Terry Pegula buying the Buffalo Sabres discussion

[Patty16]

Right...so they "cap" season tickets at 14,825. The place holds 18,690. They have 18,222 average attendance. That means they sell 3397 out of 3865 seats available. But wouldn't those who were "shut out" of season tickets be gobbling up seats? Then there are the other 1.2 million people in western ny. I mean...you would think they like going to hockey games, right?

 

And to think the team has been so generous as to offer single game tickets anywhere from below season ticket price to $1 over season ticket price for over half of the games the first half of the season. Not to mention your family pack, holiday pack, Sabres Insider coupon codes, etc.

 

Interesting stuff....how those numbers all add up.

 

You wonder why these guys have been looking to sell the team? Go back to the conversation we had before the season on ticket renewals. Big thread on it.

 

 

Ticket promotions are standard across all leagues and teams. They arent hurting financially even with reduced pricing.

[korab rules]

Pegula may be a better owner than TG -- I think it is everyone's fervent hope that he is. However, that wouldn't mean that TG has been a bad or even an average owner -- only that Pegula would be something like a top-5 owner.

 

Bottom line is that, as you point out, TG saved the team and kept it here (and this is certainly the most important thing he did), but he also funded operating losses for a couple of years up front, funded a payroll within shouting distance of the cap (a payroll which is now more than double where it was when he bought the team), kept ticket prices affordable, stabilized the franchise after a lengthy period of instability, didn't inject himself into the hockey side, oversaw an operation that rebuilt fan support to outstanding levels, and generally removed ownership as a concern.

 

Was he as good as Mike Illitch or Ted Leonsis? No, but there are and have been so many awful owners in the NHL (including in WNY) that I think those who criticize TG might not realize how fortunate the Sabres have been.

 

This is all 100% accurate. Those with an appreciation of the history of this franchise should hold nothing but great appreciation for TG. The Knoxes were great, but cash strapped for a large portion of their ownership years. The Rigases? What can I say? Without TG, we might need to hop a plane to see our Sabres play. He has restored our team to a viable NHL franchise. Hopefully Pegula will take that next step...

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Pegula may be a better owner than TG -- I think it is everyone's fervent hope that he is. However, that wouldn't mean that TG has been a bad or even an average owner -- only that Pegula would be something like a top-5 owner.

 

Bottom line is that, as you point out, TG saved the team and kept it here (and this is certainly the most important thing he did), but he also funded operating losses for a couple of years up front, funded a payroll within shouting distance of the cap (a payroll which is now more than double where it was when he bought the team), kept ticket prices affordable, stabilized the franchise after a lengthy period of instability, didn't inject himself into the hockey side, oversaw an operation that rebuilt fan support to outstanding levels, and generally removed ownership as a concern.

 

Was he as good as Mike Illitch or Ted Leonsis? No, but there are and have been so many awful owners in the NHL (including in WNY) that I think those who criticize TG might not realize how fortunate the Sabres have been.

 

Here's the thing......If Tommy G has been a good owner, and isn't a problem....then WHO IS the problem?

 

The Big 4 of Golisano/Quinn/Regier/Ruff all have a circle of excuses built in, yet nothing has been done to find the faulty circuit all this time. That makes Golisano a bad owner because he has the final call. All things considered, he did his job as an owner and I appreciate him buying the team for $62 million after $30 million was forgiven because of Quinn's ties to the state Democratic establishment, (Hey Pegula! You might want to watch video of Sabres' postgame where Steve Pidgeon is in the lockeroom skulking around as players are interviewed), and is about to sell for close to 300% the purchase price after netting $20 million in profits over the past 5 years.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Ticket promotions are standard across all leagues and teams. They arent hurting financially even with reduced pricing.

 

Ticket Situation

 

You don't seem to get the point here Patty.

 

Season tickets capped at 15,000 plus minipacks bringing us over 16,000...and 1600 people supposedly on a season ticket waiting list. That is almost to 18,000 right there.

 

So we have 18,000 diehards that subscribe to wanting to be at every game, yet the other 1.2 million people in the area only manage 200 seats a game?

 

Larry knew their goose was cooked next year. This was his only play, to sell the team, or else there would be 15,000 in the seats next year if the team keeps up the same pace.

 

Read the other thread.

[korab rules]

Ticket Situation

 

You don't seem to get the point here Patty.

