What if Vanek became an Oiler?

[Taro T]

All of the above. I hold Vanek to a much higher standard than I hold myself. He's a professional athlete. He could make $5 mil for three years and retire happily if he wanted to. I don't want to get into the whole argument here about whether or not athletes deserve as much money as they make, but my point is that he really put the organization in a tough spot by signing that offer sheet. The organization who drafted him, developed him, and allowed him ice time to make a name for himself -- i know that deep down this all really means nothing, because it's true for any prospect entering the NHL, but where's the loyalty? Now he's rich, has a huge ego, and has delivered nothing. "Blah blah he needs a real center." $10 million players better figure out how to score goals and win by themselves.

 

He'll say all the right things to the media about how he loves buffalo, he loves his team mates, yada yada yada -- if he legit cared about bringing a cup to Buffalo, he wouldn't have robbed the team of 1/5th their payroll.

 

Having never been in a position to make a decision like that, I can't tell you for certain what I would have done. Talking about careers that your average joe such as you and I would possess doesn't really relate; normal people need that money to live comfortably and try to make the best out of life. When you're making millions of dollars a year playing hockey to win a Stanley Cup, I think I would have given a pay cut some consideration, not only just to play for a contender (at the time), but to allow them some money to recuperate from losing two 30 goal scoring captains.

 

Maybe saying no to $10 in favor of $5 is unrealistic, but he could have worked with Darcy to get a similar contract with a lower cap hit and allowed Buffalo some breathing room.

 

Not that any of that really matters since Darcy wouldn't have signed anybody notable, but just my thoughts on the matter. carry on

Well, at least you admit to being irrational about this issue. ;)

 

Saying no to $49MM to settle for $15MM is extremely unrealistic. That’s not a home town discount, that’s a fire sale. Had Boychuck’s skate come down just a little bit harder on Vanek’s leg, his career might have been over. (Boychuck didn’t step on him; when he was getting back up, his 2nd leg pushed off toward the ice but slid under Vanek’s front leg and caught the back leg squarely. A total fluke injury, but one that could have been significantly worse than it was.) Oddly enough, Boychuck's stick met Tom's knee and his skate met Tom's leg right at the time the $15MM contract you’d’ve had him signing was expiring.

 

Vanek didn’t “rob” the Sabres of 1/5th of their payroll. When the Sabres stated that they’d match any and all offers, they pretty much guaranteed that someone would make an apparently outrageous offer. What if it turned out that Quinn was bluffing about that? Should Vanek have gone and requested the Oilers provide a smaller figure (or fewer years or both) on the offer sheet so that he could give the Sabres a home town discount; the same offer sheet that he didn’t know a priori would be matched? Playing Devil’s advocate, what would that have gotten him, should the Sabres have NOT matched the offer sheet?

 

I can’t say that I’m thrilled about what Vanek signed for, but it isn’t on him; the circumstances that led to his situation were very much fueled by prior missteps by management.

[thesportsbuff]

You've taken enough abuse on the second paragraph.. so I'll stick to the first.

 

The plan going into the post season was to sign Drury, let Briere walk, and sign Vanek to a reasonable (3-4 million?) deal. You must remember Darcy, LQ, et al thought Drury was locked up and didn't really expect such an outrageous offer sheet to come in for Vanek. I would say that Drury and Vanek were priorities 1 and 1a and if at all possible these players were going to be on the team next year. Darcy did say that they matched the offer to Drury but he decided to leave (which proves my point) and Vanek's deal was matched as well.

 

To say that keeping Vanek was simply to save some face is just not correct. Darcy's hand was forced by Vanek's agent for the amount, but Darcy has always put a much bigger value on young players and is much more willing to let a player walked after the age of 30.

 

As far as I'm concerned your whole theory about his off-season plan is just hear say, and you're really the first person I've heard say it. :blink: I know what you're getting at -- certainly a young superstar prospect is more valuable than a middle-aged/almost-over-the-hill superstar. I remember hearing that Drury was the priority, but I highly doubt he planned on letting Briere walk. I think he intended on trying to keep all three, and it back-fired. If he has stated otherwise, then prove me wrong.

 

I guess I don't really get what your argument is. It's not like I'm saying "Vanek sucks the only reason he's still around is cause the fans love him and we lost Chris and Danny." But had we re-signed our two co-captains there's no way he matches that offer-sheet, IE my original point, that the only reason Regier felt compelled to match such a ludicrous offer was because of losing Chris and Danny.

 

You think if we had been able to keep Drury and Briere that Darcy would be willing to shell out $10 mil for Vanek? I highly, highly, highly doubt it.

[Taro T]

As far as I'm concerned your whole theory about his off-season plan is just hear say, and you're really the first person I've heard say it. :blink: I know what you're getting at -- certainly a young superstar prospect is more valuable than a middle-aged/almost-over-the-hill superstar. I remember hearing that Drury was the priority, but I highly doubt he planned on letting Briere walk. I think he intended on trying to keep all three, and it back-fired. If he has stated otherwise, then prove me wrong.

