Terry Pegula buying the Buffalo Sabres discussion

[Patty16]

from what? they are about 2-3.5 million under the cap which is pretty good for a team selling $20 tickets on some nights.

 

You cant really say the team in cheap, they just spend poorly.

[That Aud Smell]

The team is owned by Niagara Frontier Hockey, LP, a limited partnership.

not for nothin' and fwiw: http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=4030217

 

but my take could be wrong in one respect: quinn's status as managing partner may owe to his stake in the LP. it may be that the LLC is wholly owned by TG and is his vehicle for ownership in the LP, in which case LQ would have his ownership stake in the LP, not in the LLC. but if the LP is wholly held by the LLC (for tax purposes, i would suspect), then quinn's stake would be upstream of the LP and reside within the LLC.

 

no matter.

 

i'll be staying tuned ... and hoping that the team can start stringing some wins together.

 

/kirk out

 

I would be shocked if either the partnership agreement or the ownership agreement guaranteed that Quinn would be the managing partner or the manager of the LLC. I would be even more shocked if they weren't structured so that an owner with Golisano's overwhelming majority interest couldn't amend the documents at will.

agreed, in substance.

 

freeman's take is also quite plausible.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I think you are overestimating the quality of the other NHL owners.

 

Golisano had the potential to turn into a great owner. He came flying right out of the box with the team doing so well, and he was eating up the attention. If the Sabres could have made a Cup, I could have seen him keeping things going. I see this all the time in horseracing, as it is an ego driven business. If a guy has success right off the bat even though he doesn't know much about the ins and outs, he is ready to rock and roll and get more horses and take more shots. Once the dream takes a blow, the patience runs thin if he doesn't have a true passion for the game. Tommy G was in the winner's circle getting his picture taken, everyone loved him and his team, and things were great. Once it was clear his horse couldn't win the Derby....it was time to pay attention to the costs of the other horses in the stable. You don't mind writing checks when your pony is in the papers everyday and pays you back and then some.

 

Pegula again, is real money. If he truly loves the game and wants to coddle his team, he will spend to the cap and not fret the bottom line. If it takes 3 years of losses to get to the Cup, it will be worth it. Now any reasonable person will call mercy after a certain timeperiod of failure, but he SHOULD have a high initial tolerance. I just hope he has others he trusts to bring in and make hockey decisions, because I do not believe Darcy and maybe even Ruff, understand what makes a prime athlete. Time and time again I have heard Pegula reference character in hockey players.....and we know he loved the Broad Street Bullies. That is 180 degrees from what we have seen here under this management team.

 

This team is currently on pace for missing the playoffs for the 3rd time in 4 years and 6th in 9 years. The only success in my mind has been that Golisano kept the team from moving. I appreciate that, but at the same time your house isn't worth much in Amherst when the foundation keeps sinking another 6 inches every year.

[biodork]

I'll support any owner who shows that sycophant Larry Quinn the door.

 

PTR

 

Does that mean if we corner him and sing Better Days backwards, he'll go back where he came from?

[CallawaySabres]

from what? they are about 2-3.5 million under the cap which is pretty good for a team selling $20 tickets on some nights.

 

You cant really say the team in cheap, they just spend poorly.

 

I think more importantly than the $$ is the change of atmosphere which should be much more attractive to free agents concerned about winning. This guy should be a huge breathe of fresh air....

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Does that mean if we corner him and sing Better Days backwards, he'll go back where he came from?

 

I think we need to trick him. Next time the Pens are in town, have the zamboni filled with holy water then after the morning skate have Sidney Crosby get someone to tell Quinn he wants to have a skate with him. When Quinny comes down after spraying cologne on his netheregions, Sid can skate full speed and stop right in front of Quinn, spraying him with the blessed ice.

 

That should melt the stint in his aorta, and it's one for the good guys.

[Eleven]

Fixed it for you.

 

This is where my information came from: http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/BuffaloSabres/index.htm

 

Granted, not exactly Dow Jones. But it explains his title.

 

It doesn't really matter; what I said would likely be true with respect to the partnership agreement would likely be true of an operating agreement or other agreement among LLC members.

[biodork]

I think we need to trick him. Next time the Pens are in town, have the zamboni filled with holy water then after the morning skate have Sidney Crosby get someone to tell Quinn he wants to have a skate with him. When Quinny comes down after spraying cologne on his netheregions, Sid can skate full speed and stop right in front of Quinn, spraying him with the blessed ice.