 

Season tickets capped at 15,000 plus minipacks bringing us over 16,000...and 1600 people supposedly on a season ticket waiting list. That is almost to 18,000 right there.

 

So we have 18,000 diehards that subscribe to wanting to be at every game, yet the other 1.2 million people in the area only manage 200 seats a game?

 

Larry knew their goose was cooked next year. This was his only play, to sell the team, or else there would be 15,000 in the seats next year if the team keeps up the same pace.

 

Read the other thread.

 

OR he could create a competitive team that people want to see play every night. I've heard that Sabres fans tend to support a decent team that plays hard, or even a not so decent team that is exciting to watch.

[Patty16]

 

You don't seem to get the point here Patty.

 

Season tickets capped at 15,000 plus minipacks bringing us over 16,000...and 1600 people supposedly on a season ticket waiting list. That is almost to 18,000 right there.

 

So we have 18,000 diehards that subscribe to wanting to be at every game, yet the other 1.2 million people in the area only manage 200 seats a game?

 

Larry knew their goose was cooked next year. This was his only play, to sell the team, or else there would be 15,000 in the seats next year if the team keeps up the same pace.

 

Read the other thread.

 

 

Thank you for enlightening us plebeians. Ive heard the wating list is much longer than 1600 but i digress.

 

And you're making the assumption that everyone on the list wants to sit in the upper level corner seats with a bunch of college kids. They don't.

 

Im not going to read another thread on this topic. You are somehow saying that LQ wants to sell this team because he thinks the fans are gonna stop buying tickets?

[SMIRNOFF]

from what? they are about 2-3.5 million under the cap which is pretty good for a team selling $20 tickets on some nights.

 

You cant really say the team in cheap, they just spend poorly.

This

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Thank you for enlightening us plebeians. Ive heard the wating list is much longer than 1600 but i digress.

 

And you're making the assumption that everyone on the list wants to sit in the upper level corner seats with a bunch of college kids. They don't.

 

Im not going to read another thread on this topic. You are somehow saying that LQ wants to sell this team because he thinks the fans are gonna stop buying tickets?

 

So it's LONGER than 1600...wow! Well if they don't want to sit in the 300 corners....there are club seats available to every game. Or is this the 3 little bears of Larry/Darcy/Lindy and this porridge is too hot and this porridge is too cold?

 

I know you won't spend the time educating yourself in the other thread. It would be like pulling your goalie when down 5-0. Why add to your anxiety?

 

I am saying Larry doesn't THINK the fans are going to stop buying tickets.....they already have.

 

He's run out of gimmicks. This was his only option next to gutting his 2 other bears and getting daddy to spend to the cap after a real hockey man was brought in.

[Two or less]

from what? they are about 2-3.5 million under the cap which is pretty good for a team selling $20 tickets on some nights.

 

You cant really say the team in cheap, they just spend poorly.

 

They did spend poorly, looking back at it. However, did anyone of note ever want to come here? We are the team that suspended Teppo Numminen because he had a bad heart. We are the team that kicked one of our own to the curb (Tim Kennedy) because he took us to arbitration, which it doesn't matter what Darcy tells us, Tom Golisano is very anti-arbitration. We allowed both Briere and Drury walk. And before you blame them, don't forget both players wanted to secure their futures in January of that year but ownership wanted to wait until the off-season.

 

Don't get me wrong, if he does sell, which i hope he does, i hope in the madness it's not lost that Golisano saved the team. He should be remembered for the good. He made us viable, and turned HSBC Arena into one of the World's premier rinks. He gave us hope and as a reward, he will make a good bank on it but this isn't his baby, this isn't his passion, he was just a caretaker. Now, it's time to move on. But, Darcy may have been handcuffed.

 

Look at the recent deals he made. He trades for Dominic Moore but at the same time sends Kotalik out. He trades for Torres, but at the same time must get rid of salary by dumping MacArthur. The players he got rid of wern't special, but, it just shows you that to make a deal, he needed to get rid of salary.

[Patty16]

So it's LONGER than 1600...wow! Well if they don't want to sit in the 300 corners....there are club seats available to every game. Or is this the 3 little bears of Larry/Darcy/Lindy and this porridge is too hot and this porridge is too cold?

 

I know you won't spend the time educating yourself in the other thread. It would be like pulling your goalie when down 5-0. Why add to your anxiety?

