OT - USA Hockey and the de-emphasis of competition

[korab rules]

Any other parents of kids on state/national tournament bound teams concerned about the de-emphasis of competition, the mandate of cross ice for mites, and the elimination of the national tournament for peewees? New York is even getting rid of the state tournament for squirts. All this in favor of regional all star teams that will feed the USA Hockey national program.

 

Seems to me they are sacrificing the rich tradition of community based teams battling for local, state and national titles for all star teams that only benefit the the best of the best who actually have a shot at the national team. I thought that's what Tier 1 hockey already does.

 

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

[BuffalOhio]

It's all part of our newer, kinder, gentler America. The place where nobody wins and nobody loses. The politically correct place that terrorists and illegal immigrants will destroy in the not-too-distant future. It sucks. In life, there are winners, and there are losers. These kids will never learn to handle adversity at this rate.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Like my uncle says: "Each and every one of you children is special!"

[ThePebble19]

As a USA hockey referee, I see it both ways. From a referee standpoint, I really don't see the point of the cross-ice games for mites. Not only is it completely non-competitive, but there is no real point to having a referee there. You are basically there to drop the puck and make sure no one gets hurt. I've done two of them this year, and I could have probably done them in sneakers instead of skates. Not to mention, it really limits the development of a referee. Most Mite referees are first year referees, and they can only ref Mites and Squirts. So, instead of having 2 referees that can do a mite game, it now limits it to one ref per game, and you really aren't doing much of anything while you are on the ice.

 

From a development standpoint, I can sort of see the point. It emphasizes fair play, teamwork and working on the fundamentals of skating, stick handling, etc. This would be fine if they only did this at the Mite B level. I have done a few Mite AA and A games this year that the kids are almost, or, just as good as kids at the lower to mid Squirt levels. In a lot of ways, it doesn't help the younger kids, because now they are learning some of the fundamental hockey rules (icing, offsides, faceoffs, etc.) a couple of years later than they normally would.

 

 

The cancellation of the tournaments are just plain ridiculous.

[X. Benedict]

Any other parents of kids on state/national tournament bound teams concerned about the de-emphasis of competition, the mandate of cross ice for mites, and the elimination of the national tournament for peewees? New York is even getting rid of the state tournament for squirts. All this in favor of regional all star teams that will feed the USA Hockey national program.

 

Seems to me they are sacrificing the rich tradition of community based teams battling for local, state and national titles for all star teams that only benefit the the best of the best who actually have a shot at the national team. I thought that's what Tier 1 hockey already does.

 

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

 

All kids play in the everybody gets a trophy league these days.

[Taro T]

Any other parents of kids on state/national tournament bound teams concerned about the de-emphasis of competition, the mandate of cross ice for mites, and the elimination of the national tournament for peewees? New York is even getting rid of the state tournament for squirts. All this in favor of regional all star teams that will feed the USA Hockey national program.

 

Seems to me they are sacrificing the rich tradition of community based teams battling for local, state and national titles for all star teams that only benefit the the best of the best who actually have a shot at the national team. I thought that's what Tier 1 hockey already does.

 

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Not a big fan of the cross ice for Mites. I understand what the goal is (more touches and improved creativity due to less space) but don't think the goals will be met and the loss of learning offsides and icing will probably outweigh any creativity gained.

 

(Take the next bit w/ an understanding that I am a 'house' coach/dad (and have had several players move on to travel, including one of my sons as a reluctant alternate; so I 'get' travel) but am not travel.) Here in Ra-cha-cha there are a shitload of travel teams, far more than can be legitimately justified. A couple of the bigger local programs have partially merged their travel programs to have an "alliance" (read 'elite') travel team which can actually compete with the top Buffalo teams and the Syracuse Stars which tend to have a wider pool to choose from and less watering down of the talent as they have proportionally fewer travel teams. Both "alliance" orgs still have 'AAA' (read Tier I) travel teams as well, but they have their top kids getting the top coaching and theoretically the top competition. I don't see a problem with having the 'elite' players actually getting to compete against other 'elite' teams rather than competing against teams w/ 1 - 2 'elite' players.