 

That should melt the stint in his aorta, and it's one for the good guys.

 

lol

[Patty16]

I think more importantly than the $$ is the change of atmosphere which should be much more attractive to free agents concerned about winning. This guy should be a huge breathe of fresh air....

 

 

Yes of course, but i dont think that would be immediate. Who knows? The team already has pretty good facilities and an owner cant change the city of buffalo to make it more attractive.

 

He can foster a winning culture tho.

 

Unfortunately, nothing is close to official according the reports, which are all conflicting right meow.

[That Aud Smell]

This is where my information came from: http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/BuffaloSabres/index.htm

 

gotcha. under "Ownership (Management)" the page says "Hockey Western New York, LLC (Centre Management)".

 

It doesn't really matter; what I said would likely be true with respect to the partnership agreement would likely be true of an operating agreement or other agreement among LLC members.

again, agreed.

[Eleven]

not for nothin' and fwiw: http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=4030217

 

but my take could be wrong in one respect: quinn's status as managing partner may owe to his stake in the LP. it may be that the LLC is wholly owned by TG and is his vehicle for ownership in the LP, in which case LQ would have his ownership stake in the LP, not in the LLC. but if the LP is wholly held by the LLC (for tax purposes, i would suspect), then quinn's stake would be upstream of the LP and reside within the LLC.

 

no matter.

 

i'll be staying tuned ... and hoping that the team can start stringing some wins together.

 

/kirk out

 

 

agreed, in substance.

 

freeman's take is also quite plausible.

 

Yeah, that's it, I think. The LP owns the team. The LLC is a partner in the LP. Again, we don't have the documents.

[PromoTheRobot]

Does that mean if we corner him and sing Better Days backwards, he'll go back where he came from?

Here's my fear about Larry, and forgive me if I'm repeating something from earlier in the thread. Larry is mainly a real estate developer and I believe he was a main player in getting HSBC arena built.

 

Larry's leverage may come from bring able to control who gets to use the arena. If Pegula tries to push him out, Quinn may threaten to mess with his access to the arena. This is just speculation but I have always wondered how Quinn manages to insert himself into the Sabres over and over under different owners.

 

PTR

[Patty16]

Here's my fear about Larry, and forgive me if I'm repeating something from earlier in the thread. Larry is mainly a real estate developer and I believe he was a main player in getting HSBC arena built.

 

Larry's leverage may come from bring able to control who gets to use the arena. If Pegula tries to push him out, Quinn may threaten to mess with his access to the arena. This is just speculation but I have always wondered how Quinn manages to insert himself into the Sabres over and over under different owners.

 

PTR

 

 

Hes relatively good at what he does, that's why. He was instrumental in having the arena built which is still top notch, and the sabres still have a waiting list for season tickets. That usually keeps you in your job.

[That Aud Smell]

Again, we don't have the documents.

gutdam it, now today is shot for me as well. ;)

[notwoz]

gutdam it, now today is shot for me as well. ;)

 

But it's a good kind of shot.:)

[Eleven]

gutdam it, now today is shot for me as well. ;)

 

You gonna drive to Albany for us?

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Hes relatively good at what he does, that's why. He was instrumental in having the arena built which is still top notch, and the sabres still have a waiting list for season tickets. That usually keeps you in your job.

 

That's right....a waiting list for season tickets. Yet for some reason the corners of the arena have been empty much of this year and the Sabres have run a half dozen promotions so far for reduced tickets to the majority of the upcoming games.

 

Interesting how that works??????

[Patty16]

That's right....a waiting list for season tickets. Yet for some reason the corners of the arena have been empty much of this year and the Sabres have run a half dozen promotions so far for reduced tickets to the majority of the upcoming games.

 

Interesting how that works??????

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

 

 

playing to 97% capacity so far.

[That Aud Smell]

You gonna drive to Albany for us?

ha!

 

nah, neither partnership nor operating agreements are filed with the SoS.

[biodork]

That's right....a waiting list for season tickets. Yet for some reason the corners of the arena have been empty much of this year and the Sabres have run a half dozen promotions so far for reduced tickets to the majority of the upcoming games.

 

Interesting how that works??????

 

Didn't they cap the number of season tickets at somewhere around 14,000 to ensure availability of mini-packs and individual tickets? Thought I remembered something like that from the season or two after the lockout.

[Patty16]

Didn't they cap the number of season tickets at somewhere around 14,000 to ensure availability of mini-packs and individual tickets? Thought I remembered something like that from the season or two after the lockout.

