Wild GM loses his mind

[tom webster]

I like Koivu but this deals seems ridiculous

 

 

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=327566

[carpandean]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see this as being that bad; certainly been far worse in recent years. Less than $7 million per for what will be a 28 year old (when his contract kicks in), 6'2", 200lbs, top-line center, who is strong offensively, very good defensively, excellent on faceoffs, and a proven leader in their locker room? Doesn't sound totally out of whack to me. They may regret it in the last couple of years if he has a major decline near 35, but I doubt that they'll think twice about it for most of that contract.

 

Care to guess what would have been thrown at him next Summer if he reached free agency? Heck, think about what kind of numbers the fantasy GMs would have been throwing around here if he had been on the market this Summer.

 

I think part of the problem for people is that he had a slow start to his career, but he has grown substantially over the past few years.

[Two or less]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see this as being that bad; certainly been far worse in recent years. Less than $7 million per for what will be a 28 year old (when his contract kicks in), 6'2", 200lbs, top-line center, who is strong offensively, very good defensively, excellent on faceoffs, and a proven leader in their locker room? Doesn't sound totally out of whack to me. They may regret it in the last couple of years if he has a major decline near 35, but I doubt that they'll think twice about it for most of that contract.

 

Care to guess what would have been thrown at him next Summer if he reached free agency? Heck, think about what kind of numbers the fantasy GMs would have been throwing around here if he had been on the market this Summer.

 

I think it's a horrid deal however, the Wild had to do it because that is where the market is at for top tier centers. If he hit the open market, he would probably get more from someone else. Just look at how much money Danny Briere, Chris Drury and Scott Gomez got in the new CBA. However, this kind of deal just smells that the NHL is nearing another lock-out pretty soon. I think Pierre LeBrun posted tonight on twitter that many owners are trying to get the cap down to $48 million pretty soon down the road.

[tom webster]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see this as being that bad; certainly been far worse in recent years. Less than $7 million per for what will be a 28 year old (when his contract kicks in), 6'2", 200lbs, top-line center, who is strong offensively, very good defensively, excellent on faceoffs, and a proven leader in their locker room? Doesn't sound totally out of whack to me. They may regret it in the last couple of years if he has a major decline near 35, but I doubt that they'll think twice about it for most of that contract.

 

Care to guess what would have been thrown at him next Summer if he reached free agency? Heck, think about what kind of numbers the fantasy GMs would have been throwing around here if he had been on the market this Summer.

 

 

I think you saw a more conservative league this year. Teams that have the cash are running into cap issues and money doesn't seem to be running high. On the other hand, Plekanec did get $5 million so maybe $6.75 isn't out of whack. Still, my initial reaction was Wow!

[VansTheMans]

Ridiculous.

 

Alot of wasted money. He wouldn't even fetch that in the open market.

 

I'm stunned.

[FogBat]

If it wasn't for the offer sheet that Kevin Lowe put on Thomas Vanek a few years ago, he certainly wouldn't have received the contract that he did. Darcy would have NEVER opened up OSP's wallet like that.

 

I can see why Fletcher did that. He wouldn't want another good player get away (and Darcy still hasn't learned his lesson). It is quite a bit on the high side, though.

[Kristian]

If it wasn't for the offer sheet that Kevin Lowe put on Thomas Vanek a few years ago, he certainly wouldn't have received the contract that he did. Darcy would have NEVER opened up OSP's wallet like that.

 

I can see why Fletcher did that. He wouldn't want another good player get away (and Darcy still hasn't learned his lesson). It is quite a bit on the high side, though.

 

And that contract isn't even half as bad as the Pominville contract.

 

At least Vanek has shown that he can be a top offensive threat in this league. All Pominville has shown is that he can take forever to wind up a slapper and hit the shinpads of the guy in front of him.

[FogBat]

And that contract isn't even half as bad as the Pominville contract.

Crap! I forgot about that breed of albatross. That's the kind of reminder we don't need.

[Stoner]

I like Koivu but this deals seems ridiculous

 

 

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=327566

 

You've been a Sabre fan/denfeder of the status quo for too long. Free your mind.

[static70]

Ridiculous.

 

Alot of wasted money. He wouldn't even fetch that in the open market.

 

I'm stunned.

I agree.

I wonder, was this contract front end loaded?

[Guest Sloth]

And that contract isn't even half as bad as the Pominville contract.

 

At least Vanek has shown that he can be a top offensive threat in this league. All Pominville has shown is that he can take forever to wind up a slapper and hit the shinpads of the guy in front of him.

 

Pomminstein would be putting up much better numbers if he had a center who could actually set him up. The guy often has to take poor scoring chances because that is all he is given.

Vanek is amongst the top in the NHL in putting the puck in the net, but I gurantee his numbers would also go up if he had a true 1st line center.

 

As a somewhat side note, I truly believe if Vanek didn't get injured against the Bruins, the Sabres would've at least made the 2nd round. Not sure if they would've gone to the Eastern Conference Finals, though. Buffalo wasn't built as a playoff team last year.

[carpandean]

I agree.