 

Personally, I think 'travel' hockey for Mites (and to a certain degree, for Squirts as well) is stupid. Putting a 7 year old (I've seen 6 year olds in travel as well and have heard about more than one anecdotal example of 5 year olds as well) in a program where he has to be driven 3 hours to a fair number of games, when you could give him as much (or more) ice time in a developmental program, is far more often than not a glory trip for the parent and not in the kid's best interest. Especially at those ages, I have seen some seriously good players playing house and some seriously average players playing travel. (Mixed AA anyone?) The travel players definitely gain an edge from the extra 20-40 times on the ice in a season, but I haven't seen it be necessarily overwhelming at those ages. Especially when clinics and skate & shoots (and backyard rinks) are available for kids that want to get extra ice time.

 

I hadn't heard about NYS cancelling the state tourney for Squirts, and find that silly, but I will defer further comment until I've familiarized myself w/ that decision.

 

And w/ all that said, I will add one more item. I love the fact that at hockey tourneys, your team has to make the finals (or win their division at a minimum) for the kids to get medals/trophies. (True for travel and house alike.) While the organization my kids play in gives out trophies for participation (just like every other lame league around), the kids have to actually get to the finals of our 'house' tournament (which always gets teams from as far away as Ottawa) to get some hardware. (Same for the 'out of town' tourneys we go to.) (Or they have to get a shutout, hat-trick, playmaker, or the like to get an individual award.) The kids don't give a rat's rear end about the participation trophy but the grins they wear after winning a tourney are ear to ear. So I do get the 'competition' thing; I just don't see where having a Mite from Syracuse drive to Cleveland (or TO, or Boston, or ...) makes much sense.

[Weave]

Taro,

 

As a long ago former house league coach, :clapping:

 

:worthy:

[SwampD]

Not a big fan of the cross ice for Mites. I understand what the goal is (more touches and improved creativity due to less space) but don't think the goals will be met and the loss of learning offsides and icing will probably outweigh any creativity gained.

 

(Take the next bit w/ an understanding that I am a 'house' coach/dad (and have had several players move on to travel, including one of my sons as a reluctant alternate; so I 'get' travel) but am not travel.) Here in Ra-cha-cha there are a shitload of travel teams, far more than can be legitimately justified. A couple of the bigger local programs have partially merged their travel programs to have an "alliance" (read 'elite') travel team which can actually compete with the top Buffalo teams and the Syracuse Stars which tend to have a wider pool to choose from and less watering down of the talent as they have proportionally fewer travel teams. Both "alliance" orgs still have 'AAA' (read Tier I) travel teams as well, but they have their top kids getting the top coaching and theoretically the top competition. I don't see a problem with having the 'elite' players actually getting to compete against other 'elite' teams rather than competing against teams w/ 1 - 2 'elite' players.

 

Personally, I think 'travel' hockey for Mites (and to a certain degree, for Squirts as well) is stupid. Putting a 7 year old (I've seen 6 year olds in travel as well and have heard about more than one anecdotal example of 5 year olds as well) in a program where he has to be driven 3 hours to a fair number of games, when you could give him as much (or more) ice time in a developmental program, is far more often than not a glory trip for the parent and not in the kid's best interest. Especially at those ages, I have seen some seriously good players playing house and some seriously average players playing travel. (Mixed AA anyone?) The travel players definitely gain an edge from the extra 20-40 times on the ice in a season, but I haven't seen it be necessarily overwhelming at those ages. Especially when clinics and skate & shoots (and backyard rinks) are available for kids that want to get extra ice time.

 

I hadn't heard about NYS cancelling the state tourney for Squirts, and find that silly, but I will defer further comment until I've familiarized myself w/ that decision.

 

And w/ all that said, I will add one more item. I love the fact that at hockey tourneys, your team has to make the finals (or win their division at a minimum) for the kids to get medals/trophies. (True for travel and house alike.) While the organization my kids play in gives out trophies for participation (just like every other lame league around), the kids have to actually get to the finals of our 'house' tournament (which always gets teams from as far away as Ottawa) to get some hardware. (Same for the 'out of town' tourneys we go to.) (Or they have to get a shutout, hat-trick, playmaker, or the like to get an individual award.) The kids don't give a rat's rear end about the participation trophy but the grins they wear after winning a tourney are ear to ear. So I do get the 'competition' thing; I just don't see where having a Mite from Syracuse drive to Cleveland (or TO, or Boston, or ...) makes much sense.