 

 

They did.

[Kristian]

llc's don't have boards of directors, and i'm 99.9% sure there is no board for the sabres (ever heard of anyone being referred to as a director on the sabres' board? i haven't). there's an operating agreement that governs hockey wny llc and that spells out how quinn can be relieved of his role as managing partner. there's no telling what that agreement says.

 

all that said, if pegula is buying the team, we can be assured that the matter of quinn's ownership stake/management role is a piece of the puzzle.

 

 

+1.

 

Yes you're right, but what this really means is that the partners are "the board", and that Quinn, being a minority partner, can most likely be dismissed by Golisano pretty much at will.

 

I simply don't believe a man like Golisano hires someone, and even let's him get a piece of the team, without being 100% in control of when and if this someone goes.

 

That said, this is all speculation, I just have a hard time believing Quinn has any pull at all.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

 

 

playing to 97% capacity so far.

 

Right...so they "cap" season tickets at 14,825. The place holds 18,690. They have 18,222 average attendance. That means they sell 3397 out of 3865 seats available. But wouldn't those who were "shut out" of season tickets be gobbling up seats? Then there are the other 1.2 million people in western ny. I mean...you would think they like going to hockey games, right?

 

And to think the team has been so generous as to offer single game tickets anywhere from below season ticket price to $1 over season ticket price for over half of the games the first half of the season. Not to mention your family pack, holiday pack, Sabres Insider coupon codes, etc.

 

Interesting stuff....how those numbers all add up.

 

You wonder why these guys have been looking to sell the team? Go back to the conversation we had before the season on ticket renewals. Big thread on it.

[korab rules]

You gonna drive to Albany for us?

 

Everything Albany has is available online.

 

Hockey WNY: DOS listing

 

Niagara Frontier Hockey LP: DOS listing

 

Interesting facts: WNY Hockey is a domestic LLC formed in 2002. Niagara Frontier Hockey is a foreign LP registered in Delaware in 1988. They are both still listed as active, but that doesn't mean much of anything,

[nfreeman]

Golisano had the potential to turn into a great owner. He came flying right out of the box with the team doing so well, and he was eating up the attention. If the Sabres could have made a Cup, I could have seen him keeping things going. I see this all the time in horseracing, as it is an ego driven business. If a guy has success right off the bat even though he doesn't know much about the ins and outs, he is ready to rock and roll and get more horses and take more shots. Once the dream takes a blow, the patience runs thin if he doesn't have a true passion for the game. Tommy G was in the winner's circle getting his picture taken, everyone loved him and his team, and things were great. Once it was clear his horse couldn't win the Derby....it was time to pay attention to the costs of the other horses in the stable. You don't mind writing checks when your pony is in the papers everyday and pays you back and then some.

 

Pegula again, is real money. If he truly loves the game and wants to coddle his team, he will spend to the cap and not fret the bottom line. If it takes 3 years of losses to get to the Cup, it will be worth it. Now any reasonable person will call mercy after a certain timeperiod of failure, but he SHOULD have a high initial tolerance. I just hope he has others he trusts to bring in and make hockey decisions, because I do not believe Darcy and maybe even Ruff, understand what makes a prime athlete. Time and time again I have heard Pegula reference character in hockey players.....and we know he loved the Broad Street Bullies. That is 180 degrees from what we have seen here under this management team.

 

This team is currently on pace for missing the playoffs for the 3rd time in 4 years and 6th in 9 years. The only success in my mind has been that Golisano kept the team from moving. I appreciate that, but at the same time your house isn't worth much in Amherst when the foundation keeps sinking another 6 inches every year.

Pegula may be a better owner than TG -- I think it is everyone's fervent hope that he is. However, that wouldn't mean that TG has been a bad or even an average owner -- only that Pegula would be something like a top-5 owner.

 

Bottom line is that, as you point out, TG saved the team and kept it here (and this is certainly the most important thing he did), but he also funded operating losses for a couple of years up front, funded a payroll within shouting distance of the cap (a payroll which is now more than double where it was when he bought the team), kept ticket prices affordable, stabilized the franchise after a lengthy period of instability, didn't inject himself into the hockey side, oversaw an operation that rebuilt fan support to outstanding levels, and generally removed ownership as a concern.

 

Was he as good as Mike Illitch or Ted Leonsis? No, but there are and have been so many awful owners in the NHL (including in WNY) that I think those who criticize TG might not realize how fortunate the Sabres have been.