Ryan Miller

[spndnchz]

Why so many missing games?

 

Anyway, I'd like you to take two Digoxin and call me in the morning.

 

The footer may not show all the games for lack of space, but all the dots r there.

[Stoner]

The footer may not show all the games for lack of space, but all the dots r there.

 

Where are the five shutouts? :)

[Robviously]

I still don't get why people think Miller would be willing to play any less than he already does. The man is a competitor and wants to win. If Lindy asked him to play every game I bet he wouldn't think twice about it.

He's a pro athlete. None of these guys want to come out of games or give up playing time EVER.

 

That's why it's Lindy's job to tell him he needs to rest - the same way a baseball manager has to pull a pitcher out of a game when he's losing it, even if the pitcher flips out about it. You do it because it helps the team, even if it hurts the player's ego.

 

It's not a coincidence that the Sabres' best playoff run was 2006 -- the same year Miller missed time due to an injury (i.e. was forced to rest) during the regular season.

 

Running Miller into the ground last year won us the division....which led to a very exciting playoff run of exactly six games. Only a complete idiot would want to do the same thing again.

[spndnchz]

Where are the five shutouts? :)

 

It's been a while since I made that. I think I took out the bottom 5 and the top five games or something to that effect.

[Calvin]

Here's another opinion you'll like. Miller would rather win a gold medal for the U.S. than a Stanley Cup for the Sabres. It's really not a slam on him. He just loves USA Hockey more, that's all. It's in his blood.

That's absolutely true, but it's not just Miller. Just about any sportsman out there will want national pride ahead of their pro team. No big deal. Most players will give anywhere from 1-100% more effort when playing for their national colors.

[darksabre]

He's a pro athlete. None of these guys want to come out of games or give up playing time EVER.

 

That's why it's Lindy's job to tell him he needs to rest - the same way a baseball manager has to pull a pitcher out of a game when he's losing it, even if the pitcher flips out about it. You do it because it helps the team, even if it hurts the player's ego.

 

It's not a coincidence that the Sabres' best playoff run was 2006 -- the same year Miller missed time due to an injury (i.e. was forced to rest) during the regular season.

 

Running Miller into the ground last year won us the division....which led to a very exciting playoff run of exactly six games. Only a complete idiot would want to do the same thing again.

 

I don't see Marty Brodeur having any problems.

 

Comparing pitchers in baseball to goaltenders in hockey is apples to oranges. Pitching is extremely harmful to the human body. Scientific research has shown the detrimental damage that fast pitch baseball does. Goaltending uses the whole body; pitching is the overuse of 3 joints on one limb. Pitchers wear out because the act of pitching is harmful to the athlete. The athletic act of goaltending is not as inherently harmful outside of the act of actually getting hit with the puck.

 

If Ryan thinks and feels that he can play 70+ games, then let him. He's only going to build more and more stamina as the seasons go by. If he burns out at all this year, it will be later than last year, unless the team elects to completely phone it in for a season and he has to make 50 saves every game.

 

He's not going to have the same numbers every year. He will have ups and downs. And it will happen regardless of whether or not he plays 60 games or 80 games.

[shrader]

But are you a pro athlete?

 

In some of the most intense endurance sports, like marathon running and pro cycling, you have guys who are nothing but essentially skin and bone giving it their max for prolonged periods of time. A guy like Lance Armstrong didn't become a Tour de France winner until he came back from his cancer treatments, literally shredded to the bone.

 

He was definitely a bit lighter.

[spndnchz]

Hmmm. This coffee tastes a bit nutty....

[Stoner]

That's absolutely true, but it's not just Miller. Just about any sportsman out there will want national pride ahead of their pro team. No big deal. Most players will give anywhere from 1-100% more effort when playing for their national colors.

 

One question I had about Miller last season was whether he'd play like a man whose hair is on fire to start the season, then tail off. And that's basically what happened. Why it happened that way is open to debate, as always. I think the answer is pretty obvious.

 

Now, Tuukka Rask, who had better numbers than Miller last season, sort of went in the other direction. He even outplayed Miller by a nose in the playoffs.

[shrader]

Hmmm. This coffee tastes a bit nutty....

 

With you being an expert and all, I have to ask. Why do people always say they'd give the left one? Is the right one somehow better and far more necessary than the left one?

[spndnchz]

With you being an expert and all, I have to ask. Why do people always say they'd give the left one? Is the right one somehow better and far more necessary than the left one?

