selling?

 

That thought jumped my mind and really just drives more suspicion around penny pinching moves such as saving a few hundred thousand on Kennedy, taking the water coolers out and replacing them with drinking fountains and soda machines filled with gatorade and water bottles at $2.00 a piece.

[That Aud Smell]

I wonder if the sale of the Sabres was deliberately delayed until after this tournament. There was a report that Pegula made an offer on the Sabres in 2010 that was rebuffed. Was ownership just waiting for this cash cow to come home before selling?

this thought crossed my mind as well when i saw the report that the sabres purchased the rights to realize the upside of the tournament. still, deals can be structured in a way that would allow the seller to retain the right to a revenue source that wasn't going to close until after the sale closed. still -- it makes me wonder.

 

 

drives more suspicion around penny pinching moves such as saving a few hundred thousand on Kennedy, taking the water coolers out and replacing them with drinking fountains and soda machines filled with gatorade and water bottles at $2.00 a piece.

i'd not heard this. srsly?

[Weave]

That thought jumped my mind and really just drives more suspicion around penny pinching moves such as saving a few hundred thousand on Kennedy, taking the water coolers out and replacing them with drinking fountains and soda machines filled with gatorade and water bottles at $2.00 a piece.

 

 

Wuh????

[SwampD]

I wonder if the sale of the Sabres was deliberately delayed until after this tournament. There was a report that Pegula made an offer on the Sabres in 2010 that was rebuffed. Was ownership just waiting for this cash cow to come home before selling?

If true, and I am absolutely sure it is, is anyone really surprised or upset about this? I can't think of a single reason why any previous owner of anything wouldn't delay the sale for an extra $10 million.