Season tickets

[spndnchz]

The Buffalo Sabres announced today that the team has capped the number of season tickets for the 2010-2011 season at 14,825 and had a renewal rate of 98% from last year. In addition, there are currently over 1,600 members of the Blue and Gold Club which is comprised of individuals on a waiting list for season tickets.

 

Full article here.

 

Wow a whole 300 people didn't renew. Musta moved out of town, and took his 299 friends with him. Ba dum dum.

[Stoner]

The Buffalo Sabres announced today that the team has capped the number of season tickets for the 2010-2011 season at 14,825 and had a renewal rate of 98% from last year. In addition, there are currently over 1,600 members of the Blue and Gold Club which is comprised of individuals on a waiting list for season tickets.

 

Full article here.

 

Wow a whole 300 people didn't renew. Musta moved out of town, and took his 299 friends with him. Ba dum dum.

 

I wouldn't sneeze at losing 300 season ticket holders.

 

“Our season ticket holders have been a crucial part of the business success of the Buffalo Sabres in recent years,” said Chief Operating Officer Dan DiPofi.

 

TW, note the necessary adjective -- "business."

[thesportsbuff]

The Buffalo Sabres announced today that the team has capped the number of season tickets for the 2010-2011 season at 14,825 and had a renewal rate of 98% from last year. In addition, there are currently over 1,600 members of the Blue and Gold Club which is comprised of individuals on a waiting list for season tickets.

 

Full article here.

 

Wow a whole 300 people didn't renew. Musta moved out of town, and took his 299 friends with him. Ba dum dum.

 

Don't tell me you're one of the people who think everyone canceling their season tickets is a realistic idea of how to stick it to the big man.

[spndnchz]

Don't tell me you're one of the people who think everyone canceling their season tickets is a realistic idea of how to stick it to the big man.

 

Nope. I'm one of the kool-aid drinkers, Shaking Starfruit for me.

[Ted's Hot Dogs]

Does anybody know the percentage of fans come from south ontario to watch the game?

[Billfold100]

I wouldn't sneeze at losing 300 season ticket holders.

 

“Our season ticket holders have been a crucial part of the business success of the Buffalo Sabres in recent years,” said Chief Operating Officer Dan DiPofi.

 

TW, note the necessary adjective -- "business."

 

It's in Sabres fans best interest that the "business" is successful. They don't get the luxury of a $100M tv share check from the networks like those at 1 Bills Drive. I hope they make as much money as possible as long as ticket prices are reasonable (which they are) and they spend near the cap (which they have).

[Tom Backyard]

Does anybody know the percentage of fans come from south ontario to watch the game?

 

 

According to CBC, last June Quinn told the Globe and Mail that 20 to 25 per cent of the team's fan base is Canadian, with 10 to 15 per cent season-ticket holders.

 

Link

 

 

 

On a separate note, did anyone see the banner on the sabres.nhl website? I've attached it here. It can be found on the mini-pack page.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Interesting stats.....

 

The Sabres had 16,500 season tickets sold last year

 

Capacity is 18,690

 

The Sabres sold out 30 of 41 games

 

Average was 18,529

 

 

I find it VERY interesting that even with so FEW tickets available to the general public....that the public pretty much refused to pay for those tickets.

 

The same base of 16,500 people owned the tickets for every game, yet in a metropolitan area of over 1.2 million, which doesn't include Ontario and Rochester, the team was only able to sell an ADDITIONAL 2,029 seats per game, leaving over a quarter of games with seats still available.

 

Almost 2 million people in "the greatest hockey city in the world", were only able to pony up for 80,000 total seats over a 7 month period while leaving the product on the ice to be paid for in full by the same core of 16,500 people? That is quite telling in my opinion.

 

I understand some people share season tickets, and some minipacks are counted in the total.....but once the "die-hards" are paid up and accounted for.....there is NO ELASTICITY for this product. Back during the glorious President's Trophy Team days, peace be upon them, I could hock a pair of nosebleeds on a Wednesday night to see Minnesota, before the season even started for 300% of face.

 

What this tells me is that this team is pretty much the band Phish. Same people go to the same show, and tell you how great it is.....but once you cut out that group of dirty hippies that bows down, there's nothing there.