 

Most people would abandon logic for intuition. Thus, leaving the right testes intact allows for creativity and holistic thought. Something you guys would probably need if you only had one nut.

[spndnchz]

One question I had about Miller last season was whether he'd play like a man whose hair is on fire to start the season, then tail off. And that's basically what happened. Why it happened that way is open to debate, as always. I think the answer is pretty obvious.

 

Now, Tuukka Rask, who had better numbers than Miller last season, sort of went in the other direction. He even outplayed Miller by a nose in the playoffs.

 

You make it sound like he tailed off. Yet he became more consistent.

 

Games are games remaining not GP.

 

 

[Sabre Dance]

The last time I checked, you actually have to score goals to win a hockey game, not just prevent them. This is after all a TEAM sport and if the team is not playing as well in the second half of the season (or the Sabres' opponents began to play better as playoff time grew closer), that will have some impact on a goalie's stats. Look, we're not talking about Miller's GAA going up by 50%. It crept up a few tenths. If y'all remember, the Sabres played WAY too much in their own end all of last year, but especially in the stretch run. Did Miller let in a few more soft goals in the latter part of the season? Yeah, I guess. But if you are waiting for Miller to haul the entire Sabres' team onto his back and carry them all the way through the playoffs.... ain't gonna happen. I do agree that if he played less in the beginning of the season, he'd probably have more in the tank come playoff time. However, none of us are coaching this team.

Things could be worse. Think of the poor Islanders, who have a injury-prone goalie signed to a loonngg term contract (and a big one at that). We should feel blessed to have Miller. Now we just need the guys in front of him to raise their game to his level...

[Stoner]

The last time I checked, you actually have to score goals to win a hockey game, not just prevent them. This is after all a TEAM sport and if the team is not playing as well in the second half of the season (or the Sabres' opponents began to play better as playoff time grew closer), that will have some impact on a goalie's stats. Look, we're not talking about Miller's GAA going up by 50%. It crept up a few tenths. If y'all remember, the Sabres played WAY too much in their own end all of last year, but especially in the stretch run. Did Miller let in a few more soft goals in the latter part of the season? Yeah, I guess. But if you are waiting for Miller to haul the entire Sabres' team onto his back and carry them all the way through the playoffs.... ain't gonna happen. I do agree that if he played less in the beginning of the season, he'd probably have more in the tank come playoff time. However, none of us are coaching this team.

Things could be worse. Think of the poor Islanders, who have a injury-prone goalie signed to a loonngg term contract (and a big one at that). We should feel blessed to have Miller. Now we just need the guys in front of him to raise their game to his level...

 

I really wish we could look at scoring chances instead of shots on goals, but MIller faced 1141 SOG in 36 first half games and 1161 in 37 second half games.

[shrader]

I really wish we could look at scoring chances instead of shots on goals, but MIller faced 1141 SOG in 36 first half games and 1161 in 37 second half games.

 

It's completely unrelated to the topic, but I still hate the scoring chances stat. It's completely subjective. At least shots have a clear definition.

[Robviously]

I don't see Marty Brodeur having any problems.

You've got to be kidding. You're comparing Miller to a Hall of Famer and a guy who is possibly the best goalie of his generation? And just because that one guy can do it, Miller should be able to do it too??

 

Comparing pitchers in baseball to goaltenders in hockey is apples to oranges. Pitching is extremely harmful to the human body. Scientific research has shown the detrimental damage that fast pitch baseball does. Goaltending uses the whole body; pitching is the overuse of 3 joints on one limb. Pitchers wear out because the act of pitching is harmful to the athlete. The athletic act of goaltending is not as inherently harmful outside of the act of actually getting hit with the puck.

You missed the point: Fatigue is fatigue. There's a reason teams have back-up goalies and don't play one guy for all 82 regular season games.

 

If Ryan thinks and feels that he can play 70+ games, then let him. He's only going to build more and more stamina as the seasons go by. If he burns out at all this year, it will be later than last year, unless the team elects to completely phone it in for a season and he has to make 50 saves every game.

If he "thinks and feels" he can do it? Listen, all pro athletes "think and feel" that they're invincible and they can do anything. They're wrong. That's why we have coaches and managers to make those decisions.

 

And how is he still building stamina? Why would Miller still be getting stronger as he gets older?

 

Also, why would "50 saves every game" be a bad thing? According to your logic, it might make him stronger by helping him build up more stamina. Or maybe, because playing goalie isn't "inherently harmful", it wouldn't make any difference at all.