 

I guess I don't really get what your argument is. It's not like I'm saying "Vanek sucks the only reason he's still around is cause the fans love him and we lost Chris and Danny." But had we re-signed our two co-captains there's no way he matches that offer-sheet, IE my original point, that the only reason Regier felt compelled to match such a ludicrous offer was because of losing Chris and Danny.

 

You think if we had been able to keep Drury and Briere that Darcy would be willing to shell out $10 mil for Vanek? I highly, highly, highly doubt it.

But there was no expectation that they'd be able to sign both captains. They knew Briere would want and get too much to keep both him and Drury. Because they'd had a deal worked out early in the season w/ Drury that Tom sat on too long, they thought they'd be able to sign Drury when FA opened.

 

Obviously, the team wouldn't have matched the offer sheet for Vanek if they'd've signed both Briere and Drury. But, Edmonton probably doesn't submit that offer sheet if both Drury and Briere are signed. (They'd probably have submitted one that was for less $'s and which the Sabres still would have had a hard time matching because the team would have had minimum $10.5MM tied up in cap $'s to both Chris and Danny.)

 

Heck, the offer sheet very likely would have been lower if Chris had signed and Danny walked, because there would have been NO reason for the Sabres to say "we will match any and all offers to Vanek." The Oiler offer would have very likely been a LITTLE lower as they'd have expected there was a strong possibility that they might get Vanek in that situation.

[thesportsbuff]

Well, at least you admit to being irrational about this issue. ;)

 

Saying no to $49MM to settle for $15MM is extremely unrealistic. That’s not a home town discount, that’s a fire sale. Had Boychuck’s skate come down just a little bit harder on Vanek’s leg, his career might have been over. (Boychuck didn’t step on him; when he was getting back up, his 2nd leg pushed off toward the ice but slid under Vanek’s front leg and caught the back leg squarely. A total fluke injury, but one that could have been significantly worse than it was.) Oddly enough, Boychuck's stick met Tom's knee and his skate met Tom's leg right at the time the $15MM contract you’d’ve had him signing was expiring.

 

Vanek didn’t “rob” the Sabres of 1/5th of their payroll. When the Sabres stated that they’d match any and all offers, they pretty much guaranteed that someone would make an apparently outrageous offer. What if it turned out that Quinn was bluffing about that? Should Vanek have gone and requested the Oilers provide a smaller figure (or fewer years or both) on the offer sheet so that he could give the Sabres a home town discount; the same offer sheet that he didn’t know a priori would be matched? Playing Devil’s advocate, what would that have gotten him, should the Sabres have NOT matched the offer sheet?

 

I can’t say that I’m thrilled about what Vanek signed for, but it isn’t on him; the circumstances that led to his situation were very much fueled by prior missteps by management.

 

The Boychuck/injury situation is a pretty weak/unfair argument. I understand what you mean, it's nice to have that security, but we're talking a kid with two-years of experience at the time. Fluke injuries can happen, and if they do so-be it -- players don't base their contracts on "what if I get injured?" If that were the case everybody in the NHL would have a 10 year contract.

 

As for your second paragraph, this isn't a rip on you, but I just really don't understand what you're saying. Why would Vanek have requested anything from the Oilers in order to give the Sabres a home town discount? What I suggested he could have/should have done is, once he received this crazy offer sheet from Edmonton, told Darcy that he intended to sign it unless he and the Sabres could come to an agreement -- maybe a middle point between $4 mil a year and $8 mil a year, realizing that if Buffalo was to match Edmonton's deal, they would be in problems down the road with Pominville/Roy/Connolly/Miller contracts on the horizon. This gives Darcy the flexibility to sign Vanek while also actively pursuing other UFAs to build a contender. Instead, he signed the offer sheet -- it was either Buffalo take him and his loaded contract or Edmonton take him and his loaded contract.

 

The point I was trying to make in my original post is this: Vanek was a young kid who had a good year and a great year in the league. Two years experience is a long way from being considered a great player. He's not worth the amount of money he makes (then or now) and should have realized that by accepting that offer sheet he was hurting HIS team and HIS team's chances of winning.

[thesportsbuff]

But there was no expectation that they'd be able to sign both captains. They knew Briere would want and get too much to keep both him and Drury. Because they'd had a deal worked out early in the season w/ Drury that Tom sat on too long, they thought they'd be able to sign Drury when FA opened.

 

Obviously, the team wouldn't have matched the offer sheet for Vanek if they'd've signed both Briere and Drury. But, Edmonton probably doesn't submit that offer sheet if both Drury and Briere are signed. (They'd probably have submitted one that was for less $'s and which the Sabres still would have had a hard time matching because the team would have had minimum $10.5MM tied up in cap $'s to both Chris and Danny.)

