carpandean Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 I too would've liked to have seen what TC would've done in the playoffs last year if he'd been healthy. But that's kinda the point -- relying on TC to stay healthy is just foolish, and DR should not have put this team in that position AGAIN. Exactly. It's great to say that Tim was healthy for most of last year, but when it comes down to it, he was injured once again and at the worst possible time. Also, counting 2005-06 for Koivu isn't really fair as he was a 22 year old rookie, while Tim had already been in the league for four seasons prior to that. His PPG has gone up every year since: 2005-06 - 0.32 PPG 2006-07 - 0.66 PPG 2007-08 - 0.74 PPG 2008-09 - 0.85 PPG 2009-10 - 0.89 PPG In addition, he has all those other factors - both tangible and intangible - that Timmy lacks. Had Timmy played 88% of games since the lockout like Koivu (90% since his rookie year), rather than 57%, we might hold Timmy in higher regard, but he'd still be missing some of those other factors. I respect your opinion (well, your right to have one ;) ) and at their respective salaries, I can somewhat understand your feelings. However, at equal money, as you added at the end, no way am I taking Connolly over Koivu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korab rules Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 Yes, but there's reason to my madness. Since the lockout Connolly has played 234 games -- disappointing injury wise, I know, but he's recorded 208 points in those games. Koivo, meanwhile, has recorded 255 points in 362 games. For the less fortunate, that means that Timmy would have to play around 100 games without recording a point to lower his PPG to Koivu's level. Points-per-game wise, I would bet that Connolly is top on the team since the lockout, maybe second to Derek Roy (haven't checked the stats for him). You guys will sit here and tear me apart for it, but I don't care -- It's quite obvious that Connolly is one of the more talented players on the team when healthy. Anyone who says otherwise either doesn't watch the games, or is simply saying that because some of the long time, more respected posters here have established that as the norm, and nobody wants to sound "crazy" (like they're on drugs ;) ) by giving the dude his fair share of credit. He's come back from multiple concussions and continues to produce more consistently than anybody on the team. He had a terrible playoff (along with everybody else in a Sabres uniform), but I think it's been established that he was playing injured-- It sucks, things happen. He's not a hard nosed, gritty type of player, that's just not his game (and can you blame him after what he's been through?) -- it's not like Mikko Koivu throws his body around either. Now that Timmy has made it through most of a season, I think he can only take a step forward. Am I saying Connolly should earn $6+ mil a year? No ###### way. But would I rather have Connolly @ 4.5 on my team than Koivu @ 6.5 (or 4.5 for that matter). Koivu probably has the upper hand in the faceoff circle, I can't argue that. But when Connolly plays, he is often the best Sabre on the ice. This was especially true two seasons ago when he played 48 games and still almost eclipsed the 20 goal mark. Everybody had a down year last season. We'll see what happens this year, but if Timmy remains a Sabre there is no doubt he will be towards the top of the team in points, AGAIN. 05-06 was Koivu's first year in the league. Want to go back and look at timmy's stats? Here they are: 1999-00 New York Islanders NHL 81 14 20 34 44 -- -- -- -- -- 2000-01 New York Islanders NHL 82 10 31 41 42 -- -- -- -- -- 2001-02 Buffalo Sabres NHL 82 10 35 45 34 -- -- -- -- -- 2002-03 Buffalo Sabres NHL 80 12 13 25 32 -- -- -- -- -- 2004-05 Langnau Swiss 16 8 3 11 14 -- -- -- -- -- 2005-06 Buffalo Sabres NHL 63 16 39 55 28 8 5 6 11 0 2006-07 Buffalo Sabres NHL 2 1 0 1 2 16 0 9 9 4 2007-08 Buffalo Sabres NHL 48 7 33 40 8 -- -- -- -- -- 2008-09 Buffalo Sabres NHL 48 18 29 47 22 -- -- -- -- -- 2009-10 Buffalo Sabres NHL 73 17 48 65 28 6 0 1 1 2 This shows that Timmy has NEVER scored 20 goals, and his highest point production EVER was last season, which was still lower than Koivu's point production over the last two seasons. I posted Koivu's stats before, but here they are in the same post for comparison: 2005-06 Minnesota Wild NHL 64 6 15 21 40 -- -- -- -- -- 2006-07 Minnesota Wild NHL 82 20 34 54 58 5 1 0 1 4 2007-08 Minnesota Wild NHL 57 11 31 42 42 6 4 1 5 4 2008-09 Minnesota Wild NHL 79 20 47 67 66 -- -- -- -- -- 2009-10 Minnesota Wild NHL 80 22 49 71 50 -- -- -- -- -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NHL Totals 362 79 176 255 256 11 5 1 6 8 Who cares what a player does on a PPG basis if they are missing large chunks of, or even entire, seasons. They need to be in the