 

He's not going to have the same numbers every year. He will have ups and downs. And it will happen regardless of whether or not he plays 60 games or 80 games.

What? We know his best playoff run ever was 2006, where he played less during the regular season due to injury. Last season was probably his worst playoff performance. He got outplayed by a nobody in the first round. Was it a coincidence that it happened after he played in the Olympics and in a ton of regular season games?

 

If you actually think it wouldn't matter if we played Miller in 80 regular season games, you're nuts. Miller himself has said that having the night off helps him both mentally and physically during the season.

[Stoner]

It's completely unrelated to the topic, but I still hate the scoring chances stat. It's completely subjective. At least shots have a clear definition.

 

There's a little subjectivity in SOG too. Was the shooter's intent to score a goal?

 

I'm sure the scoring chance stat is very useful to the coaches. I'm not sure why they don't want to share it with the fans. The broadcast usually tracks it through two periods, but, you're right, there's never an explanation as to how they're counted. Nor do we ever see the total for the third period. Or any tracking of it from game to game, or month to month, or segment to segment, or season to season.

[NowDoYouBelieve]

You've got to be kidding. You're comparing Miller to a Hall of Famer and a guy who is possibly the best goalie of his generation? And just because that one guy can do it, Miller should be able to do it too??

 

 

You missed the point: Fatigue is fatigue. There's a reason teams have back-up goalies and don't play one guy for all 82 regular season games.

 

 

If he "thinks and feels" he can do it? Listen, all pro athletes "think and feel" that they're invincible and they can do anything. They're wrong. That's why we have coaches and managers to make those decisions.

 

And how is he still building stamina? Why would Miller still be getting stronger as he gets older?

 

Also, why would "50 saves every game" be a bad thing? According to your logic, it might make him stronger by helping him build up more stamina. Or maybe, because playing goalie isn't "inherently harmful", it wouldn't make any difference at all.

 

 

What? We know his best playoff run ever was 2006, where he played less during the regular season due to injury. Last season was probably his worst playoff performance. He got outplayed by a nobody in the first round. Was it a coincidence that it happened after he played in the Olympics and in a ton of regular season games?

 

If you actually think it wouldn't matter if we played Miller in 80 regular season games, you're nuts. Miller himself has said that having the night off helps him both mentally and physically during the season.

 

Tuukka Rask may not be a household name like Miller, but he sure as heck isn't a nobody in terms of skill.

[X. Benedict]

I don't think there there many people around here who would disagree Miller isn't capable of playing more than 60, maybe 65 games a year, but I never bought into the fact that it has anything to do with his frame.

 

 

Doug Mckenney's training doesn't emphasize much upper body strength ...mostly flexibility, core strength and explosiveness....

 

here's a good synopsis ...

 

http://www.mitchkorn.com/pdf/Off%20season%20training.pdf

 

it occurred to me a having a larger frame as a goaltender may be considered a long term liability with weight coming down into butterfly position, which leads to bum groins, and hip flexors like Dipietro and Luongo and Lundqvist. I can't remember Miller ever having a problem with either injury.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

But are you a pro athlete?

 

In some of the most intense endurance sports, like marathon running and pro cycling, you have guys who are nothing but essentially skin and bone giving it their max for prolonged periods of time. A guy like Lance Armstrong didn't become a Tour de France winner until he came back from his cancer treatments, literally shredded to the bone.

 

You can of course argue that he needs to weigh as little as possible to climb mountains successfully which is very true, however he still needs to have the endurance to race for 5 hours a day, for 21 days.

 

I'm not saying bulking up can't help Miller's game in some way, I personally have no idea. All I'm saying is that it's a myth that being skinny gives you a disadvantage endurance-wise, if anything the tradeoff of the lesser weight to haul around works in favor of increased endurance, rather than against it.

 

If Miller has endurance problems due to his weight, it's because something is wrong with his diet and he doesn't get the nutrition he needs to maintain his level of fitness. That's an entirely different matter, and in this case I agree - Being skinny gives you little to no margin for error before you pay the price.

 

We've had this discussion about a half dozen times, with statistics for all of the Stanley Cup teams in the past 3 decades. A guy like Brodeur is who you ride for 70+ games if anyone. He is built for it. He is built like a fire hydrant and has 40-50 pounds on Miller, being the same height. It is a phsyiological fact, and those willing to accept it at the highest level of athletic competition are usually the most successful. Bigger, and in peak physical condition, is better in sports which require power and fast twitch muscle to go along with endurance.