 

Very interesting indeed. It would be fun to audit the season ticket rolls to see just "Who" is buying up these seats.

[thesportsbuff]

Nope. I'm one of the kool-aid drinkers, Shaking Starfruit for me.

 

Just checking! :thumbsup: I saw someone b*tching on twitter ("98% renewal rate? that's really gonna show Darcy we're unhappy") or something right around the time you posted this, and your sarcastic "a whole 300 people didn't renew" statement somewhat implied that. I'm not a season ticket holder, nor do I know any personally, but statements like that are so ridiculous to begin with. Anybody who really expects 16,000+ people to surrender their season tickets just to "prove a point" is living in dream land. Sure, it might catch Regier/Golisano's attention if it actually happened, but every one of those people know that if they surrender their tickets somebody else is going to ###### them up just as quickly. And I think most real fans will continue to support the team regardless of how well they're doing. Just my take on it, sorry to go off topic.

[Taro T]

Interesting stats.....

 

The Sabres had 16,500 season tickets sold last year

 

Capacity is 18,690

 

The Sabres sold out 30 of 41 games

 

Average was 18,529

 

 

I find it VERY interesting that even with so FEW tickets available to the general public....that the public pretty much refused to pay for those tickets.

 

The same base of 16,500 people owned the tickets for every game, yet in a metropolitan area of over 1.2 million, which doesn't include Ontario and Rochester, the team was only able to sell an ADDITIONAL 2,029 seats per game, leaving over a quarter of games with seats still available.

 

Almost 2 million people in "the greatest hockey city in the world", were only able to pony up for 80,000 total seats over a 7 month period while leaving the product on the ice to be paid for in full by the same core of 16,500 people? That is quite telling in my opinion.

 

I understand some people share season tickets, and some minipacks are counted in the total.....but once the "die-hards" are paid up and accounted for.....there is NO ELASTICITY for this product. Back during the glorious President's Trophy Team days, peace be upon them, I could hock a pair of nosebleeds on a Wednesday night to see Minnesota, before the season even started for 300% of face.

 

What this tells me is that this team is pretty much the band Phish. Same people go to the same show, and tell you how great it is.....but once you cut out that group of dirty hippies that bows down, there's nothing there.

 

Very interesting indeed. It would be fun to audit the season ticket rolls to see just "Who" is buying up these seats.

Dwight, while your post is interesting as always, it appears that your analysis is flawed. While you are no longer a STH, there are still a large # of them in this Stubhub world that hold the tix to sell them (neglecting for the moment the ticket brokers that also have tix available). I don't doubt that they don't manage to rape their customers the way you used to, but the number of non-STH's at a game is significantly higher than the 2,190 you came up w/.

 

Also, a large # of the empty seats end up being at the Loaf games and other gold games. There were 11 Platinum and Gold games and 6 of those were not sellouts compared to 5 non-sellouts in the other 30 home games. Which would indicate that there is elasticity to the purchasing of this particular product. High prices --> low sales, which is by definition an elastic product.

 

And, as an aside, it is truly SHOCKING that people wouldn't pay $233 to see the friggin' Loafs. Clearly this isn't a real hockey town. ;)

[Stoner]

Interesting stats.....

 

The Sabres had 16,500 season tickets sold last year

 

Capacity is 18,690

 

The Sabres sold out 30 of 41 games

 

Average was 18,529

 

 

I find it VERY interesting that even with so FEW tickets available to the general public....that the public pretty much refused to pay for those tickets.

 

The same base of 16,500 people owned the tickets for every game, yet in a metropolitan area of over 1.2 million, which doesn't include Ontario and Rochester, the team was only able to sell an ADDITIONAL 2,029 seats per game, leaving over a quarter of games with seats still available.

 

Almost 2 million people in "the greatest hockey city in the world", were only able to pony up for 80,000 total seats over a 7 month period while leaving the product on the ice to be paid for in full by the same core of 16,500 people? That is quite telling in my opinion.

 

I understand some people share season tickets, and some minipacks are counted in the total.....but once the "die-hards" are paid up and accounted for.....there is NO ELASTICITY for this product. Back during the glorious President's Trophy Team days, peace be upon them, I could hock a pair of nosebleeds on a Wednesday night to see Minnesota, before the season even started for 300% of face.

