NHL 2ND ROUND PLAYOFF DISCUSSION

[Stoner]

The deeper we get into the playoffs, the more I hate Lindy's system.

 

It's unbelievable how much more exciting hockey can be than what we saw this year from the Sabres.

 

And it's not the players.

 

Lindy is clinically depressed and ######-bent on dragging everyone else down with him. Honest to God, I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

[deluca67]

I'll answer with a question. Why does Vanek have to be the best two way player in the league? (Ruff's little project from last year)

 

Why can't he just score goals, especially because he's actually pretty good in our own end.

I think that is a organizational decision based on the contract he signed. If he is not going to be a solid "two way" player then he needs to be a elite goal scorer. Needs much more than 28 goals to justify his contract.

[SwampD]

I think that is a organizational decision based on the contract he signed. If he is not going to be a solid "two way" player then he needs to be a elite goal scorer. Needs much more than 28 goals to justify his contract.

That's a really stupid philosophy then. I don't ever want to see Vanek blocking a shot. That's what Mair and Gaustad are for. It's not a coincidence that so many "important" Sabres are always hurt by the end of the season.

[deluca67]

That's a really stupid philosophy then. I don't ever want to see Vanek blocking a shot. That's what Mair and Gaustad are for. It's not a coincidence that so many "important" Sabres are always hurt by the end of the season.

Crosby blocked more shots (43) than Gaustad (34) and Mair (13). Just saying.

[SwampD]

Crosby blocked more shots (43) than Gaustad (34) and Mair (13). Just saying.

I don't know this and there is probably no way to find out, but I would bet that all of Mair and Goose's blocks were point shot slappers from about 15 feet away, where Sidney's were probably him getting in the way of up close wristers.

[deluca67]

I don't know this and there is probably no way to find out, but I would bet that all of Mair and Goose's blocks were point shot slappers from about 15 feet away, where Sidney's were probably him getting in the way of up close wristers.

Really? :doh:

[SwampD]

Really? :doh:

yep. Do you really not think the Sabres play an overly defensive system to the detriment of their offense. On defense, everyone is cupping Millers balls just waiting for bombs from the points.

[Buffalo Wings]

Goodbye, Detroit. Thanks for playing.

 

We'll at least have a new Finals participant from the West. I'm still pulling for Chicago.

[deluca67]

yep. Do you really not think the Sabres play an overly defensive system to the detriment of their offense. On defense, everyone is cupping Millers balls just waiting for bombs from the points.

Considering how many shots the Sabres blocked I would say if that was their plan they failed miserably. They gave up many shots and blocked few.

[Eleven]

Sami Salo--OUCH!

[Kristian]

I think that is a organizational decision based on the contract he signed. If he is not going to be a solid "two way" player then he needs to be a elite goal scorer. Needs much more than 28 goals to justify his contract.

 

Could be, but if that's the case it's just another stupid decision from the FO.

 

40 goal scorers don't just grow on trees, and when you're fortunate enough to actually have one, who's already decent enough on defense, there's absolutely no need to make him focus further on his defensive game, unless it's not hurting his offensive production in any way.

 

Clearly Vanek's offense has been suffering, hence I question management if they did in fact make such a decision. If they have half a brain combined, they must be able to realise that landing a 40 goal scorer is heckuva lot more difficult than landing a defensive forward.

 

Therefore, trying to turn your 40 goal guy into a Selke candidate is just plain stupid.

 

I realise Vanek's offensive output doesn't match his salary.

 

Well, you're sure as heck not going to get more production out of him playing him only 14 mins a game, tying him down with checking line duties either, and even the best two-way guys in the game aren't paid that kind of money, so what's the plan here?

 

The Sabres wanted to pay him 7 mill. a year, then let him do what he does best - Play in the other guys end.

 

I realise Kevin Lowe forced their hand, but if they were planning to mold him into Curtis Brown all along, then they need to get their heads checked out for paying him than kind of money, regardless of the DB/CD situation.

 

Of course that is an entirely possible scenario. That they are in fact stupid enough to pay a guy 7 mill. bucks for scoring 40 points a year, and stand next to Miller on every other occassion where he gets to fish the puck out of his net.

[SwampD]

Could be, but if that's the case it's just another stupid decision from the FO.

 

40 goal scorers don't just grow on trees, and when you're fortunate enough to actually have one, who's already decent enough on defense, there's absolutely no need to make him focus further on his defensive game, unless it's not hurting his offensive production in any way.

 

Clearly Vanek's offense has been suffering, hence I question management if they did in fact make such a decision. If they have half a brain combined, they must be able to realise that landing a 40 goal scorer is heckuva lot more difficult than landing a defensive forward.

 

Therefore, trying to turn your 40 goal guy into a Selke candidate is just plain stupid.

 

I realise Vanek's offensive output doesn't match his salary.

 

Well, you're sure as heck not going to get more production out of him playing him only 14 mins a game, tying him down with checking line duties either, and even the best two-way guys in the game aren't paid that kind of money, so what's the plan here?

