Marc-Andre Gragnani

[tom webster]

The Sabres do very well in stats that Miller directly effects. You have yet to help your case one bit.

 

Except on a few occasions Miller faced far too many shots and far too many quality scoring chances each night. Other stats that reflect poorly on the teams defense are the Sabres being dead last in hits and 23rd in takeaways.

 

To recap, in the statistical categories that you can measure a defense on that are not directly effected by goaltending the Sabres consistently rank in the bottom third of the league. In statistical categories that are directly related to goaltending they rank at he top of the league.

 

 

Do you any link to these stats you keep spouting? And you do realize that the game is played with 5 skaters right? How do you decide which stats are relative to the defenseman alone? And do you factor in the system that is played? Is blocking shots more important then clearing lanes so the goalie can see the shot? Have you done any analysis that shows that the stats you deem important have an effect on playoff performance?

 

In summary, you like to quote stats that fit into your perception and argument, but then use anecdotal evidence to tell us why the team succeeded. And that is the main point. It is team results and wins and losses that matter.

[deluca67]

Do you any link to these stats you keep spouting? And you do realize that the game is played with 5 skaters right? How do you decide which stats are relative to the defenseman alone? And do you factor in the system that is played? Is blocking shots more important then clearing lanes so the goalie can see the shot? Have you done any analysis that shows that the stats you deem important have an effect on playoff performance?

 

In summary, you like to quote stats that fit into your perception and argument, but then use anecdotal evidence to tell us why the team succeeded. And that is the main point. It is team results and wins and losses that matter.

All the rankings are per NHL.com.

 

If the Sabres defensive system is to play soft and ineffectively then the conversation needs to turn to a coaching change. To answer another question a blocked shot is more important than giving a NHL player a clear shot at your goalie. I have done a analysis. A 88 game analysis that resulted in the findings that this defense needs a complete overhaul unless Sekera and Butler can find their games.

 

The only thing "that matters" is the Stanley Cup. It's frustrating that the Sabres are still as far away from that goal as they ever have been. More frustrating that Regier and Quinn will excuse their way through this off-season just as you are doing. Until this front office realizes that they need a defense that can play with the larger more physical forwards in the Eastern Conference the Sabres will never be a true contender. Boston and Philly aren't going to get smaller next season. Burke is going to have another off-season to bring in his style of players to the Leafs. Other teams are going to look at the success Philly has had and look to get more physical.

 

There are going to be players available and opportunities to overhaul this roster not only on the back end but also upfront. They can do as they have in the past and refuse to even consider all the avenues possible and we can have this same conversation next June. Or, they can actually make significant moves (not just 1 or 2) and do what is necessary and maybe we are still talking about the Sabres playing in June instead of what might have been.

[tom webster]

All the rankings are per NHL.com.

 

If the Sabres defensive system is to play soft and ineffectively then the conversation needs to turn to a coaching change. To answer another question a blocked shot is more important than giving a NHL player a clear shot at your goalie. I have done a analysis. A 88 game analysis that resulted in the findings that this defense needs a complete overhaul unless Sekera and Butler can find their games.

 

The only thing "that matters" is the Stanley Cup. It's frustrating that the Sabres are still as far away from that goal as they ever have been. More frustrating that Regier and Quinn will excuse their way through this off-season just as you are doing. Until this front office realizes that they need a defense that can play with the larger more physical forwards in the Eastern Conference the Sabres will never be a true contender. Boston and Philly aren't going to get smaller next season. Burke is going to have another off-season to bring in his style of players to the Leafs. Other teams are going to look at the success Philly has had and look to get more physical.

 

There are going to be players available and opportunities to overhaul this roster not only on the back end but also upfront. They can do as they have in the past and refuse to even consider all the avenues possible and we can have this same conversation next June. Or, they can actually make significant moves (not just 1 or 2) and do what is necessary and maybe we are still talking about the Sabres playing in June instead of what might have been.

 

 

I am truly asking where, and not trying to be a jerk, at least not this time. I have seen no "team" blocked shots stats.

 

As for the second bolded part, pure hyperbole. There is no evidence that this team isn't physical enough to win no matter how much you keep hammering that point. We agree that they need to improve the top 6. Where we differ is how much. Roy- Ennis and Pominville would be a very good to great second line if Vanek, Marleau and Hemsky were the first line and the remaining players were 3rd and 4th line.

As for the defense, all it needs is to resign Lydman and add a power play point man.

[deluca67]

I am truly asking where, and not trying to be a jerk, at least not this time. I have seen no "team" blocked shots stats.

 

As for the second bolded part, pure hyperbole. There is no evidence that this team isn't physical enough to win no matter how much you keep hammering that point. We agree that they need to improve the top 6. Where we differ is how much. Roy- Ennis and Pominville would be a very good to great second line if Vanek, Marleau and Hemsky were the first line and the remaining players were 3rd and 4th line.

As for the defense, all it needs is to resign Lydman and add a power play point man.