Great post.

 

I remember getting a participation trophy when I was a kid and thinking it was really stupid.

[korab rules]

Let me give you my thoughts on a few of these things.

 

Cross ice for Mites: It is fine for kids up to Mite C. Mite B is pushing it. Its a joke for Mite A, AA and AAA. My 8 year old is playing AAA. If someone told me he had to play cross ice I would move him up in a heartbeat. Cross ice is great for the kids who need to build skills and confidence and need to handle the puck, but for the more advanced kids with the physical skills and the understanding of the game, its a step back. Its not playing hockey, its freaking T-Ball. My understanding is that for 2012-2013, full ice will be forbidden for all Mites. I predict this will result in shortened regular seasons for USA hockey sanctioned programs and the proliferation of "club teams" operating outside the auspices of USA hockey who will play full ice from January through the Spring. This will be similar to the way programs in Canada operate when their house seasons are over. Hell, parents of more advanced kids may just skip out on USA hockey sanctioned programs all together if a sub culture of non-USA Hockey teams develops. When it comes to development of players, USA Hockey and Hockey Canada are usually in lock step. Hockey Canada wants nothing to do with this developmental model USA Hockey is mandating. That tells me all I need to know.

 

Participation trophies: Hockey has really been one of the last bastions of competition in youth sports. We have tryouts, we have cuts, and when you go to a tournament you don't get $###### unless you have earned it. This all play, everyone is a winner crap is just that. There are winners and losers in sports, academics and life. The sooner the kids learn that, and learn that they need to work hard to enjoy success, the better prepared they will be for life.

 

Regional all star teams as proposed by USA Hockey: supplanting the time honored tradition of State and National tournaments with Regional All Star teams that compete against each other is great for those kids selected for those teams but sucks for everyone else. We have a Tier 1-Tier 3 system for a reason. Those kids who are good enough and have the resources to do it can play Tier 1. Everyone else can play on their community teams and compete for a state and national title against other teams within their tier. USA hockey is sacrificing this state and national tournament model for an all star team model that is all about scouting for USA Hockey's national teams at the expense of the other 99.9% of the kids.

 

Eliminating NYS tournament for Squirts - I don't have 100% confirmation of this, but it is coming, just as the elimination of the national tournament for pee wees is coming. I don't believe either will happen this year, but next year year is very likely. It is a horrible idea with no justification provided whatsoever.

 

In response to Taro T - I assume you are referring to The Amerc's as the elite team. There are a bunch of other so called AAA teams in Rochester who aren't true AAA teams. For true AAA teams to play kids of similar caliber - they do need to travel. For AA and below, you are right, teams in big cities like Rochester don't have to travel far to find good games, but for teams in more remote locations, they don't have a choice. They frequently have to travel 1 1/2 hours or more to just to get to the nearest program. Teams in Buffalo, Rochester Syracuse and Albany are spoiled. Remember that the next time some team from 1 1/2 hours away wants to play a home and home with you. They may be tired of playing that team from 45 minutes away they have already played 10 times this season.

 

To pebble and the other refs - thanks for your patience. As for the ref training on Mite games - please let the refs who can't skate learn with Mite C's - its embarrassing when the refs can't keep up with the kids.

[Weave]

USA hockey is sacrificing this state and national tournament model for an all star team model that is all about scouting for USA Hockey's national teams at the expense of the other 99.9% of the kids.

 

I suspect that this statement cuts to the real motivation behind the changes being made/proposed. USA Hockey is trying to find and develop the best national team it can. And yes, it will be at the expense of everyone else.

[ThePebble19]

To pebble and the other refs - thanks for your patience. As for the ref training on Mite games - please let the refs who can't skate learn with Mite C's - its embarrassing when the refs can't keep up with the kids.

