Eleven Posted May 31, 2010 Report Posted May 31, 2010 I didn't want to clutter the first page with new posts in 12 threads just to close those threads down, so I'm putting all of the final scores here. 4 Montador 3.29 5 Lydman 3.11 8 McCormick 3.51 9 Roy 3.04 10 Tallinder 3.04 12 Mancari 2.81 13 Kennedy 3.90 17 Torres 1.87 19 Connolly 1.92 21 Stafford 1.82 22 Mair 2.57 25 Grier 4.26 26 Vanek 4.15 28 Gaustad 2.93 29 Pominville 3.17 30 Miller 4.55 34 Butler 3.06 36 Kaleta 4.36 37 Ellis 2.97 40 Lalime 2.03 42 Gerbe 3.37 44 Sekera 3.13 52 Rivet 2.26 55 Hecht 3.44 57 Myers 4.87 63 Ennis 4.29 I don't necessarily agree with the collective wisdom on each of these scores, but there are only two that I found surprising: (1) Kennedy. Did Len Lenihan mobilize his South Buffalo machine and get the boy some votes? If someone asked me where I thought his score would come in, I would have predicted a number much closer to 3 than to 4. I didn't know he was so highly regarded here. (2) Ennis. Again, I expected a lower number, somewhere around 3.25 or so. Myers, Miller, and Kaleta are the three most beloved, and Myers had a statistically significant edge over Miller. (I'll leave it to Carp to provide an analysis of z-scores or standard deviations or whatever.) Not surprising. Stafford just beat out Torres for the first vote off of the island, and Connolly wasn't far behind. At forward, we seem to like thegood muckers-and-grinders (Grier, Kaleta, McCormick, Kennedy) more than the good offensive talent (Pominville, Hecht, Connolly (I want him gone, but he did put up points during the regular season)), although where the scorer is a very good, rather than good, scorer (Vanek), or at least so perceived (Ennis), that value is recognized. The not-so-good muckers-and-grinders were not so highly regarded. Of the forwards who regularly played this season, the top votes, in order, were Kaleta, Grier, and Vanek. Interesting, but not surprising. I don't need to repeat who the worst three were, and that was neither interesting nor surprising. In general, people seem satisfied with the defense; only one defenseman (Craig Rivet) had a score under 3, and that may be partially attributable to his status as captain. Behind Myers, Steve Montador had the highest vote among defensemen. I guess that's another surprise. I realize he was the first one up for a vote, but by the time voting was closed eight days later, people had a good idea of how the poll worked.
shrader Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 At forward, we seem to like thegood muckers-and-grinders (Grier, Kaleta, McCormick, Kennedy) more than the good offensive talent (Pominville, Hecht, Connolly (I want him gone, but he did put up points during the regular season)), although where the scorer is a very good, rather than good, scorer (Vanek), or at least so perceived (Ennis), that value is recognized. The not-so-good muckers-and-grinders were not so highly regarded. Of the forwards who regularly played this season, the top votes, in order, were Kaleta, Grier, and Vanek. Interesting, but not surprising. I don't need to repeat who the worst three were, and that was neither interesting nor surprising. There really is no right or wrong, but your first sentence above really says a lot about this fanbase (well, on this board anyway). I think what Grier brought was pretty obvious, but I'm not so sure why Kaleta, Kennedy, and especially McCormick are so high. Kaleta and Kennedy have a bit of that local boy thing going for them, but otherwise, they're mostly dime-a-dozen type players. Then there's the very limited showing from McCormick.
SwampD Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 There really is no right or wrong, but your first sentence above really says a lot about this fanbase (well, on this board anyway). I think what Grier brought was pretty obvious, but I'm not so sure why Kaleta, Kennedy, and especially McCormick are so high. Kaleta and Kennedy have a bit of that local boy thing going for them, but otherwise, they're mostly dime-a-dozen type players. Then there's the very limited showing from McCormick. I think it's because it looked like they actually had a pulse. The rest of them are so G## D### BORING!.. the same play, the same post game interviews. They are the dime a dozen players.
shrader Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 I think it's because it looked like they actually had a pulse. The rest of them are so G## D### BORING!.. the same play, the same post game interviews. They are the dime a dozen players. Yeah, the rest of the roster absolutely factors in, but I don't see how just having a pulse suddenly makes a marginal player a must keep. You give me a team full of those guys and I'll show you a perennial 13 seed.
billsrcursed Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 Eleven, thanks again for doing all of this. I didn't necessarily participate in every one, but it was a great read and an awesome idea. I'm sure I speak for everyone in saying we appreciate the effort!! :thumbsup: P.S. - I'd take 13 Kaleta's anytime. :nana:
wonderbread Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 Nice work Eleven. :thumbsup: Some results were obvious. Others questionable. either way glad to play along. ;)
carpandean Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 I'll leave it to Carp to provide an analysis of z-scores or standard deviations or whatever. I reject your science and substitute my own.