lineup consistently to help their team win games consistently. You make an argument, Iwill give you credit for that, but I don't believe the argument holds water. I'm not a Connolly hater, I'm just tired of him floating on the perimeter and playing his soft, no contact game. He is everything I hate in a hockey player, and his disappearing act in the playoffs was the final nail in the coffin. Get TC off my team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesportsbuff Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 No one is saying that TC isn't talented or productive when healthy. However, in each of Koivu's last 2 years, he put up more points than TC ever has in a season in his career -- and TC has been in the NHL for 8 seasons (plus the one he only played 2 games in). Koivu is also a really good faceoff man and a team captain. I would trade TC for him in a heartbeat. I too would've liked to have seen what TC would've done in the playoffs last year if he'd been healthy. But that's kinda the point -- relying on TC to stay healthy is just foolish, and DR should not have put this team in that position AGAIN. I know it seems unfair but I rarely rely on pre-lockout stats (maybe I should because those were years that TC was actually played full seasons :wallbash: ) I just think for one, the game has changed, and I also didn't follow the NHL nearly as closely as I do now in those years. Anyway on to my post, I don't think it's foolish to rely on him staying healthy. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't believe in guys being "injury prone." The term is ridiculous. Just because a guy breaks his arm one year doesn't mean he's more likely to break his leg the next season. It just doesn't work that way. Maybe I'm more of a numbers guy, but the odds of him suffering another long term injury just aren't very high. The only exception is if he is rocked and gets another concussion, at which point I would hope he calls it a career. I'm no med school student but don't concussions supposedly get worse every time they occur? But the last few seasons that he missed significant time weren't due to concussions, but bone fractures and such. The chances of those type of injuries happening again just isn't that high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
static70 Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 Will Kovalchuk sign this week? I hope so, then we can move on to other things. What is Chicago going to do about their cap situation? Is Gagne a possibility for the Sabres? And if so, what would Regier have to give up? Its friday, I'd like to think Darcy is on his phone this morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korab rules Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 No one is saying that TC isn't talented or productive when healthy. However, in each of Koivu's last 2 years, he put up more points than TC ever has in a season in his career -- and TC has been in the NHL for 8 seasons (plus the one he only played 2 games in). Koivu is also a really good faceoff man and a team captain. I would trade TC for him in a heartbeat. I too would've liked to have seen what TC would've done in the playoffs last year if he'd been healthy. But that's kinda the point -- relying on TC to stay healthy is just foolish, and DR should not have put this team in that position AGAIN. Exactly. It's great to say that Tim was healthy for most of last year, but when it comes down to it, he was injured once again and at the worst possible time. Also, counting 2005-06 for Koivu isn't really fair as he was a 22 year old rookie, while Tim had already been in the league for four seasons prior to that. His PPG has gone up every year since: 2005-06 - 0.32 PPG 2006-07 - 0.66 PPG 2007-08 - 0.74 PPG 2008-09 - 0.85 PPG 2009-10 - 0.89 PPG In addition, he has all those other factors - both tangible and intangible - that Timmy lacks. Had Timmy played 88% of games since the lockout like Koivu (90% since his rookie year), rather than 57%, we might hold Timmy in higher regard, but he'd still be missing some of those other factors. I respect your opinion (well, your right to have one ;) ) and at their respective salaries, I can somewhat understand your feelings. However, at equal money, as you added at the end, no way am I taking Connolly over Koivu. 