 

Patience is necessary in that line of work ;) I had to give former Flyer/Senator/Flame Mark Freer a bench minor the other day for cussing an official out for no reason during a Squirt game. :bag:

 

This is my first year reffing, and really, my first full year of ice skating 2-3 times a week. I played a lot of years of USA Roller hockey, but no ice hockey. It is not that hard to put in the time to teach yourself to skate well enough to keep up with even Pee Wee or Midget players. For 3 months prior to the season, I made the trip to the ice rink once a week, every friday night for two hours. When I started this, I didn't even know how to stop on ice skates. I did nothing but skate from line to line, trying to stop and falling over. But, by the time the season started, I was decent enough to make it work. Now, it's second nature.

 

Being a referee has less to do with skating than it does with positioning. If you can skate well enough to keep your positioning, you will be fine. It's the refs that are learning bad habits on their positioning, or just not paying enough attention that make it hard on themselves. I'm not saying I'm in position all the time, far from it, but I have worked with guys that were much worse than I am and have put themselves in bad position for a lot of calls.

 

You are correct, that by 2012, there will be no full ice mite games. Like I said before, it's detrimental to the development of the older and more experienced mite kids...It's even worse for the development of the referee. For someone like myself, I know that without the full ice mite games I had at the beginning of the season, I would not have been ready to do the squirt games that I have done recently. What it does is basically force the referee to fight through one year of Level 1, doing mostly these cross-ice games, and then move right up to Level 2, maybe not being ready to handle the next level of competition.

 

I just think it's bad news all the way around.

[Hirly5]

I just read an article by Bucci about USA Hockey. Maybe this can shed some light or add more fuel to the fire.

[X. Benedict]

I just read an article by Bucci about USA Hockey. Maybe this can shed some light or add more fuel to the fire.

Nice piece by Buccigross.

[ThePebble19]

Nice piece by Buccigross.

 

Agreed.

[JKB1646]

Agreed.

 

Very nice piece by Buccigross. Who cares about the development of referees at the mite level? The ADm is 100% correct way to go. If you have any reservations about it just go to a cross ice game with a stop watch. Pick a player of average talent and use the watch to add up his touch time. Then do the same for an elite AAA mite team in a full ice game. You will be amazed at how much chasing they do and how little they actually touch the puck. Further support for the ADM is inbetween the lines in an article by ESPN the Magazine on Patrick Kane.. He credits street hockey in South Buffalo for most of his soft hands development. The last time i was in Buffalo and i saw boys playing street hockey it was no where near the size of a cross ice game. Hell the Swedes don't even let there kids have sticks half the time before the age of 8. OMG what you parents would do if you knew the Finns and Swedes drilled out holes in the middle of their pucks and play with the butt end of their sticks in the puck!

The ADM research was developed over many years and i hope its here to stay, Cross ice, less games, more practices, less standing around at practices, more touches, no checking until Bantams(i'm sure all of you NHL ready parents will have a fit with this one)no score boards and lots more fun!

 

Last but not least there is a fine article written by USA Hockey that i will scrounge up. USA Hockey knew the biggest obstacle to the succes of the program would not be the kids....but "The Parents"! When a rep of USA Hockey came to speak to our organization they knew the parents would have a tough time wraping their competive jiuces around the new program. Its too bad you're not the ones lacing them up.

 

 

JKB

[shrader]

I just read an article by Bucci about USA Hockey. Maybe this can shed some light or add more fuel to the fire.

 

And a nice little local connection there. Rausch got his start in the coaching world at Niagara back when they made that run the the NCAA tourney. I was wondering what happened to him after I noticed he wasn't behind the bench for Lowell anymore.

[korab rules]

Very nice piece by Buccigross. Who cares about the development of referees at the mite level? (1)The ADm is 100% correct way to go. If you have any reservations about it just go to a cross ice game with a stop watch. Pick a player of average talent and use the watch to add up his touch time. Then do the same for an elite AAA mite team in a full ice game. You will be amazed at how much chasing they do and how little they actually touch the puck. (2)Further support for the ADM is inbetween the lines in an article by ESPN the Magazine on Patrick Kane.. He credits street hockey in South Buffalo for most of his soft hands development. The last time i was in Buffalo and i saw boys playing street hockey it was no where near the size of a cross ice game. Hell the Swedes don't even let there kids have sticks half the time before the age of 8. OMG what you parents would do if you knew the Finns and Swedes drilled out holes in the middle of their pucks and play with the butt end of their sticks in the puck!