Kristian Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 I think it's because it looked like they actually had a pulse. The rest of them are so G## D### BORING!.. the same play, the same post game interviews. They are the dime a dozen players. This. They simply have to be the most uninspiring, god-awful boring, completely indifferent Sabres team I've ever watched.
Kristian Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 Yeah, the rest of the roster absolutely factors in, but I don't see how just having a pulse suddenly makes a marginal player a must keep. You give me a team full of those guys and I'll show you a perennial 13 seed. Some would argue, that apart from Miller, that's pretty much how it already is? That said, you're right. Working hard alone shouldn't be enough qualification for a roster spot on an NHL team. Just goes to show how the "top-6" can make 4th liners and AHL'ers look like a breath of fresh air :wallbash:
LabattBlue Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 This. They simply have to be the most uninspiring, god-awful boring, completely indifferent Sabres team I've ever watched. YES!!!!
Buffalo Wings Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 There really is no right or wrong, but your first sentence above really says a lot about this fanbase (well, on this board anyway). I think what Grier brought was pretty obvious, but I'm not so sure why Kaleta, Kennedy, and especially McCormick are so high. Kaleta and Kennedy have a bit of that local boy thing going for them, but otherwise, they're mostly dime-a-dozen type players. Then there's the very limited showing from McCormick. I also think a lot has to do with their performances in the playoffs. Grier was the best forward on the ice outside of Vanke in Games 1-2...Kennedy didn't blow us away, but didn't disappoint, either...Kaleta was a bit absent, but we all like his agitator-who-can-score bit...and McCormick was a fresh body that was bigger than the stale, Adam Mair types. I'd still be happy content with these four on the roster in 2010-11.
Realist Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 They simply have to be the most uninspiring, god-awful boring, completely indifferent Sabres team I've ever watched. The key word here is "indifferent", that's how they played in the playoffs.
That Aud Smell Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 thanks for all of the work on this, eleven. the only surprise to me was kennedy, and i think the hometown pride factored in there.
Eleven Posted June 1, 2010 Author Report Posted June 1, 2010 How many people voted? It's a different total for each poll, but the poll itself (for each player) will show you.
Eleven Posted June 1, 2010 Author Report Posted June 1, 2010 No coach vote? :ph34r: About ten days ago, I explained that I'd like to see this, but I have no idea how the choices should be worded. Have at it!
shrader Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 I also think a lot has to do with their performances in the playoffs. Grier was the best forward on the ice outside of Vanke in Games 1-2...Kennedy didn't blow us away, but didn't disappoint, either...Kaleta was a bit absent, but we all like his agitator-who-can-score bit...and McCormick was a fresh body that was bigger than the stale, Adam Mair types. I'd still be happy content with these four on the roster in 2010-11. I still wonder how much those scores would have dropped if Kaleta and Kennedy were from Minnesota. Eh, who am I kidding? They never would have been on the team in the first place. And I don't mean to imply that them being here is a bad thing. These are two cases where giving a local kid a shot has created an asset for the team.
MattPie Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 I don't necessarily agree with the collective wisdom on each of these scores, but there are only two that I found surprising: (1) Kennedy. Did Len Lenihan mobilize his South Buffalo machine and get the boy some votes? If someone asked me where I thought his score would come in, I would have predicted a number much closer to 3 than to 4. I didn't know he was so highly regarded here. (2) Ennis. Again, I expected a lower number, somewhere around 3.25 or so. Myers, Miller, and Kaleta are the three most beloved, and Myers had a statistically significant edge over Miller. (I'll leave it to Carp to provide an analysis of z-scores or standard deviations or whatever.) Not surprising. I'm have to guess the kids are getting the 'new guy bump'. They haven't been around long enough for the posters here to find flaw in their game and hammer on it mercilessly.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 I didn't vote on many, but I will say that I was most impressed with Kennedy over any other player in the playoffs. His little body was all over the place, he was playing nasty, and he has enough talent to contribute on offense. Yes, Recchi smoked him, but you don't get smoked unless you actually put your balls on the line to get smoked. Before the playoffs i would have had Kennedy as cannon fodder, like 80% of this team. He's one of the few I really respect now. Ennis is a cute little story, but I don't know if he will have longevity. He was trying out there. The problem as always.....Darcy sees skill and grit as mutually exclusive. Has so from the beginning, and why there are no TRUE leaders on the team. We need a Jack Bauer, and he gives us Charles Logan.