 

Heck, the offer sheet very likely would have been lower if Chris had signed and Danny walked, because there would have been NO reason for the Sabres to say "we will match any and all offers to Vanek." The Oiler offer would have very likely been a LITTLE lower as they'd have expected there was a strong possibility that they might get Vanek in that situation.

 

Until you provide proof that the Sabres never intended on signing both captains, your argument is just as moot as this thread. I don't recall ever hearing that Buffalo didn't plan on keeping Briere, and that's what your whole argument is based on -- when all I'm saying is Regier wouldn't have matched that offer if not for losing Briere and Drury. So yes, it was a saving face type of move, even though he did want to keep Vanek, no way for that money if not for the aforementioned losses.

[darksabre]

So Briere was evil for heading to arbitration yet Dumont is perfectly ok even though he did the same exact thing that season?

 

Don't you bring my JP into this, I loves him.

[Taro T]

The Boychuck/injury situation is a pretty weak/unfair argument. I understand what you mean, it's nice to have that security, but we're talking a kid with two-years of experience at the time. Fluke injuries can happen, and if they do so-be it -- players don't base their contracts on "what if I get injured?" If that were the case everybody in the NHL would have a 10 year contract.

 

As for your second paragraph, this isn't a rip on you, but I just really don't understand what you're saying. Why would Vanek have requested anything from the Oilers in order to give the Sabres a home town discount? What I suggested he could have/should have done is, once he received this crazy offer sheet from Edmonton, told Darcy that he intended to sign it unless he and the Sabres could come to an agreement -- maybe a middle point between $4 mil a year and $8 mil a year, realizing that if Buffalo was to match Edmonton's deal, they would be in problems down the road with Pominville/Roy/Connolly/Miller contracts on the horizon. This gives Darcy the flexibility to sign Vanek while also actively pursuing other UFAs to build a contender. Instead, he signed the offer sheet -- it was either Buffalo take him and his loaded contract or Edmonton take him and his loaded contract.

 

The point I was trying to make in my original post is this: Vanek was a young kid who had a good year and a great year in the league. Two years experience is a long way from being considered a great player. He's not worth the amount of money he makes (then or now) and should have realized that by accepting that offer sheet he was hurting HIS team and HIS team's chances of winning.

In order to get a 10 year contract, you have to have 2 parties willing to sign the contract. You sometimes get that, but oftentimes don't. At least not at $'s that are agreeable to both parties. There is absolutely no way that a player will settle for a guaranteed $15MM when he has a guaranteed $49MM staring him in the face.

 

As for YOUR second paragraph, how exactly do you propose Vanek go to the Sabres with a claim of "I have an offer, I just haven't signed it yet?" There is no way ANY GM in the league, much less the most conservative GM in the entire league, will believe an agent when he tells them "really, I've got an offer for $X over y years; but if you give my client 70% of $x for 1/2 y years, we'll sign it in a heartbeat." That is why offer sheets have to be SIGNED, without a signature they are simply the word of an AGENT. (And everybody KNOWS that an agent would NEVER lie to a GM in order to get extra money in his pocket. :doh: )

 

And the $7MM cap hit DIDN'T cause problems with signing ANY of the guys you mentioned. Or did I just forget about the Sabres not have signed one of them to a new deal post-Vanek's deal?

 

And while I may agree with some of the sentiment in your 3rd paragraph, there is NO WAY a rational human being in Vanek's position agrees with it. (And I think it's safe to say Stamkos is a great player after only 2 years, and that Ovie was a great player 2 years into his pro career (and he still is).)

 

And Vanek's contract isn't keeping the Sabres from getting another player. The Sabres HAVE cap space. A lack of bringing in a true #1 C or RW, or a shutdown D-man isn't the effect of having signed Vanek.

 

I'm sorry, but the more you discuss this, the more I tend to believe that you weren't just exaggerating when you implied that you were viewing this emotionally rather than rationally (at least about this particular issue). ;)

 

Until you provide proof that the Sabres never intended on signing both captains, your argument is just as moot as this thread. I don't recall ever hearing that Buffalo didn't plan on keeping Briere, and that's what your whole argument is based on -- when all I'm saying is Regier wouldn't have matched that offer if not for losing Briere and Drury. So yes, it was a saving face type of move, even though he did want to keep Vanek, no way for that money if not for the aforementioned losses.

The search tool is your friend, my friend. No point in rehashing discussionS that took place 3 years ago. :beer:

[thesportsbuff]

 

The search tool is your friend, my friend. No point in rehashing discussionS that took place 3 years ago. :beer:

 

In that case, you're in the wrong thread to begin with. :beer:

[jimiVbaby]

In that case, you're in the wrong thread to begin with. :beer:

That was kinda funny.