(3)The ADM research was developed over many years and i hope its here to stay, Cross ice, less games, more practices, less standing around at practices, more touches, no checking until Bantams(i'm sure all of you NHL ready parents will have a fit with this one)no score boards and lots more fun!

 

(4)Last but not least there is a fine article written by USA Hockey that i will scrounge up. USA Hockey knew the biggest obstacle to the succes of the program would not be the kids....but "The Parents"! When a rep of USA Hockey came to speak to our organization they knew the parents would have a tough time wraping their competive jiuces around the new program. Its too bad you're not the ones lacing them up.

 

JKB

 

(1) if you expect skill development to occur in games, then you are sadly mistaken. Skill development takes place in the driveway, on the backyard rinks, in the basement playing knee hockey and on the practice ice. There should be a 3-1 practice to game ratio. Practice is where the kids should be touching pucks constantly, not games.

 

(2) what the hell does street hockey have to do with the ADM? Again, if parents are relying on just formal practice and games to develop their child's skill they will be sadly disappointed. I see this all the time, the kid who has to scrape the rust off his skates in September because he hasn't touched them since march. Hasn't been to a camp or open skate or drop in all summer - his version of off ice training is playing NHL 2K10 on the x-box, and he wonders why he ends up in house. His parents tell him the coach doesn't like him. Kids need to have fun and practice skills on the ice, off the ice and everywhere in between.

 

(3) See point 1 about practice to game ratios. Responsible organizations have been maintaining them forever. Kids standing around at practice isn't a developmental model problem, its piss poor coaching by someone who hasn't taken the time to review any of the coaching manuals and skills and drills programs that are available everywhere for every level. Now we need to dumb down hockey and coach to the lowest common denominator? How is that working in our school systems?

 

(4) too bad I'm not the one lacing them up? I do, but that's not the point. Way to make it a personal attack :thumbsup:

 

The ADM is bull $###### for a lot of reasons - if you have ever looked at it, the amount of ice and the off ice hours it recommends at the upper levels would drive the price of hockey so high that there would be no one to participate in their precious program. There also wouldn't be any coaches capable of devoting the hours that program recommends.

 

Let me see if I have this straight - we can't compete with Canada - a country less than a third our size - so instead of copying what they do, which seems to be working pretty well, we are going to do the opposite? No checking until Bantam? In Canada they check at the squirt level!

 

When I hear codescention towards travel kids and programs, it usually comes from people who didn't make a travel team. My kids won't play in the NHL, they are very unlikely to play in college on anything other than a club team. But they will be studs in their beer leagues the rest of their lives. They get to learn a lifetime sport while learning life skills and making lifelong friendships. They will also learn to win and lose with grace, realize that hard work is rewarded, and that nothing ever gets handed to you. That's a lesson all kids should learn, whether they play on house, travel or USA Hockey's precious All Star teams.

[ThePebble19]

Very nice piece by Buccigross. Who cares about the development of referees at the mite level? The ADm is 100% correct way to go. If you have any reservations about it just go to a cross ice game with a stop watch. Pick a player of average talent and use the watch to add up his touch time. Then do the same for an elite AAA mite team in a full ice game. You will be amazed at how much chasing they do and how little they actually touch the puck. Further support for the ADM is inbetween the lines in an article by ESPN the Magazine on Patrick Kane.. He credits street hockey in South Buffalo for most of his soft hands development. The last time i was in Buffalo and i saw boys playing street hockey it was no where near the size of a cross ice game. Hell the Swedes don't even let there kids have sticks half the time before the age of 8. OMG what you parents would do if you knew the Finns and Swedes drilled out holes in the middle of their pucks and play with the butt end of their sticks in the puck!

The ADM research was developed over many years and i hope its here to stay, Cross ice, less games, more practices, less standing around at practices, more touches, no checking until Bantams(i'm sure all of you NHL ready parents will have a fit with this one)no score boards and lots more fun!

 

Last but not least there is a fine article written by USA Hockey that i will scrounge up. USA Hockey knew the biggest obstacle to the succes of the program would not be the kids....but "The Parents"! When a rep of USA Hockey came to speak to our organization they knew the parents would have a tough time wraping their competive jiuces around the new program. Its too bad you're not the ones lacing them up.