Look under team stats - real time. Has blocked shots - missed shots, takeaways and giveaways. The Sabres have one the worst takeaway/giveaway ratios. 23rd in takeaways and third in giveaways.

[tom webster]

Look under team stats - real time. Has blocked shots - missed shots, takeaways and giveaways. The Sabres have one the worst takeaway/giveaway ratios. 23rd in takeaways and third in giveaways.

 

 

Just for a little perspective

 

Total Hits leader - Dallas

Blocked shots leader - Florida

Takeaways leader - Islanders

Least give aways - Columbus

 

Most telling stat regarding blocked shots. 4 leaders in the Jennings Race

 

New Jersey 28th in blocks

Boston 26th in blocks

Phoenix 27th in blocks

Buffalo 23rd in blocks

 

Last in blocks? Anaheim and Detroit

 

 

That great Black Hawks team, 17th in blocked shots, 25th in hits, 7th in give aways, 4th in takeawys

The Flyers, 4th in blocked shots, 14th in hits, 15th in giveawys, 17th in takeaways

 

Again, the point is you can make stats say what you want them to say. Wins and losses are what matters. The Sabres had a great regular season followed by a dissappointing playoff.

 

Do they need to improve? Yes!

Do they need to be torn apart? No!

[cdexchange]

Just for a little perspective

 

Total Hits leader - Dallas

Blocked shots leader - Florida

Takeaways leader - Islanders

Least give aways - Columbus

 

Most telling stat regarding blocked shots. 4 leaders in the Jennings Race

 

New Jersey 28th in blocks

Boston 26th in blocks

Phoenix 27th in blocks

Buffalo 23rd in blocks

 

Last in blocks? Anaheim and Detroit

 

 

That great Black Hawks team, 17th in blocked shots, 25th in hits, 7th in give aways, 4th in takeawys

The Flyers, 4th in blocked shots, 14th in hits, 15th in giveawys, 17th in takeaways

 

Again, the point is you can make stats say what you want them to say. Wins and losses are what matters. The Sabres had a great regular season followed by a dissappointing playoff.

 

Do they need to improve? Yes!

Do they need to be torn apart? No!

 

 

Nicely done. :thumbsup:

[deluca67]

Just for a little perspective

 

Total Hits leader - Dallas

Blocked shots leader - Florida

Takeaways leader - Islanders

Least give aways - Columbus

 

Most telling stat regarding blocked shots. 4 leaders in the Jennings Race

 

New Jersey 28th in blocks

Boston 26th in blocks

Phoenix 27th in blocks

Buffalo 23rd in blocks

 

Last in blocks? Anaheim and Detroit

 

 

That great Black Hawks team, 17th in blocked shots, 25th in hits, 7th in give aways, 4th in takeawys

The Flyers, 4th in blocked shots, 14th in hits, 15th in giveawys, 17th in takeaways

 

Again, the point is you can make stats say what you want them to say. Wins and losses are what matters. The Sabres had a great regular season followed by a dissappointing playoff.

 

Do they need to improve? Yes!

Do they need to be torn apart? No!

You fail to mention that the Hawks are also #1 in shots allowed.

 

I like the Jennings race blocked shot comparison again you fail to mention that all four of those teams are considered to have outstanding goaltending. Is there any doubt that the other three teams accomplished what they did this season simply because of their goaltending?

 

You are right to say that one individual stat can be made to say what you want. What you can not deny is that there is a irrefutable pattern amongst the various statistics that prove the Sabres are merely a one man band as they say. Ryan Miller is Buddy Holly and the rest of the roster are The Crickets.

[tom webster]

You fail to mention that the Hawks are also #1 in shots allowed.

 

I like the Jennings race blocked shot comparison again you fail to mention that all four of those teams are considered to have outstanding goaltending. Is there any doubt that the other three teams accomplished what they did this season simply because of their goaltending?

 

You are right to say that one individual stat can be made to say what you want. What you can not deny is that there is a irrefutable pattern amongst the various statistics that prove the Sabres are merely a one man band as they say. Ryan Miller is Buddy Holly and the rest of the roster are The Crickets.

 

 

This repsonse isn't really worthy of a reply, but that wouldn't be me.

 

You really have no proof, its just your opinion because you don't like the style of play, no matter how you try and twist it. What you fail to mention is that a team that is geared toward a more puck possession game is going to have more give aways just as a matter of math, just like a team that has no puck possession is likely to lead in hits and takeaways because they are always chasing the puck.

 

The only irrefutable proof is the final record. Everything else is your interpretation of statistics with no clear indicator as to which stat out ranks wins and losses.