05-06 was Koivu's first year in the league. Want to go back and look at timmy's stats? Here they are: 1999-00 New York Islanders NHL 81 14 20 34 44 -- -- -- -- -- 2000-01 New York Islanders NHL 82 10 31 41 42 -- -- -- -- -- 2001-02 Buffalo Sabres NHL 82 10 35 45 34 -- -- -- -- -- 2002-03 Buffalo Sabres NHL 80 12 13 25 32 -- -- -- -- -- 2004-05 Langnau Swiss 16 8 3 11 14 -- -- -- -- -- 2005-06 Buffalo Sabres NHL 63 16 39 55 28 8 5 6 11 0 2006-07 Buffalo Sabres NHL 2 1 0 1 2 16 0 9 9 4 2007-08 Buffalo Sabres NHL 48 7 33 40 8 -- -- -- -- -- 2008-09 Buffalo Sabres NHL 48 18 29 47 22 -- -- -- -- -- 2009-10 Buffalo Sabres NHL 73 17 48 65 28 6 0 1 1 2 This shows that Timmy has NEVER scored 20 goals, and his highest point production EVER was last season, which was still lower than Koivu's point production over the last two seasons. I posted Koivu's stats before, but here they are in the same post for comparison: 2005-06 Minnesota Wild NHL 64 6 15 21 40 -- -- -- -- -- 2006-07 Minnesota Wild NHL 82 20 34 54 58 5 1 0 1 4 2007-08 Minnesota Wild NHL 57 11 31 42 42 6 4 1 5 4 2008-09 Minnesota Wild NHL 79 20 47 67 66 -- -- -- -- -- 2009-10 Minnesota Wild NHL 80 22 49 71 50 -- -- -- -- -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NHL Totals 362 79 176 255 256 11 5 1 6 8 Who cares what a player does on a PPG basis if they are missing large chunks of, or even entire, seasons. They need to be in the lineup consistently to help their team win games consistently. You make an argument, Iwill give you credit for that, but I don't believe the argument holds water. I'm not a Connolly hater, I'm just tired of him floating on the perimeter and playing his soft, no contact game. He is everything I hate in a hockey player, and his disappearing act in the playoffs was the final nail in the coffin. Get TC off my team. Well I guess that settles things! Only thing to add is that Mikko was tied with Gaustad at #27 in the league on Faceoff percentage at 52.7%. Timmy was so bad at faceoffs that Lindy wouldn't let him take them anymore. His win percentage was 42.1%, but he apparently didn't take enough faceoffs to even be ranked by the NHL. If he had, he would have been third from the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesportsbuff Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 Exactly. It's great to say that Tim was healthy for most of last year, but when it comes down to it, he was injured once again and at the worst possible time. Also, counting 2005-06 for Koivu isn't really fair as he was a 22 year old rookie, while Tim had already been in the league for four seasons prior to that. His PPG has gone up every year since: 2005-06 - 0.32 PPG 2006-07 - 0.66 PPG 2007-08 - 0.74 PPG 2008-09 - 0.85 PPG 2009-10 - 0.89 PPG Vanek was also injured at the worst possible time. Not a diss on Vanek but if you're going to imply that it is somehow Connolly's fault that he was injured, then at least point out that our $7mil "superstar" player was hurt too-- at literally the worst possible time, because he was on a hot streak going in. This shows that Timmy has NEVER scored 20 goals, and his highest point production EVER was last season, which was still lower than Koivu's point production over the last two seasons. He's never scored 20, but he certainly would have in 08-09 if he had played more than 48 games. (Also 16 in 63 games in 05/06, and 17 in 73 games last year -- he could easily have scored 20 in each of those seasons as well, minus his injuries). Then performed about on par with the rest of the roster last year. I think it's too early to write him off -- once he starts playing full seasons we will see what his true potential really is. It's impossible for me to "win" this argument because everything is dependent on whether he can stay healthy, which I believe he can (and will). But when he IS healthy, he can be incredible. He also led the team in power play points -- where he can be most dangerous, with some extra space and time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 No one has mentioned how many goals Gray Cloud has cost the Sabres by floating back on defense. I can think of two in this playoffs alone, both in the same game. I'll take Koivu, hands down. I think it's funny that we're always surprised when a GM locks up a first line center for a lot of money. I wish Darcy viewed them as important to the team as others do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 No one has mentioned how many goals Gray Cloud has cost the Sabres by floating back on defense. I can think of two in this playoffs alone, both in the same game. I'll take Koivu, hands down. I think it's funny that we're always surprised when a GM locks up a first line center for a lot of money. I wish Darcy viewed them as important to the team as others do. I'll bet Connolly could drink Koivu under the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpandean Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 Vanek was also injured at the worst possible time. Not a diss on Vanek but if you're going to imply that it is somehow Connolly's fault that he was injured, then at least point out that our $7mil "superstar" player was hurt too-- at literally the worst possible time, because he was on a hot streak going in. Vanek, who hadn't missed a game due to injury since coming up except for 9 games last year when a puck fractured his jaw, was hacked (two-handed) not once, but twice on breakaways and still