 

The Sabres wanted to pay him 7 mill. a year, then let him do what he does best - Play in the other guys end.

 

I realise Kevin Lowe forced their hand, but if they were planning to mold him into Curtis Brown all along, then they need to get their heads checked out for paying him than kind of money, regardless of the DB/CD situation.

 

Of course that is an entirely possible scenario. That they are in fact stupid enough to pay a guy 7 mill. bucks for scoring 40 points a year, and stand next to Miller on every other occassion where he gets to fish the puck out of his net.

:thumbsup:

[Stoner]

I realise Vanek's offensive output doesn't match his salary.

True for 09-10, but before that, his production was astounding relative to his ice time. More goals/minute of ice time than Ovechkin, as I've shown in other threads.

 

Lindy needs to stop being so stubborn, realize he's not coaching a Lindy Ruff clone and give the guy the green light to score goals. And, oh yeah, about 21 minutes of ice time a night.

[carpandean]

True for 09-10, but before that, his production was astounding relative to his ice time. More goals/minute of ice time than Ovechkin, as I've shown in other threads.

 

Lindy needs to stop being so stubborn, realize he's not coaching a Lindy Ruff clone and give the guy the green light to score goals. And, oh yeah, about 21 minutes of ice time a night.

As I showed in the Bill Hoppe thread, this is very misleading. With the exception of 2006-07 when he was on that Vanek-Roy-Afinogenov third line and had wildly better stats at home (30G/20A/50P/+30 vs. 13G/21/34P/+17) when Lindy chose the matchups, he has only led OV is one "per minute TOI" stat: power play goals. He has trailed OV in every other category, including power play points, 5-on-5 goals and 5-on-5 points (they both have a couple/few shorties, too.) His production (points, not just goals) per minute on the PP is worse and 5-on-5 is far worse (29-51% lower, in the three season before this one) than OV's. If you want to argue that he needs more PP ice time, fine, but he's already on the #1 unit. 5-on-5, his numbers aren't all that special and a shadow of what OV does.

[Stoner]

As I showed in the Bill Hoppe thread, this is very misleading. With the exception of 2006-07 when he was on that Vanek-Roy-Afinogenov third line and had wildly better stats at home (30G/20A/50P/+30 vs. 13G/21/34P/+17) when Lindy chose the matchups, he has only led OV is one "per minute TOI" stat: power play goals. He has trailed OV in every other category, including power play points, 5-on-5 goals and 5-on-5 points (they both have a couple/few shorties, too.) His production (points, not just goals) per minute on the PP is worse and 5-on-5 is far worse (29-51% lower, in the three season before this one) than OV's. If you want to argue that he needs more PP ice time, fine, but he's already on the #1 unit. 5-on-5, his numbers aren't all that special and a shadow of what OV does.

 

Dude, seriously, who cares. You win 5-1, no one is worried about what percentage of the goals were scored four-on-four, or shorthanded, or with 1.3% of the fans eating nachos, well below the league average of 3.5%.

 

Vanek and Ovechkin, minute for minute, before this season, Vanek scores more goals. Period.

 

You can make the numbers jump threw all the hoops you want, but that's a fact.

 

The argument is so simple even you can't obfuscate it -- Vanek needs to be on the ice more. EDIT: on the ice more IN ALL SITUATIONS, including shorthanded. You have a 40-goal scorer who has shown a knack for scoring shorthanded goals, you're down a goal with five minutes left and shorthanded, and Ruff never puts the guy on the ice. That's incredible.

[carpandean]

Dude, seriously, who cares. You win 5-1

:rolleyes:

 

If you want to keep throwing that stat out like it's a masterpiece you've created that proves how incompetent Lindy is and how simply playing Vanek more would make the Sabres far more productive, then I will throw out the counter-points (which, by the way, I've only done twice now, while you've stated your point far more times.)

 

 

Vanek and Ovechkin, minute for minute, before this season, Vanek scores more goals. Period.

I missed your original post on this, but what numbers did you use?

 

2005-06 through 2008-09:

Ovechkin: 219 G in 7209 min TOI = 0.0304 G/minTOI

Vanek: 144G in 5206 min TOI = 0.0277 G/minTOI

 

Even if you look at 2006-07 to 2008-09, it's 0.0306 for OV and 0.0297 for Vanek.

 

 

The argument is so simple even you can't obfuscate it -- Vanek needs to be on the ice more. EDIT: on the ice more IN ALL SITUATIONS, including shorthanded. You have a 40-goal scorer who has shown a knack for scoring shorthanded goals, you're down a goal with five minutes left and shorthanded, and Ruff never puts the guy on the ice. That's incredible.

It's fine to say that he needs more minutes, period, but when his strength has been PP goals, how does playing him more 5-on-5 help? If they want to Kovalchuk him on the PP, then that might be justified. However, just giving him more minutes 5-on-5 may not help his production and may, in fact, hurt it.