 

What this tells me is that this team is pretty much the band Phish. Same people go to the same show, and tell you how great it is.....but once you cut out that group of dirty hippies that bows down, there's nothing there.

 

Very interesting indeed. It would be fun to audit the season ticket rolls to see just "Who" is buying up these seats.

 

Nice.

 

This goes hand in hand with the discussions about the arena atmosphere last season. Several media members, among them even the toady John Vogl and the voice of the organization Rick Jeanneret, mentioned how deadly dull the building was. I'm not sure how accurate your Phish analogy is -- the same people who go to every game do not seem to be telling the outside world how great they think the Sabres are.

 

As I wrote yesterday, I hope LQ is smart enough to realize how tenuous fan support is right now. Some dramatic change in the quality of the hockey and the quality of the entertainment needs to take place. Then again he might be happy to keep prices low and ensure that just enough people, most of whom don't give a rat's ###### about hockey, "fill" the joint.

 

You've written about risk before, having the sack to go after the brass ring. Is it in LQ? Or is he satisfied that 98% will look pretty good on his resume?

[spndnchz]

If they had 16,500 season ticket holders last year and they capped it at 14,825 this year, how can they say they got 98% renewal?

 

That's 90% in my book. The rest are mini-pack holders?

[Stoner]

Just checking! :thumbsup: I saw someone b*tching on twitter ("98% renewal rate? that's really gonna show Darcy we're unhappy") or something right around the time you posted this, and your sarcastic "a whole 300 people didn't renew" statement somewhat implied that. I'm not a season ticket holder, nor do I know any personally, but statements like that are so ridiculous to begin with. Anybody who really expects 16,000+ people to surrender their season tickets just to "prove a point" is living in dream land. Sure, it might catch Regier/Golisano's attention if it actually happened, but every one of those people know that if they surrender their tickets somebody else is going to ###### them up just as quickly. And I think most real fans will continue to support the team regardless of how well they're doing. Just my take on it, sorry to go off topic.

 

####=sn*tch? lol

[thesportsbuff]

####=sn*tch? lol

 

yeah WTF lol -- i JUST made a post about things like this in the thursday rant thread lol

[nobody]

If they had 16,500 season ticket holders last year and they capped it at 14,825 this year, how can they say they got 98% renewal?

 

That's 90% in my book. The rest are mini-pack holders?

 

 

That is probably correct. I think they do add mini-pack holders into the season ticket count.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Dwight, while your post is interesting as always, it appears that your analysis is flawed. While you are no longer a STH, there are still a large # of them in this Stubhub world that hold the tix to sell them (neglecting for the moment the ticket brokers that also have tix available). I don't doubt that they don't manage to rape their customers the way you used to, but the number of non-STH's at a game is significantly higher than the 2,190 you came up w/.

 

Also, a large # of the empty seats end up being at the Loaf games and other gold games. There were 11 Platinum and Gold games and 6 of those were not sellouts compared to 5 non-sellouts in the other 30 home games. Which would indicate that there is elasticity to the purchasing of this particular product. High prices --> low sales, which is by definition an elastic product.

 

And, as an aside, it is truly SHOCKING that people wouldn't pay $233 to see the friggin' Loafs. Clearly this isn't a real hockey town. ;)

 

Rape my customers? First of all, I was a season ticket holder while living 2,000 miles away....when 13,000 people would go to the games...and I'd give 75% of the tickets away to friends/family/charity. Excuse me for being rewarded for a few years by supplying what was obviously an inflated product to johnny-come-latelies and East Amherst soccer moms to watch the icecapades.

 

 

You defeat your point on Platinum and gold games. Like I said.....no elasticity. If it ain't cheap....nobody wants them. And those same games are usually 50%+ filled with Leafs and Canadiens fans. They are obviously picking up tickets cheaper than face value from different sources.

 

My point isn't that this isn't a hockey town....it's that the average person wants nothing to do with paying to see this team. The Sabres have NO PRICING POWER LEFT!!! They were buying advertising like crazy last year to sell those last 2,000 tickets. If there is so much demand, why would Quinn price season tickets at such a "deep discount" to window price? It's because THERE ISN'T A REAL WINDOW PRICE!!!! 90% of the revenues come from the same group of people. He needs to ballwash them to make them keep coming. If people stepped back and understood the reality of these numbers, I am sure not as many would be getting season tickets. It's the ILLUSION of an IN DEMAND product and a DEAL that keep people renewing. Sure, most of these people enjoy the games no matter what, but if they knew that they could get their hands on 6,000 tickets a game with no pressure, there is no way they would pony up for 41 games at a time.....not at these levels.