managed two more goals in three less playoff games? That Vanek?! I don't like to believe that someone can be "injury prone" either, but to miss so many games due to so many different types of injuries is a pattern that is hard to ignore. Maybe, Timmy's no more injury prone than others, but just doesn't handle smaller injuries as well. Maybe, he has brittle bones. I don't know, but over and over since the lockout, he has found new ways to miss time due to injury. Personally, I'd prefer to find a GM that feels the way you do about him and make a trade than spend another year wondering when he will go out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 I'll bet Connolly could drink Koivu under the table. outstanding. I don't like to believe that someone can be "injury prone" either, but to miss so many games due to so many different types of injuries is a pattern that is hard to ignore. Maybe, Timmy's no more injury prone than others, but just doesn't handle smaller injuries as well. Maybe, he has brittle bones. I don't know, but over and over since the lockout, he has found new ways to miss time due to injury. Personally, I'd prefer to find a GM that feels the way you do about him and make a trade than spend another year wondering when he will go out. The "injury prone" concept is an interesting question. IMHO, injuries are often totally random, but I also believe that (i) you have to have a freakishly strong body to play professional sports, as the physical grind is extreme and (ii) there are some guys who just have normal bodies, and the grind results in a higher-than-normal incidence of injuries (Rob Johnson comes to mind). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesportsbuff Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 Vanek, who hadn't missed a game due to injury since coming up except for 9 games last year when a puck fractured his jaw, was hacked (two-handed) not once, but twice on breakaways and still managed two more goals in three less playoff games? That Vanek?! I don't like to believe that someone can be "injury prone" either, but to miss so many games due to so many different types of injuries is a pattern that is hard to ignore. Maybe, Timmy's no more injury prone than others, but just doesn't handle smaller injuries as well. Maybe, he has brittle bones. I don't know, but over and over since the lockout, he has found new ways to miss time due to injury. Personally, I'd prefer to find a GM that feels the way you do about him and make a trade than spend another year wondering when he will go out. If you have a fracture in your leg, bone spurs in your hip, a broken rib, cracked vertebrae in your back, you're certainly not going to HELP the team by going out and limping around the ice trying to play through it. A fractured jaw in the big picture is a much worse injury, but you can put a mask on and you're good to play without it affecting your game much. Maybe Tim Connolly's poor performance in the playoffs is the result of fans criticizing him to the point that he felt pressure to try to play through it, and in turn, could not play 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpandean Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 Maybe Tim Connolly's poor performance in the playoffs is the result of fans criticizing him to the point that he felt pressure to try to play through it, and in turn, could not play 100%. Does it matter? Is not being able to play at all due to yet another injury really any better than playing and not performing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesportsbuff Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 Does it matter? Is not being able to play at all due to yet another injury really any better than playing and not performing? You're joking, right? Why would anybody want a player playing at 50, 60, 70% over a player that is totally healthy. The only exception is top-talent players, or if it's the only option you haven't exhausted (ie Vanek coming back early). If Connolly or Lindy had opted to sit out, we could have seen a motivated, 100% healthy Gerbe the whole series, and Ennis may have gotten more ice time. It "doesn't matter" because we'll never know what would have / could have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpandean Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 You're joking, right? Why would anybody want a player playing at 50, 60, 70% over a player that is totally healthy. The only exception is top-talent players, or if it's the only option you haven't exhausted (ie Vanek coming back early). If Connolly or Lindy had opted to sit out, we could have seen a motivated, 100% healthy Gerbe the whole series, and Ennis may have gotten more ice time. It "doesn't matter" because we'll never know what would have / could have happened. Not "does it really matter to how the team would have