[nfreeman]

Just for a little perspective

 

Total Hits leader - Dallas

Blocked shots leader - Florida

Takeaways leader - Islanders

Least give aways - Columbus

 

Most telling stat regarding blocked shots. 4 leaders in the Jennings Race

 

New Jersey 28th in blocks

Boston 26th in blocks

Phoenix 27th in blocks

Buffalo 23rd in blocks

 

Last in blocks? Anaheim and Detroit

 

 

That great Black Hawks team, 17th in blocked shots, 25th in hits, 7th in give aways, 4th in takeawys

The Flyers, 4th in blocked shots, 14th in hits, 15th in giveawys, 17th in takeaways

 

Again, the point is you can make stats say what you want them to say. Wins and losses are what matters. The Sabres had a great regular season followed by a dissappointing playoff.

 

Do they need to improve? Yes!

Do they need to be torn apart? No!

And that is the end of the discussion on those particular stats.

 

 

 

[deluca67]

And that is the end of the discussion on those particular stats.

Really, you two should get a room.

[deluca67]

This repsonse isn't really worthy of a reply, but that wouldn't be me.

 

You really have no proof, its just your opinion because you don't like the style of play, no matter how you try and twist it. What you fail to mention is that a team that is geared toward a more puck possession game is going to have more give aways just as a matter of math, just like a team that has no puck possession is likely to lead in hits and takeaways because they are always chasing the puck.

 

The only irrefutable proof is the final record. Everything else is your interpretation of statistics with no clear indicator as to which stat out ranks wins and losses.

The final record 2-4 states they are not good enough. If you and Regier want to ignore trends then by all means go ahead. If you paid attention to those trends then the 2-4 record in the playoffs is no surprise. Hopefully the front office has had a awakening this off-season and is moving away from your type of thinking. If they ignore the statistical trends then this team is heading towards yet another season where they are not a contender for the Stanley Cup and can keep hanging on to the idea that Miller will bring them regular season success as he did this season.

[SabresneedaCup]

i think both deluca and tom w make good points. but i would have to side with tom w on this one. i definately think a few key trades and or free agent signings is the right answer. the sabres do you have some very taleted guys even though they annoy us very much sometimes.

[deluca67]

i think both deluca and tom w make good points. but i would have to side with tom w on this one. i definately think a few key trades and or free agent signings is the right answer. the sabres do you have some very taleted guys even though they annoy us very much sometimes.

You are saying this while watching the Finals?

[tom webster]

You are saying this while watching the Finals?

 

 

Yep.

[LabattBlue]

Why not just commit 100% to a youth movement on the blueline. Go with Myers, Sekera, Butler, Weber, Gragnani and Persson.

:blink: :blink:

 

Say hello to a top 5 pick in 2011.

[deluca67]

:blink: :blink:

 

Say hello to a top 5 pick in 2011.

Adding Rivet and Montador would make that squad any better? Trust me when I say that isn't my ideal defense. I;m just saying if the Sabres are not committed to bringing in a big time addition to the blue-line they might as well go with the kids.

[LabattBlue]

As much as I think Rivet has very little left in the tank, having him and Montador in the lineup instead of Persson & Gragnani would be a world of difference.

[deluca67]

As much as I think Rivet has very little left in the tank, having him and Montador in the lineup instead of Persson & Gragnani would be a world of difference.

And the song It's A Small World After All plays on.

[SabresneedaCup]

Adding Rivet and Montador would make that squad any better? Trust me when I say that isn't my ideal defense. I;m just saying if the Sabres are not committed to bringing in a big time addition to the blue-line they might as well go with the kids.

whats wrong with montador? i thinks hes decent.

[deluca67]

whats wrong with montador? i thinks hes decent.

Besides the multiple times he fell down with no one around him coughing up the puck? He's a dime a dozen with nowhere near the physical game people thought he had.

[SabresneedaCup]

Besides the multiple times he fell down with no one around him coughing up the puck? He's a dime a dozen with nowhere near the physical game people thought he had.

he had a few timely goals and i dont recall him falling that much. plus id say hes probly our most physical defenseman.

[korab rules]

:blink: :blink:

 

Say hello to a top 5 pick in 2011.

Why not? Worked for Pittsburg. Suck bad enough an we can finally get that top tier talent eveyone talks about. Is it any coincidence our best player (outside the goalie) is our only top 5 pick.? An up and down cycle every 5-7 years is better than continual medocrity. The bills and sabres are exhibit 1 and 1A.

[korab rules]

Besides the multiple times he fell down with no one around him coughing up the puck? He's a dime a dozen with nowhere near the physical game people thought he had.

Word. Monty never lived up to the hype as a big bad defenseman ready to lay the wood and drop the gloves. He was a better stick handler than I ever expected, but damn he had a tendency to fall down at bad moments in the game.

[deluca67]

he had a few timely goals and i dont recall him falling that much. plus id say hes probly our most physical defenseman.

You may right and that's why I would like to see the defense overhauled.

[TheChimp]

We have four defensemen who, on many other squads, would be fighting for a roster spot (Rivet, Montador, Butler, and Sekera), two guys who probably could hold their own at #3 and #4 but SUCK against the top lines (Tallinder and Lydman), and Myers, who APPEARS to be top pairing calibre but still has not proven so.