 

I'd love to see who really buys these tickets. How much of it is corporate money under obligation, how many are a few buddies splitting seasons, how many are Sugarpackets, LLC. that resell 1500 seats through another avenue but count it towards season ticket sales......

 

I never will say that Larry Quinn is a bad businessman...because he isn't. Just the opposite....he knows what he has up here and how to manipulate it. Too bad the fans can't see it for what it is and fight back with a little collusion of our own.

[ntjacks79]

Interesting stats.....

 

The Sabres had 16,500 season tickets sold last year

 

Capacity is 18,690

 

The Sabres sold out 30 of 41 games

 

Average was 18,529

 

 

I find it VERY interesting that even with so FEW tickets available to the general public....that the public pretty much refused to pay for those tickets.

 

The same base of 16,500 people owned the tickets for every game, yet in a metropolitan area of over 1.2 million, which doesn't include Ontario and Rochester, the team was only able to sell an ADDITIONAL 2,029 seats per game, leaving over a quarter of games with seats still available.

 

Almost 2 million people in "the greatest hockey city in the world", were only able to pony up for 80,000 total seats over a 7 month period while leaving the product on the ice to be paid for in full by the same core of 16,500 people? That is quite telling in my opinion.

 

I understand some people share season tickets, and some minipacks are counted in the total.....but once the "die-hards" are paid up and accounted for.....there is NO ELASTICITY for this product. Back during the glorious President's Trophy Team days, peace be upon them, I could hock a pair of nosebleeds on a Wednesday night to see Minnesota, before the season even started for 300% of face.

 

What this tells me is that this team is pretty much the band Phish. Same people go to the same show, and tell you how great it is.....but once you cut out that group of dirty hippies that bows down, there's nothing there.

 

Very interesting indeed. It would be fun to audit the season ticket rolls to see just "Who" is buying up these seats.

While I think your analysis is solid, I believe that the "Phish Factor" is not at all limited to the city of Buffalo in the NHL. Hockey attracts a "core and dedicated" crowd everywhere in the USA... where in Canada it's more like the NFL and MLB and NBA combined. Anyway, my point is that I don't think this phenomena is limited to Buffalo and I feel that the "dedicated core" fans of the Buffalo Sabres has risen in numbers since a decade ago (although a lot of losing could end that).

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Nice.

 

This goes hand in hand with the discussions about the arena atmosphere last season. Several media members, among them even the toady John Vogl and the voice of the organization Rick Jeanneret, mentioned how deadly dull the building was. I'm not sure how accurate your Phish analogy is -- the same people who go to every game do not seem to be telling the outside world how great they think the Sabres are.

 

As I wrote yesterday, I hope LQ is smart enough to realize how tenuous fan support is right now. Some dramatic change in the quality of the hockey and the quality of the entertainment needs to take place. Then again he might be happy to keep prices low and ensure that just enough people, most of whom don't give a rat's ###### about hockey, "fill" the joint.

 

You've written about risk before, having the sack to go after the brass ring. Is it in LQ? Or is he satisfied that 98% will look pretty good on his resume?

 

I think he knew what he was doing the whole time and wanted this team sold. There's just not the available money out there right now. They gambled by riding the wave of a few good years to max out profits, but the recession/depression nipped them in the butt.

 

I still think the entire league can fall apart at a moment's notice. When you see someone slip off a ledge at first and just hang on by their fingertips, it is terrifying. Then the longer they hang on, the more accustomed people are to the situation. Until they are pulled to safety, those fingers keep giving way centimeter by centimeter, and fatigue finally will overcome if a real solution isn't in place.

 

The NHL will be the first to go under if there is no long term real world solution.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

While I think your analysis is solid, I believe that the "Phish Factor" is not at all limited to the city of Buffalo in the NHL. Hockey attracts a "core and dedicated" crowd everywhere in the USA... where in Canada it's more like the NFL and MLB and NBA combined. Anyway, my point is that I don't think this phenomena is limited to Buffalo and I feel that the "dedicated core" fans of the Buffalo Sabres has risen in numbers since a decade ago (although a lot of losing could end that).