performed?" Rather, "does it really matter to how we think of Connolly?" Is it any better that a guy with his injury history played poorly because of yet another injury rather than just because he can't step it up in the playoffs? Obviously, since you believe that his injury history says nothing about his injury future, you will probably say that it does matter. However, for those that look at his history as improbable for just bad luck and believe that, for whatever reason, he tends to be injured more often than the average player and will continue to be so, it doesn't matter which it was. Can't play when it counts or can't stay healthy; neither is something I want on the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpgr909 Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 Its friday, I'd like to think Darcy is on his phone this morning. Do they get good reception on Mediterranean cruise ships? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korab rules Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 He's never scored 20, but he certainly would have in 08-09 if he had played more than 48 games. (Also 16 in 63 games in 05/06, and 17 in 73 games last year -- he could easily have scored 20 in each of those seasons as well, minus his injuries). Then performed about on par with the rest of the roster last year. I think it's too early to write him off -- once he starts playing full seasons we will see what his true potential really is. Would have, could have, should have. Fact is he didn't, and never has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korab rules Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 Maybe Tim Connolly's poor performance in the playoffs is the result of fans criticizing him to the point that he felt pressure to try to play through it, and in turn, could not play 100%. So your are saying his psyche is a fragile as the rest of him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swedesessed Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 Whispers that Ilya Kovalchuk will sign with Los Angeles 15 years 80 million Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FogBat Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 I have GOT to meet his dealer! As much as I hate this contract for what it does to the league (this is the new benchmark in all labor negotiations), I would take Koivu over Connolly any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I found Jack's dealer over here. EDIT: Hint - you have to sign in first before it takes you to the final link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FogBat Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 So your are saying his psyche is a fragile as the rest of him? If that's the case, then that's a good reason why the "C" isn't on his uniform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpgr909 Posted July 17, 2010 Report Share Posted July 17, 2010 Whispers that Ilya Kovalchuk will sign with Los Angeles 15 years 80 million Any reliable sources on that? If true, I'd say the LA Kings change their minds quicker and more often than my high school girlfriend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjag Posted July 17, 2010 Report Share Posted July 17, 2010 If Koivu gets that kind of coin, the NHL is truly doomed. Without a realistic TV contract, how the heck do they think they can continue to pay that freight. Arenas are only so big and prices can only climb so much before you have priced yourself right into bankruptcy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FogBat Posted July 17, 2010 Report Share Posted July 17, 2010 If Koivu gets that kind of coin, the NHL is truly doomed. Without a realistic TV contract, how the heck do they think they can continue to pay that freight. Arenas are only so big and prices can only climb so much before you have priced yourself right into bankruptcy. It's going to get a lot worse than you think. We're heading into a double-dip recession, and the next wave of massive foreclosures will be in commercial real estate. What does that have to do with hockey? Well, if everything is overvalued, so are the franchises and the portfolios of the owners. If it gets this bad, then the only thing left to cheer the players on will be the chirping of crickets and rats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderbread Posted July 17, 2010 Report Share Posted July 17, 2010 Do they get good reception on Mediterranean cruise ships? Outstanding! :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
static70 Posted July 17, 2010 Report Share Posted July 17, 2010 Do they get good reception on Mediterranean cruise ships? Barring an EMP event, the satphone works just fine. :rolleyes: Its the user thats the issue, he has to pick it up and dial a number. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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