 

I am saying Larry doesn't THINK the fans are going to stop buying tickets.....they already have.

 

He's run out of gimmicks. This was his only option next to gutting his 2 other bears and getting daddy to spend to the cap after a real hockey man was brought in.

 

Theyve stopped buying tickets based on what? playing to 97% capacity this year? 99% last year? 99% the year before? Where is the drop ?

 

All teams do ticket promotions so saying the sabres do it to support your notion that sales suck isnt saying much. The capitals have OV and play to 100% but do weekly ticket promotions, very similar to the sabres. Many teams do this and it is not a sign of sales strength.

 

I would rather educate myself by looking up the ticket numbers myself, than reading a thread on what people think is happening. The hard numbers show no real decline in ticket sales.

[PotentPowerPlay22]

Pegula may be a better owner than TG -- I think it is everyone's fervent hope that he is. However, that wouldn't mean that TG has been a bad or even an average owner -- only that Pegula would be something like a top-5 owner.

 

Bottom line is that, as you point out, TG saved the team and kept it here (and this is certainly the most important thing he did), but he also funded operating losses for a couple of years up front, funded a payroll within shouting distance of the cap (a payroll which is now more than double where it was when he bought the team), kept ticket prices affordable, stabilized the franchise after a lengthy period of instability, didn't inject himself into the hockey side, oversaw an operation that rebuilt fan support to outstanding levels, and generally removed ownership as a concern.

 

Was he as good as Mike Illitch or Ted Leonsis? No, but there are and have been so many awful owners in the NHL (including in WNY) that I think those who criticize TG might not realize how fortunate the Sabres have been.

 

Golisano is a businessman. He bought the Sabres as an investment and it looks like it will pay off handsomely for him. He saved the team for WNY and he deserves credit for that fact. However, he never was interested in taking the Sabres to a championship level. It just wasn't in his budget. He actually put the team at a competitive disadvantage will all the back to back games because he thought he could squeeze a few more ticket sales by insisting on Friday night home games. His main thoughts were about money and not winning a title.

 

Hopefully, the new owner will invest in such a way that the goal will be to win the Stanley Cup. This could be a major turning point in Sabres history. I hope the sale goes through and the new owner is dedicated to winning. I also hope Larry Quinn gets put out to pasture for good.

[Two or less]

Sorry if i missed this in this thread, but has anyone seen this? Kinda a buzz kill....

 

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=343650

 

SOURCE: SABRES OWNER GOLISANO UNDECIDED ON SELLING TEAM

 

BUFFALO, N.Y. - A person familiar with a Pennsylvania billionaire's interest to buy the Buffalo Sabres has told The Associated Press that team owner Tom Golisano has not yet made up his mind on whether to sell the NHL franchise.

 

The person confirmed that Terry Pegula is a candidate to buy the Sabres, and added that Golisano is giving the offer "serious consideration" but has not yet made a decision. The person spoke on the condition of anonymity Wednesday because the person is not authorized to discuss negotiations.

 

Golisano has declined comment since reports surfaced this week of Pegula's bid to buy the Sabres.

 

Pegula could not be reached for comment.

 

John Wawrow reported this.

[nfreeman]

Here's the thing......If Tommy G has been a good owner, and isn't a problem....then WHO IS the problem?

 

The Big 4 of Golisano/Quinn/Regier/Ruff all have a circle of excuses built in, yet nothing has been done to find the faulty circuit all this time. That makes Golisano a bad owner because he has the final call. All things considered, he did his job as an owner and I appreciate him buying the team for $62 million after $30 million was forgiven because of Quinn's ties to the state Democratic establishment, (Hey Pegula! You might want to watch video of Sabres' postgame where Steve Pidgeon is in the lockeroom skulking around as players are interviewed), and is about to sell for close to 300% the purchase price after netting $20 million in profits over the past 5 years.

Well, arguably, there isn't a real problem. They've made some poor team construction decisions (one of which -- the Drury CF -- apparently made by TG himself), and some of their younger players haven't developed the way they had hoped, resulting in a disappointing performance so far this year. But they won their division last year and have the best goalie in the NHL and the Calder winner on their roster, as well as some good-looking prospects in the system. I'll accept that there is some softness in attendance and ticket sales, but overall it's still pretty strong, and I expect that more winning would result in the top corners of the arena being filled. More broadly, almost every team, regardless of how strong ownership, goes through some ups and downs -- look at NJ and Pittsburgh.