cdexchange Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 You should have sorted the list by score, rather than jersey number. Thanks for nothing, ya basterd. :lol:
nfreeman Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 There really is no right or wrong, but your first sentence above really says a lot about this fanbase (well, on this board anyway). I think what Grier brought was pretty obvious, but I'm not so sure why Kaleta, Kennedy, and especially McCormick are so high. Kaleta and Kennedy have a bit of that local boy thing going for them, but otherwise, they're mostly dime-a-dozen type players. Then there's the very limited showing from McCormick. I'd agree with characterizing Mair and McCormick this way, but not Kaleta or Kennedy. I think Kaleta has Sean Avery potential (and I mean that in a positive way, as Avery has frequently been the Rangers' most effective forward), and Kennedy has #2 line potential. I didn't vote on many, but I will say that I was most impressed with Kennedy over any other player in the playoffs. His little body was all over the place, he was playing nasty, and he has enough talent to contribute on offense. Yes, Recchi smoked him, but you don't get smoked unless you actually put your balls on the line to get smoked. Before the playoffs i would have had Kennedy as cannon fodder, like 80% of this team. He's one of the few I really respect now. Ennis is a cute little story, but I don't know if he will have longevity. He was trying out there. The problem as always.....Darcy sees skill and grit as mutually exclusive. Has so from the beginning, and why there are no TRUE leaders on the team. We need a Jack Bauer, and he gives us Charles Logan. Any support for the bolded statement? Has he ever said anything remotely like this? Why on earth would he (or you) think this? If your answer is that we don't have Brenden Morrow or Ryan Kesler or Henrik Zetterberg on the team -- that's not an answer. There just aren't that many guys in the NHL like that, and everyone wants them. DR did trade for Doug Gilmour and Chris Drury, two guys with skill and grit. Hopefully there's another one coming this summer.
shrader Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 The problem as always.....Darcy sees skill and grit as mutually exclusive. Has so from the beginning, and why there are no TRUE leaders on the team. We need a Jack Bauer, and he gives us Charles Logan. Shut up. Charles Logan is awesome!
SwampD Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 You should have sorted the list by score, rather than jersey number. Thanks for nothing, ya basterd. :lol: Here you go. 21 Stafford 1.82 17 Torres 1.87 19 Connolly 1.92 40 Lalime 2.03 52 Rivet 2.26 22 Mair 2.57 12 Mancari 2.81 28 Gaustad 2.93 37 Ellis 2.97 9 Roy 3.04 10 Tallinder 3.04 34 Butler 3.06 5 Lydman 3.11 44 Sekera 3.13 29 Pominville 3.17 4 Montador 3.29 42 Gerbe 3.37 55 Hecht 3.44 8 McCormick 3.51 13 Kennedy 3.90 26 Vanek 4.15 25 Grier 4.26 63 Ennis 4.29 36 Kaleta 4.36 30 Miller 4.55 57 Myers 4.87 or O 21 Stafford 1.82 17 Torres 1.87 19 Connolly 1.92 22 Mair 2.57 12 Mancari 2.81 28 Gaustad 2.93 37 Ellis 2.97 9 Roy 3.04 29 Pominville 3.17 42 Gerbe 3.37 55 Hecht 3.44 8 McCormick 3.51 13 Kennedy 3.90 26 Vanek 4.15 25 Grier 4.26 63 Ennis 4.29 36 Kaleta 4.36 D 52 Rivet 2.26 10 Tallinder 3.04 34 Butler 3.06 5 Lydman 3.11 44 Sekera 3.13 4 Montador 3.29 57 Myers 4.87 G 40 Lalime 2.03 30 Miller 4.55
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted June 1, 2010 Report Posted June 1, 2010 I'd agree with characterizing Mair and McCormick this way, but not Kaleta or Kennedy. I think Kaleta has Sean Avery potential (and I mean that in a positive way, as Avery has frequently been the Rangers' most effective forward), and Kennedy has #2 line potential. Any support for the bolded statement? Has he ever said anything remotely like this? Why on earth would he (or you) think this? If your answer is that we don't have Brenden Morrow or Ryan Kesler or Henrik Zetterberg on the team -- that's not an answer. There just aren't that many guys in the NHL like that, and everyone wants them. DR did trade for Doug Gilmour and Chris Drury, two guys with skill and grit. Hopefully there's another one coming this summer. Umm.....Briere, Dumont, Drury, Grier....all gone over a 12 month period. There are 2 guys on the current roster that COULD qualify and that is Myers and Vanek. Stafford and Gaustad could as well over time, but they have failed in one or both categories so far. We don't even have a guy like Donald Audette....maybe Kennedy can be that guy. I've been naming talented guys with grit that were available the past 4 years.....but Darcy wasn't willing to part with Paille and MaCarthur for Guerin and Roberts. He loves his babies....once someone actually proves themselves in multiple fronts, time to move on. Bernier got a 10 game audition. Too slow, right? Slow enough to outscore every Sabre in the first round while playing on Canuck's 3rd line. (Sedin effect my ######). Darcy is the prime example of never having "It".....so he doesn't know what "It" looks like.
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