 

To say that pro sports organizations would all follow this truth if it worked is folly. Take the Buffalo Bills for instance. Drafting a player like Maybin over Orakpo is prime definition of the inability to recognize this basic law of nature. Hardy was another who had height, but not a low center of gravity, thus lacking power.

 

An NHL goalie needs power and endurance for his skillset. As competitions are piled on over time, the recovery rate for the bigger, as conditioned athlete, to his peak performance ability...comes much faster than for the smaller athlete. This is FACT. Maybe for many of the same reasons the Sabres don't believe in bigger, grittier players that also posses skill, they can't understand that they are literally letting their biggest asset in Miller, wilt on the vine by working him so much. This is not to say someone of Miller's build can NEVER win the Stanley Cup by having to play close to 100 games in a season, but you severely limit your percentages by doing so. Miller had his most solid season by far last year, and he has answered some of my questions as to whether or not he has the pure ability to win. But unless he is used wisely, it is a moot point.

 

Like I said, there are those employed in the highest offices of sports that don't understand this. I remember Wolfie (where have you been man?) and I breaking this down in detail in a previous thread showing how goalies that were sub 190lbs and had two hands full of Cup rings between them, had their worst playoff performances when worked at the 70+ game level. There are also plenty of examples of goalies with slighter builds that have won Cups, but they all played in the 40-65 game range.

 

This is such a simple solution, it KILLS me to watch the Sabres, year after year, send Miller out to the point of wasting away. I am convinced he is GOOD enough to win it all if surrounded by a decent enough team and a defense that can keep bodies off of him. But he has finite reserves. You use them up early, and you are in trouble.

 

Sadly, since Lindy and the organization can't see this, the best chance for the Sabres to win a Cup is for Miller to have a lengthy injury, say from December to March 1st. Give him 10 games to sharpen up, then ride the daylights out of him in the playoffs. This team has lightened up on some of their wusses, and yes, they still can use some more power and scoring up front, but you do have one of the top 5 goalies in the league WHEN HE IS ON TOP OF HIS GAME. As positive as the Olympics were for his mindset last year, they were just as easily another 6 games over 2 weeks that made it all the easier to expect them to get bounced out of the playoffs early on.

 

It's there for the taking.....get a freaking quality backup in here that you have to trust for 20 or so games. Space Miller's starts. Someone with an associates from ECC can put a plan together for the goalies. If the management and coaching is too stubborned to understand the simple laws of nature....then they get what they deserve. Too bad the fans don't.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Doug Mckenney's training doesn't emphasize much upper body strength ...mostly flexibility, core strength and explosiveness....

 

here's a good synopsis ...

 

http://www.mitchkorn.com/pdf/Off%20season%20training.pdf

 

it occurred to me a having a larger frame as a goaltender may be considered a long term liability with weight coming down into butterfly position, which leads to bum groins, and hip flexors like Dipietro and Luongo and Lundqvist. I can't remember Miller ever having a problem with either injury.

 

You can't change Miller's body. I do not advocate bulking him up because it defeats the purpose.

 

Control what you can.....his game log.

[Stoner]

We've had this discussion about a half dozen times, with statistics for all of the Stanley Cup teams in the past 3 decades. A guy like Brodeur is who you ride for 70+ games if anyone. He is built for it. He is built like a fire hydrant and has 40-50 pounds on Miller, being the same height. It is a phsyiological fact, and those willing to accept it at the highest level of athletic competition are usually the most successful. Bigger, and in peak physical condition, is better in sports which require power and fast twitch muscle to go along with endurance.

 

To say that pro sports organizations would all follow this truth if it worked is folly. Take the Buffalo Bills for instance. Drafting a player like Maybin over Orakpo is prime definition of the inability to recognize this basic law of nature. Hardy was another who had height, but not a low center of gravity, thus lacking power.

 

An NHL goalie needs power and endurance for his skillset. As competitions are piled on over time, the recovery rate for the bigger, as conditioned athlete, to his peak performance ability...comes much faster than for the smaller athlete. This is FACT. Maybe for many of the same reasons the Sabres don't believe in bigger, grittier players that also posses skill, they can't understand that they are literally letting their biggest asset in Miller, wilt on the vine by working him so much. This is not to say someone of Miller's build can NEVER win the Stanley Cup by having to play close to 100 games in a season, but you severely limit your percentages by doing so. Miller had his most solid season by far last year, and he has answered some of my questions as to whether or not he has the pure ability to win. But unless he is used wisely, it is a moot point.