I wonder, was this contract front end loaded?

It's actually very strangely loaded, which I have more of a problem with than the average amount. He makes $5.4 million each year with a bonus of $1.89 million every other year and a double bonus in the final year. I don't get that part at all.

 

Darcy said that we have two of the top-20 centers in the league and we all, correctly, jumped on him for not considering all the other facets of the game. Koivu was 11th in points amongst centers last year, but on top of that, as I said above, he also has a reputation of being fiercely competitive, is a leader in the locker room, is very strong on faceoffs, is bigger and plays a harder (can't call him really physical, but he's definitely not soft) game than Connolly or Roy. Sure, the Wild probably had to give him a little more to keep from letting another key player leave, but compared to contracts that we've seen handed out since the lockout, his is hardly shockingly bad (bonus terms, aside.) If I were their GM, I probably would have tried to tack on a few years with low salaries to get the cap hit down, but $6.75 million is not terrible. Get him some real wingers and see what happens to his production.

[Kristian]

Pomminstein would be putting up much better numbers if he had a center who could actually set him up. The guy often has to take poor scoring chances because that is all he is given.

Vanek is amongst the top in the NHL in putting the puck in the net, but I gurantee his numbers would also go up if he had a true 1st line center.

 

As a somewhat side note, I truly believe if Vanek didn't get injured against the Bruins, the Sabres would've at least made the 2nd round. Not sure if they would've gone to the Eastern Conference Finals, though. Buffalo wasn't built as a playoff team last year.

 

Buffalo's not built as a playoff team this year either.

 

As long as they rely on Connolly, Roy and Pominville to produce come crunch time, they're going to be disappointed as neither have what it takes to play "big" in the big game.

[thesportsbuff]

I think it's a horrid deal however, the Wild had to do it because that is where the market is at for top tier centers. If he hit the open market, he would probably get more from someone else. Just look at how much money Danny Briere, Chris Drury and Scott Gomez got in the new CBA. However, this kind of deal just smells that the NHL is nearing another lock-out pretty soon. I think Pierre LeBrun posted tonight on twitter that many owners are trying to get the cap down to $48 million pretty soon down the road.

 

First, there is no way he would have got more on the open market. Second, Chris and Danny's contracts have absolutely nothing to do with this guy. They actually produced on the ice and earned their contracts by scoring 30+ goals a year. This guy has done nothing significant, definitely nothing worth spending that type of money on.

 

edit: To clarify, I do think Briere and Drury were overpaid, but not grossly. In retrospect, sure, but at the time I would have had no problem with them making 6.5 a piece.

[nfreeman]

If it wasn't for the offer sheet that Kevin Lowe put on Thomas Vanek a few years ago, he certainly wouldn't have received the contract that he did. Darcy would have NEVER opened up OSP's wallet like that.

 

I can see why Fletcher did that. He wouldn't want another good player get away (and Darcy still hasn't learned his lesson). It is quite a bit on the high side, though.

I'll note again Pommer's contract here, which I think, like Koivu's contract, was an instance of a GM overpaying out of a need to prevent another good player from leaving his team.

 

I don't agree that DR hasn't learned his lesson. I think letting Tallinder and Lydman go was the right move. They just aren't worth the money or the budget room for the Sabres (I say this still desperately hoping they will use that cash to bring in a forward, though).

[carpandean]

Second, Chris and Danny's contracts have absolutely nothing to do with this guy. They actually produced on the ice and earned their contracts by scoring 30+ goals a year. This guy has done nothing significant, definitely nothing worth spending that type of money on.

Gomez, on the other hand, had one productive year right after the lockout, but otherwise had produced less in every other season he had played than Koivu has produced in the last two seasons and got more money. Also, those three received their contracts when the cap was going to be $50.3 million, whereas this coming year, it will be $59 million.

 

This is definitely not a great deal negotiated by their GM and certainly includes a little bit of "can't let another one get away" inflation, but it is far from the worst contract we've seen.

[static70]

It's actually very strangely loaded, which I have more of a problem with than the average amount. He makes $5.4 million each year with a bonus of $1.89 million every other year and a double bonus in the final year. I don't get that part at all.

 

Darcy said that we have two of the top-20 centers in the league and we all, correctly, jumped on him for not considering all the other facets of the game. Koivu was 11th in points amongst centers last year, but on top of that, as I said above, he also has a reputation of being fiercely competitive, is a leader in the locker room, is very strong on faceoffs, is bigger and plays a harder (can't call him really physical, but he's definitely not soft) game than Connolly or Roy. Sure, the Wild probably had to give him a little more to keep from letting another key player leave, but compared to contracts that we've seen handed out since the lockout, his is hardly shockingly bad (bonus terms, aside.) If I were their GM, I probably would have tried to tack on a few years with low salaries to get the cap hit down, but $6.75 million is not terrible. Get him some real wingers and see what happens to his production.

I can see him going to 85+ points with a line mate or two that are talented.

Thanks for the contract info. I was wondering if it was a Vanek type deal, front end high then panning out the remainder of the years. The bonuses are strange, thats for sure.