 

I agree....I think the newer fans to the team itself don't know the history and ups and downs. The season ticket totals still reflect a fanbase that believes there is pent up demand even though every other number shows that the average fan of the team is as fickle as ever. It is a naive fanbse that keeps them in business at these levels right now.

 

Again....I can't wrong anyone for wanting to go to games or in buying season tickets. If you have fun, then by all means spend away. I do think that there is a bit of gamesmanship going on though by both the team and the fans in their thinking. But then again, maybe they are a match made in heaven for each other.

[inkman]

You defeat your point on Platinum and gold games. Like I said.....no elasticity. If it ain't cheap....nobody wants them. And those same games are usually 50%+ filled with Leafs and Canadiens fans. They are obviously picking up tickets cheaper than face value from different sources.

I think this really speaks to the issue at hand. If 90% of the building is season ticket holders and nearly half the building is full of opposing teams fans on certain nights, how many of the season ticket holders are atually going to the games? I'm sure it varies on a given night but me thinks a large portion (hard to tell exactly how many) of season ticket holders are only attending a small portion of the games while selling via ticket broker sites (StubHub, craigslist, etc.). It really presents quite a different picture.

[SwampD]

I think this really speaks to the issue at hand. If 90% of the building is season ticket holders and nearly half the building is full of opposing teams fans on certain nights, how many of the season ticket holders are atually going to the games? I'm sure it varies on a given night but me thinks a large portion (hard to tell exactly how many) of season ticket holders are only attending a small portion of the games while selling via ticket broker sites (StubHub, craigslist, etc.). It really presents quite a different picture.

There is no way that there is ever 50% opposing fans at a Sabres game.

[inkman]

There is no way that there is ever 50% opposing fans at a Sabres game.

I don't attend enough games to give a definitive answer but it certainly sounds like the building is half full of Leaf/Canadians fans. (insert PA commment) Probably just the sit-on-your-hands type Sabres fans the building is full of these days.

[spndnchz]

I'd say about 20% for Toronto and Montreal. Random sampling by watching to see who has actual tix and who has paper printed code papers in heir hand going through the turnstiles. I'd put it at 1 out of 10 during the season. Scalpers and the like would be using actual tix though.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I think this really speaks to the issue at hand. If 90% of the building is season ticket holders and nearly half the building is full of opposing teams fans on certain nights, how many of the season ticket holders are atually going to the games? I'm sure it varies on a given night but me thinks a large portion (hard to tell exactly how many) of season ticket holders are only attending a small portion of the games while selling via ticket broker sites (StubHub, craigslist, etc.). It really presents quite a different picture.

 

For games against those 2 teams....yes.

 

For games on Thanksgiving and Christmas weeks....yes.

 

For 75% of the games....no.

 

 

Just ask anyone that owns club seats how often they are able to get anywhere near window price for their seats on stubhub or ebay. There is still a market for cheaper seats. Anything of "quality", be prepared to go to most games or risk losing money.

 

 

 

There isn't money to be made by the middle man like there was a few years ago. That's my point. The fanbase has been duped into taking on the risk of the organization by holding the tickets themselves. If they only want to go to 5-10 games....and they sell the rest of the tickets at their cost...wouldn't it be more of a buyer's market if the fans just held back, made the team take on risk by having to showcase a quality product, then just purchasing tickets to the games they want to go to? They'd accomplish the same thing at the same price or better without taking on the risk of selling 75% of the season as well as all associated opportunity costs.

 

It's like buying 10 lbs of porkchops at Sam's Club @1.99 for one person instead of 1 lb @2.49 It looks smart at first, until you are throwing out 3 lbs of freezerburned pork 6 months later.

[Ted's Hot Dogs]

I don't attend enough games to give a definitive answer but it certainly sounds like the building is half full of Leaf/Canadians fans. (insert PA commment) Probably just the sit-on-your-hands type Sabres fans the building is full of these days.

 

Those are the two cities that really show us up when we play them. I would say it's half as well. Does any other cities fans ever show up the bills like they do the sabres at home?