 

As for having a knack for short-handed goals, OV had more in his first year, 3, than Vanek has had in his entire career. Despite that, OV was barely used SH for the next two seasons. He got more time last season, which netted him just one more shorty. Despite that, he was back to almost no SH time this year. That's a multi-time 50+ goal scorer with a "knack for scoring shorties" that isn't getting short-handed time. However, I will agree that I'd be trying Vanek shorthanded at the end of the game when trailing.

[shrader]

Tell me if I'm remembering this incorrectly, but those shorthanded goals by Vanek, weren't they plays where Dan Paille did the grunt work to get the puck out of the zone, then broke out two-on-one with Vanek, setting him up for the goals?

[spndnchz]

Tell me if I'm remembering this incorrectly, but those shorthanded goals by Vanek, weren't they plays where Dan Paille did the grunt work to get the puck out of the zone, then broke out two-on-one with Vanek, setting him up for the goals?

 

 

[Stoner]

 

I missed your original post on this, but what numbers did you use?

 

2005-06 through 2008-09:

Ovechkin: 219 G in 7209 min TOI = 0.0304 G/minTOI

Vanek: 144G in 5206 min TOI = 0.0277 G/minTOI

 

Even if you look at 2006-07 to 2008-09, it's 0.0306 for OV and 0.0297 for Vanek.

 

 

On Nov. 10, 2009 at 1:32 p.m., in the Hoppe thread, I was referring to the 2008-09 season.

 

Your numbers, I will accept. The difference is pretty slight, which would shock a lot of people.

 

Give OV Vanek's ice time, and how many goals would be score? Is he a Superman who would somehow compensate?

[biodork]

Sami Salo--OUCH!

 

Holy smokes, no kidding -- I didn't see that game but just read this:

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Video-Sami-Salo-takes-puck-to-groin-hospitaliz;_ylt=AmzyThnqw5x2Tlnzvo48b45hv6F4?urn=nhl,239744

 

What's kinda funny (in a twisted way) is the guy who wrote the article sarcastically (yet correctly) predicted one of those "history will be made" commercials would soon follow:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pZoYw3kcKo

 

Edit: the link didn't post correctly, but here is a different one:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/10/sami-salo-injury-video-ru_n_569778.html

[carpandean]

On Nov. 10, 2009 at 1:32 p.m., in the Hoppe thread, I was referring to the 2008-09 season.

Yeah, Vanek had an insane 0.071 G/min PPTOI last year, which was much higher than OV's 0.041. OV still beat him out by quite a bit 5-on-5, but Vanek definitely ruled on the PP. Although, OV did have 0.108 P/min PPTOI to Vanek's 0.093.

 

While I'm still not convinced that giving Vanek tons more ES time would do much, I will concede that he needs more PP time. Maybe, they could have Goose on one unit and Stafford (or some other big body player) on the other. Then, Vanek could play on both, trading off who stands in front of the net (I can't imagine two minutes of being that guy.)

[SwampD]

Yeah, Vanek had an insane 0.071 G/min PPTOI last year, which was much higher than OV's 0.041. OV still beat him out by quite a bit 5-on-5, but Vanek definitely ruled on the PP. Although, OV did have 0.108 P/min PPTOI to Vanek's 0.093.

 

While I'm still not convinced that giving Vanek tons more ES time would do much, I will concede that he needs more PP time. Maybe, they could have Goose on one unit and Stafford (or some other big body player) on the other. Then, Vanek could play on both, trading off who stands in front of the net (I can't imagine two minutes of being that guy.)

I wish they would would use him more like the way Montreal(and then Ottawa) used Kovalev on the PP. As good as Vanek is at the trip drill, the thought of him standing in the way of a slapshot from Myers, getting injured again isn't that appealing to me.

[darksabre]

Man, Boston sucks.

[Eleven]

1. Glad to see the Habs-Pens series go to 7. That is going to be one fun game to watch.

 

2. From TSN's front page tonight: "Michael Leighton came off the bench after Brian Boucher was injured and made 14 saves to complete the combined shutout on Monday night, leading Philadelphia to a 4-0 victory over the Boston Bruins 4-0 and helping the Flyers avoid elimination in Game 5 of the best-of-seven Eastern Conference semifinals."

 

Who knew that a 4-0 victory would end up 4-0? Seems slightly suspicious to me...

[deluca67]

1. Glad to see the Habs-Pens series go to 7. That is going to be one fun game to watch.

 

2. From TSN's front page tonight: "Michael Leighton came off the bench after Brian Boucher was injured and made 14 saves to complete the combined shutout on Monday night, leading Philadelphia to a 4-0 victory over the Boston Bruins 4-0 and helping the Flyers avoid elimination in Game 5 of the best-of-seven Eastern Conference semifinals."

 

Who knew that a 4-0 victory would end up 4-0? Seems slightly suspicious to me...

Suspicious? No, Poor editing? Yes.

 

I hope Philly/Boston goes 7 as well.