 

 

JKB

 

Without proper conditions for ice time and training, this is how you get incompetant referees at the higher levels. There is a reason there are multiple levels of officiating, and this is exactly the reason.

 

The discussion between whether mites should or shouldn't be cross ice one thing, I was just relaying another perspective that has to do about the training of officials.

[Taro T]

...

 

In response to Taro T - I assume you are referring to The Amerc's as the elite team. There are a bunch of other so called AAA teams in Rochester who aren't true AAA teams. For true AAA teams to play kids of similar caliber - they do need to travel. For AA and below, you are right, teams in big cities like Rochester don't have to travel far to find good games, but for teams in more remote locations, they don't have a choice. They frequently have to travel 1 1/2 hours or more to just to get to the nearest program. Teams in Buffalo, Rochester Syracuse and Albany are spoiled. Remember that the next time some team from 1 1/2 hours away wants to play a home and home with you. They may be tired of playing that team from 45 minutes away they have already played 10 times this season.

 

...

We are in agreement that there are several AAA teams in Ra-cha-cha that are AAA in name only. That is at all levels.

 

Where we disagree is on whether Mites should be playing in ‘travel’ leagues. It seems to me that Snowbelt agrees as they don’t officially have Mite divisions according to their website although it appears all the Snowbelt orgs do have Mite teams. I do understand that geography and demographics will should necessitate a certain amount of travel at all age groups and I do understand that it gets real old real fast playing the same 2 teams all the time. But I don’t see the point of carting a 7 year old off for a 3 hour trip every other weekend so that he can “play kids of similar caliber.” When the kids are Pee Wees or older that makes sense to me (it doesn’t make sense FOR me, but I do get it), but it does not make sense to me at the Mite level.

 

As an aside, my teams typically have played one or 2 home & homes with teams from outside Empire. Don’t have one scheduled yet this year, but my manager is still working on it. We just got our ’11 dates this past week. As another aside, of all the players I have been head coach for in the past 4 years only 1 is not participating in organized hockey today (and there were extenuating circumstances in why even that 1 was “lost” to the game) and several have moved up to travel.

 

[i had a Q or 2 about clarifications to your view on the HPC stuff, but you seem to have answered my Q's in your last post; so thanks for the clarification.]

[korab rules]

We are in agreement that there are several AAA teams in Ra-cha-cha that are AAA in name only. That is at all levels.

 

Where we disagree is on whether Mites should be playing in ‘travel’ leagues. It seems to me that Snowbelt agrees as they don’t officially have Mite divisions according to their website although it appears all the Snowbelt orgs do have Mite teams. I do understand that geography and demographics will should necessitate a certain amount of travel at all age groups and I do understand that it gets real old real fast playing the same 2 teams all the time. But I don’t see the point of carting a 7 year old off for a 3 hour trip every other weekend so that he can “play kids of similar caliber.” When the kids are Pee Wees or older that makes sense to me (it doesn’t make sense FOR me, but I do get it), but it does not make sense to me at the Mite level.

 

As an aside, my teams typically have played one or 2 home & homes with teams from outside Empire. Don’t have one scheduled yet this year, but my manager is still working on it. We just got our ’11 dates this past week. As another aside, of all the players I have been head coach for in the past 4 years only 1 is not participating in organized hockey today (and there were extenuating circumstances in why even that 1 was “lost” to the game) and several have moved up to travel.

 

[i had a Q or 2 about clarifications to your view on the HPC stuff, but you seem to have answered my Q's in your last post; so thanks for the clarification.]

 

HPC?

 

The amount of travel for seven year olds is a valid consideration, but for small programs in remote locations the kids don't have much choice. They often only have two teams at a level, and can only beat on each other so long before needing to play other teams. If you've never gone on a long road trip on a frosty morning for a hockey game, stopped at Dunkin Donuts or Timmy Ho's for hot chocolates, and arrived at a rink before the snow plows you haven't lived! You are lucky to play in a league where you have half a dozen teams within 20 minutes of your home rink. Glad to hear you play teams outside Empire!

 

Snowbelt does agree, but they are essentially a house league. When I refer to travel, I am referring to tournament bound teams. NYS hockey doesn't have a Mite division either, but there are very few competitive programs that don't have a very active Mite team.