 

Like I said, there are those employed in the highest offices of sports that don't understand this. I remember Wolfie (where have you been man?) and I breaking this down in detail in a previous thread showing how goalies that were sub 190lbs and had two hands full of Cup rings between them, had their worst playoff performances when worked at the 70+ game level. There are also plenty of examples of goalies with slighter builds that have won Cups, but they all played in the 40-65 game range.

 

This is such a simple solution, it KILLS me to watch the Sabres, year after year, send Miller out to the point of wasting away. I am convinced he is GOOD enough to win it all if surrounded by a decent enough team and a defense that can keep bodies off of him. But he has finite reserves. You use them up early, and you are in trouble.

 

Sadly, since Lindy and the organization can't see this, the best chance for the Sabres to win a Cup is for Miller to have a lengthy injury, say from December to March 1st. Give him 10 games to sharpen up, then ride the daylights out of him in the playoffs. This team has lightened up on some of their wusses, and yes, they still can use some more power and scoring up front, but you do have one of the top 5 goalies in the league WHEN HE IS ON TOP OF HIS GAME. As positive as the Olympics were for his mindset last year, they were just as easily another 6 games over 2 weeks that made it all the easier to expect them to get bounced out of the playoffs early on.

 

It's there for the taking.....get a freaking quality backup in here that you have to trust for 20 or so games. Space Miller's starts. Someone with an associates from ECC can put a plan together for the goalies. If the management and coaching is too stubborned to understand the simple laws of nature....then they get what they deserve. Too bad the fans don't.

 

Good post. It still boggles my mind that Miller played in eight of the last 11 regular season games.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Good post. It still boggles my mind that Miller played in eight of the last 11 regular season games.

 

I know I can hyperbolize at times, but I have made a good living and know plenty of people that are at the top of their field in different sports that understand you can't overwork something that isn't built to be overworked. Heck...even an HVAC guy can relate to this concept. Put an AC with too little power on a house and overwork it....you're burned out in no time. You can get by with it in Buffalo possibly, but not South Florida.

 

I can only speculate as to why the Sabres still haven't learned. Is it because Lindy had Hasek? Hasek is a freak of nature and possibly the most flexible, if not best goalie to ever play the game. When Secretariat comes to your barn, and you train and expect every horse you run after that to be like Secretariat....you are asking for trouble.

 

Then we have Darcy who still hasn't accepted the fact that there are dozens of skilled hockey players out there that have size and grit. I am thinking that he may be the one that doesn't understand the physical and physiological aspects of his own sport.

 

You add in Quinn who probably is pressuring the other two for an extra home playoff game in the 1st round and the chance to raise another meaningless banner so he can sell some T-shirts.....and there is the trifecta.

 

That is only speculation on my part, but the results are fact.

 

If I ever had a beer with Lindy, as a fan and someone who understands athletics, I would beg him to try and understand the concept. If Miller NEEDS to be overworked to keep his focus, then you are screwed. It is a mental thing and will never resolve itself.

 

I want to root for this team. The wusses have slowly been departing the SS Soupy. The learning curve has been so slow though that Miller will be 35 by the time they figure this out.

[shrader]

There's a little subjectivity in SOG too. Was the shooter's intent to score a goal?

 

I'm sure the scoring chance stat is very useful to the coaches. I'm not sure why they don't want to share it with the fans. The broadcast usually tracks it through two periods, but, you're right, there's never an explanation as to how they're counted. Nor do we ever see the total for the third period. Or any tracking of it from game to game, or month to month, or segment to segment, or season to season.

 

I'm not sure where you're going with the first line. If it's headed towards the net, it's a shot. Intent doesn't matter. I can see how there might be some subjectivity in crediting a player with a shot, but from the goalie's point of view, that doesn't matter.

 

And now that you mention those official stats (if there are official scoring chance stats), I've seen all sorts of official stats sheets from college games and I definitely have never seen that one shared. The shot charts they keep are really cool, but there's nothing on it that could possibly designate a "scoring chance".

[X. Benedict]

A starting goaltender, if healthy, should be able to play between 60-70 games.

I don't see why Miller is any exception.

 

Generally, Goalies have the sensation that they are sharper with the more work they get. Miller tends to complain not about fatigue, but too much game time cutting into his practice time, where I believe he says he works harder than games.

 

I'd like to see the backup goaltender get enough starts to stay sharp. Less than 3-4 a month makes it tough.