 

Now, if you feel that the product on the ice speaks for itself and someone has to be accountable -- no disagreement here. I just think that this team's problems can be traced to 4 or 5 key decisions at key times that went badly over the past few years (Drury, Briere, Soupy, Pommer, TC, and not going after someone like Pronger, Chara or Gaborik when he became available), that we don't know who made these decisions, and that other than Drury, TG probably wasn't involved in those decisions.

 

Also, (i) we have no way of knowing how much, if any, profits the team has made -- and any discussion of recent profits has to include netting those against the losses in the early years and (ii) you can't blame him for taking the $30MM in debt forgiveness -- I would expect that this was on the table for any buyer of the team at that point. He still ponied up a lot of cash and took a material risk in buying the team that no one else was willing to take.

 

So it's LONGER than 1600...wow! Well if they don't want to sit in the 300 corners....there are club seats available to every game. Or is this the 3 little bears of Larry/Darcy/Lindy and this porridge is too hot and this porridge is too cold?

 

I know you won't spend the time educating yourself in the other thread. It would be like pulling your goalie when down 5-0. Why add to your anxiety?

 

I am saying Larry doesn't THINK the fans are going to stop buying tickets.....they already have.

 

He's run out of gimmicks. This was his only option next to gutting his 2 other bears and getting daddy to spend to the cap after a real hockey man was brought in.

OK, let's keep it friendly here.

 

As for the substance of the post -- I don't think there's anything remarkable about attendance softening in light of the playoff debacle and the season so far. That doesn't mean the team is a cause economically. And while LQ may be on board with this sale, I don't think it was his only option -- I think TG probably indicated that he was ready to get out anytime someone came along at the right number who would keep the team in WNY (that condition being another strong plus for TG as an owner, BTW). In other words, it wasn't an option at all, and he most likely didn't put it together as much as he knew it was inevitable.

[Patty16]

Well, arguably, there isn't a real problem. They've made some poor team construction decisions (one of which -- the Drury CF -- apparently made by TG himself), and some of their younger players haven't developed the way they had hoped, resulting in a disappointing performance so far this year. But they won their division last year and have the best goalie in the NHL and the Calder winner on their roster, as well as some good-looking prospects in the system. I'll accept that there is some softness in attendance and ticket sales, but overall it's still pretty strong, and I expect that more winning would result in the top corners of the arena being filled. More broadly, almost every team, regardless of how strong ownership, goes through some ups and downs -- look at NJ and Pittsburgh.

 

Now, if you feel that the product on the ice speaks for itself and someone has to be accountable -- no disagreement here. I just think that this team's problems can be traced to 4 or 5 key decisions at key times that went badly over the past few years (Drury, Briere, Soupy, Pommer, TC, and not going after someone like Pronger, Chara or Gaborik when he became available), that we don't know who made these decisions, and that other than Drury, TG probably wasn't involved in those decisions.

 

Also, (i) we have no way of knowing how much, if any, profits the team has made -- and any discussion of recent profits has to include netting those against the losses in the early years and (ii) you can't blame him for taking the $30MM in debt forgiveness -- I would expect that this was on the table for any buyer of the team at that point. He still ponied up a lot of cash and took a material risk in buying the team that no one else was willing to take.

 

 

OK, let's keep it friendly here.

 

As for the substance of the post -- I don't think there's anything remarkable about attendance softening in light of the playoff debacle and the season so far. That doesn't mean the team is a cause economically. And while LQ may be on board with this sale, I don't think it was his only option -- I think TG probably indicated that he was ready to get out anytime someone came along at the right number who would keep the team in WNY (that condition being another strong plus for TG as an owner, BTW). In other words, it wasn't an option at all, and he most likely didn't put it together as much as he knew it was inevitable.

 

 

I dont think TG was all that interested in the team anymore, but didnt want it to move. So if someone came along he would sell it to the right person, otherwise he would hang on.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Sorry if i missed this in this thread, but has anyone seen this? Kinda a buzz kill....

 

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=343650

 

 

 

John Wawrow reported this.