[spndnchz]

While me thinks Pommers contract was a bit much at the time with this contract for Koivu it seems pretty good.

 

All you guys think they overpaid for Pommer, have you actually compared side by side the numbers for Pommer vs Koivu? I think you'd b surprised.

[OverPowerYou]

While me thinks Pommers contract was a bit much at the time with this contract for Koivu it seems pretty good.

 

All you guys think they overpaid for Pommer, have you actually compared side by side the numbers for Pommer vs Koivu? I think you'd b surprised.

 

I just looked at it. Koivu has played just about the same number of years as Pominville, and he (Koivu) does not have one single 30 goal season, whereas Pominville consistently scores 20-30 goals a year, and is dominating Koivu in points.

[carpandean]

I just looked at it. Koivu has played just about the same number of years as Pominville, and he (Koivu) does not have one single 30 goal season, whereas Pominville consistently scores 20-30 goals a year, and is dominating Koivu in points.

:blink: Koivu has had more points in each of the last two seasons (not to mention that their goal production has been similar.) Koivu has also improved over the last few years, while Pommer has regressed.

 

Pommer is not way overpaid based on production and when you consider that he is pretty strong defensively, one could argue that he's not overpaid at all. What makes us all question his contract is that he's a soft player on an a soft team. Add him to a team that overall is much less soft and few would complain about him at all. It's about balance; which the Sabres lack. Koivu is not extremely physical, nor is he nearly as soft as Pommer. He may not bang, but he battles.

 

I would also add that when it comes to scoring-line centers vs. scoring-line wingers, I would gladly pay the extra $1.5 million per year for the center with comparable production, especially when that center is very strong on the dot and a proven leader on your team.

[spndnchz]

:blink: Koivu has had more points in each of the last two seasons (not to mention that their goal production has been similar.) Koivu has also improved over the last few years, while Pommer has regressed.

 

Pommer is not way overpaid based on production and when you consider that he is pretty strong defensively, one could argue that he's not overpaid at all. What makes us all question his contract is that he's a soft player on an a soft team. Add him to a team that overall is much less soft and few would complain about him at all. It's about balance; which the Sabres lack. Koivu is not extremely physical, nor is he nearly as soft as Pommer. He may not bang, but he battles.

 

I would also add that when it comes to scoring-line centers vs. scoring-line wingers, I would gladly pay the extra $1.5 million per year for the center with comparable production, especially when that center is very strong on the dot and a proven leader on your team.

 

Thanx 4 proving my point.

[shrader]

Gomez, on the other hand, had one productive year right after the lockout, but otherwise had produced less in every other season he had played than Koivu has produced in the last two seasons and got more money. Also, those three received their contracts when the cap was going to be $50.3 million, whereas this coming year, it will be $59 million.

 

This is definitely not a great deal negotiated by their GM and certainly includes a little bit of "can't let another one get away" inflation, but it is far from the worst contract we've seen.

 

I think the "can't let another one go" angle is overplayed a bit. Yes, Fletcher was the GM when Gaborik left, but that grave was dug over the last several years of the Risebrough-Lemaire reign of terror up in Minnesota. That loss didn't fall on his shoulders. That's also something that needs to be factored in when we're comparing Koivu's numbers to certain other players. Up until this year, he was stuck in that abysmal system that Lemaire ran (and ran Gaborik out of town with).

[carpandean]

I think the "can't let another one go" angle is overplayed a bit. Yes, Fletcher was the GM when Gaborik left, but that grave was dug over the last several years of the Risebrough-Lemaire reign of terror up in Minnesota. That loss didn't fall on his shoulders.

I didn't mean to suggest that he, personally, had to show he could keep a quality player, but rather that the team needed to show that things really have changed. Think about all of the anti-Bills discussion. New GM, new coach, but the team is still (supposedly) doing the same bad things. Sometimes, the organization has provide a signal of real change.

[shrader]

I didn't mean to suggest that he, personally, had to show he could keep a quality player, but rather that the team needed to show that things really have changed. Think about all of the anti-Bills discussion. New GM, new coach, but the team is still (supposedly) doing the same bad things. Sometimes, the organization has provide a signal of real change.

 

Yeah, that's fair. I haven't gotten the feel from Wild fans that they think of Fletcher in that "more of the same" line of thought though. But yeah, if there are a few out there, this will thin out that crowd a bit.

 

Oh, and I just looked at the structure of that deal and just like you, I am incredibly confused. That just might be the strangest contract I've ever seen. He's young enough that he should see the end of that contract, but even if they did expect him to retire early, why drive up the cap hit with that last year salary of 9+ million?

[ECHL]

I just looked at it. Koivu has played just about the same number of years as Pominville, and he (Koivu) does not have one single 30 goal season, whereas Pominville consistently scores 20-30 goals a year, and is dominating Koivu in points.

 

I think Koivu to Pomminstein is apples to oranges for comparisons. The natural comparison is Conally as they are both pivots and have health issues. Head and knees. I don't think Koivu will be skating to well in 7 years but Koivu is solid just not the guy to build a team from. Saku has knee problems too so it is genetical maybe.