 

Wawrow is Quinn's boy. Quinny's just posturing for an extra $15 million

[nobody]

Are any of the Florida teams still for sale? I would think that the league would like to keep Golisano as one of the owners in the league.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Well, arguably, there isn't a real problem. They've made some poor team construction decisions (one of which -- the Drury CF -- apparently made by TG himself), and some of their younger players haven't developed the way they had hoped, resulting in a disappointing performance so far this year. But they won their division last year and have the best goalie in the NHL and the Calder winner on their roster, as well as some good-looking prospects in the system. I'll accept that there is some softness in attendance and ticket sales, but overall it's still pretty strong, and I expect that more winning would result in the top corners of the arena being filled. More broadly, almost every team, regardless of how strong ownership, goes through some ups and downs -- look at NJ and Pittsburgh.

 

Now, if you feel that the product on the ice speaks for itself and someone has to be accountable -- no disagreement here. I just think that this team's problems can be traced to 4 or 5 key decisions at key times that went badly over the past few years (Drury, Briere, Soupy, Pommer, TC, and not going after someone like Pronger, Chara or Gaborik when he became available), that we don't know who made these decisions, and that other than Drury, TG probably wasn't involved in those decisions.

 

Also, (i) we have no way of knowing how much, if any, profits the team has made -- and any discussion of recent profits has to include netting those against the losses in the early years and (ii) you can't blame him for taking the $30MM in debt forgiveness -- I would expect that this was on the table for any buyer of the team at that point. He still ponied up a lot of cash and took a material risk in buying the team that no one else was willing to take.

 

 

OK, let's keep it friendly here.

 

As for the substance of the post -- I don't think there's anything remarkable about attendance softening in light of the playoff debacle and the season so far. That doesn't mean the team is a cause economically. And while LQ may be on board with this sale, I don't think it was his only option -- I think TG probably indicated that he was ready to get out anytime someone came along at the right number who would keep the team in WNY (that condition being another strong plus for TG as an owner, BTW). In other words, it wasn't an option at all, and he most likely didn't put it together as much as he knew it was inevitable.

 

We worked out the profits a few years ago. There is a difference between a reported accounting loss and actual cashflow. Of course the lawyers and accountants running the team will cry poverty to the media and fanbse. I think they banked $8 million in one year alone.

 

And once again on the ticket issue.....I don't expect everyone to get it. I can only lay out the numbers. You have to look at the secondary market which will tell you demand is dried up for this franchise. The Sabres know this. The fans' goodwill piggybank is dried up as well. You price an asset in accordance to future revenue streams. The NHL in general is in rough shape as I have been saying. It has been mentioned that the Sabres took a 12% haircut in value this year alone....not to mention they are off almost 30% from the high estimate if the 150mil is the price.

 

Look at the excitement this ownership issue has generated the past few days. The fans are on the verge of apathy if not already there with the current group. This move makes sense now for the current owners and I am sure they have been shopping the team the past 2 years. They've squeezed the last orange dry in this story, and it's either a sale....or wholesale changes to keep the fanbase involved.

[wonderbread]

Wawrow is Quinn's boy. Quinny's just posturing for an extra $15 million

That'll surely get him a few cases of Canadian Club.

[korab rules]

That'll surely get him a few cases of Canadian Club.

I thought it was jameson's?

[biodork]

If I had to wager a guess about the season ticket waiting list vs. empty seats in the arena: maybe a lot of those people signed up for the waiting list and don't want to give up their spot in case the team improves, but aren't thrilled enough with this year's team to purchase individual game tickets. Just a thought.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I thought it was jameson's?

 

No, Jameson is the name of the exchange student that stays at Ronan Tynan's condo. I hear he's able to add half an octave to RT's voice when he does....you know...that thing.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

If I had to wager a guess about the season ticket waiting list vs. empty seats in the arena: maybe a lot of those people signed up for the waiting list and don't want to give up their spot in case the team improves, but aren't thrilled enough with this year's team to purchase individual game tickets. Just a thought.

 

That's sort of like saying I want to marry someone, but refuse to make out with them on the ferris wheel with no strings attached.

[ROC Sabres]

That's sort of like saying I want to marry someone, but refuse to make out with them on the ferris wheel with no strings attached.

Such is love.

[Stoner]

Yes of course, but i dont think that would be immediate. Who knows? The team already has pretty good facilities and an owner cant change the city of buffalo to make it more attractive.

 

He can foster a winning culture tho.

 

Unfortunately, nothing is close to official according the reports, which are all conflicting right meow.

 

:unsure:

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

:unsure:

 

How ironic that the biggest Sabres flag waiver on the board is also a #####!